Power Mac Workgroup Server 9650/350

Discussion in 'PowerPC Macs' started by dermeister, Oct 23, 2015.

?

Have I gone insane?

  1. Yes. Complete waste of time and money.

    3 vote(s)
    21.4%
  2. No way, this is awesome.

    11 vote(s)
    78.6%
  1. dermeister, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015

    dermeister macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #1
    So I've picked up a PM WGS 9650/350 with the following:
    • RAM: 192 MB
    • PCI cards: IX Micro 4 MB (video), Ultra-SCSI-3 Card
    • Media drives: Floppy (1st bay), 24x CD (2nd bay)
    • Hard drives: 2 GB SCSI (Top mount), 4 GB SCSI (3rd bay), 4.5 GB SCSI (4th bay)
    My goal is to upgrade it to the hilt. It's the most expandable Mac ever made with 6 PCI slots, 4 drive bays, 3 drive mounts, 12 RAM slots, and a CPU daughter card slot, so this seems like the best thing to do:)

    I plan to eventually install Mac OS 9.2.2 (OS 9 Helper), Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 (Rhapsody), and Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard (XPostFacto + someone has figured out how), each on a separate HD.

    I've ordered the following from OWC and eBay:
    • RAM: 12x 128 MB = 1.5 GB (Maxed out)
    • Video card: ATI Radeon 9200 Mac Edition PCI (Best PCI video card possible)
    • SATA Controller: Sonnet Tempo SATA PCI (two SATA disks will be great - SSD?)
    ...and done a fresh install of 9.1 on the 4 GB SCSI. The 2 GB SCSI has audio stuff left over from the person who sold it to me.

    Here's what I want to add:
    • Gigabit Ethernet PCI
    • Sonnet G4 Upgrade 1 GHz (or any G4 800 MHz)
    • PM 9600 original Zip drive with bezel for 3rd bay
    • Largest SCSI-3 that is quiet, if that exists? (for top drive mount)
    • Largest monitor for Radeon 9200 (max 2048x1536), preferably wide-screen
    Which would leave me with 2 PCI slots left (more USB? Surround 5.1/7.1 sound card? Another Tempo Trio?)

    Appreciate any help in locating these items or advising which to get (example what GBE card).

    UPDATES

    RAM: 1.5 GB
    CPU: G3 350 (ordered Sonnet Crescendo G4 800 MHz)
    Video card: ATI Radeon 9200 128 MB
    Internal SCSI: Mac OS 9.2.2
    SATA SSD 120 GB No 1: Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger
    SATA SSD 120 GB No 2: Will install Leopard
    USB: Sonnet Allegro USB 2 PCI Card
    GBE: SOHO GBE PCI Card
     
  2. ToroidalZeus macrumors 68020

    ToroidalZeus

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    #2
    That computer belongs in a muesuem.

    I think you'd be better off case modding a Power Mac G5 into a regular ATX hackintosh.
     
  3. dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #3
    That's true. I'm thinking along the lines of making it a usable show-piece. My dad had one (9600/350) back in 97 so it has a lot of nostalgia value for both of us.

    I currently use a Mac Pro 2012 as my main machine, and plan on buying whatever the new 2016 Mac Pro is that supports retina displays. Hackintoshes don't interest me too much to be honest.
     
  4. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #4
    Ignore @ToroidalZeus , who is a perpetual troll who comes in here and tells us to hackintosh everyhing. Most of us who hang around here enjoy getting as much out of these old machines as we can.

    I really can't say anything, as I have an ongoing project to max out an 8600 including 1gb of RAM and several other things-including the cards you've listed. Mine already has an 800mhz Sonnet G4. A processor upgrade is very worthwhile, especially a G4 if you can find one(as always, Sonnet is a top choice). There are also "slocket" adapters that will allow you to fit your choice of G3/G4 ZIF processors out there-the ZIFs are a lot more plentiful than upgrades for the processor slot.

    I chose the 8600 because I don't want to get rid of the dual processors in my 9600.

    Your upgrade list sounds pretty reasonable, although if money is not necessarily a barrier I'd replace your Sonnet ATA card with a Sonnet SATA card(or two). SATA offers a big advantage in this type of upgrade as the drives are generally larger, faster, quieter, cooler, more available, and less expensive than ATA. If you want to be period correct, get a "Jackhammer" card and throw as many 68 pin SCSIs as you can afford. Look for 15Ks, as I find 10Ks to be obnoxious.

    I don't mean to discourage from putting a GigE card in, but I'm not sure how much advantage you'd get out of it since the 9650 only has 32 bit slots(all the GigE cards I've seen are 64 bit) and you already have a lot of traffic on your PCI bus. In practice, it may not be much faster than a 10/100 card(although I haven't tried it) and it tends to be a lot easier to find drivers/extensions for 10/100 cards(especially Asante) than GigE cards. I had an Intel-based GigE card in a computer that caused KPs when I installed Leopard, so just said forget it. You do definitely want at least a 10/100 card, though, as the onboard 10baseT is painful.

    BTW, use OS 9 helper to install 9.2.2. It's a big improvement over 9.1(which I think is a bit of a pig). I sometimes think Apple put an artificial limit of 9.1 on these computers to help push the G3+ series. I'd put my 9600/200MP up against a 233mhz G3 any day.
     
  5. dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #5
    By G3/G4 ZIF, do you mean... replacing the CPU on the CPU daughter card instead of finding an upgrade daughter card? The 350 card is a 704ev so there's no way I'd mutilate it:) If so I'll have to wait for a 700-1000 MHz G4 card to fall out of the sky.

    I had no idea that there are SATA controllers for the 9600 - I figured that IDE was the best it could take!!! I just requested that the order be cancelled. Hopefully it's not too late. Two SATA drives would be a very nice upgrade.

    To confirm - is the SATA controller you are referring to this one: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonnet Technologies/TSATA/

    I also read that the partition sizes are limited to 190 GB in Mac OS 9. Is that true? Sounds big enough either way:)

    If there is no GBE card that supports OS 9, I guess there's no choice. Do you recommend any specific MBE card that is very stable/compatible with OS9/X?

    I'm going to try OS 9 Helper now!
     
  6. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #6
    That is the SATA card. APM(Apple Partition Map) is limited to 2TB, although honestly I'm not sure of the partition size in OS 9. I'm almost positive I'm running a bigger partition in one of my MDDs(probably 250gb or so) but couldn't swear to it.

    The "Slocket" replaces the complete daughter card and just gives you a ZIF socket to put whatever G3 or G4 you want on it. I don't blame you for not wanting to mutilate the 350mhz 604ev-that's a superb processor. The upgrade options I mentioned don't require this.

    I don't have a specific recommendation for a 10/100 card, but do know that I've had good luck with Asante(to the point that many are plug and play in OS 9 and earlier). Check with Sonnet, because if they make one you can be pretty much guaranteed that it will work.
     
  7. dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #7
    So waiiiit... You mean I could use this "slocket", which is basically a daughter card sans processor, and plop any G4 ZIF? If so, where can I find one? Nothing on eBay for G3 or G4 ZIF.

    Thanks!
     
  8. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #8
    The G3 and G4 ZIFs come up for sale, although you have to be patient and watch for them. Probably the most readily available source for G4s at least is the Yikes! G4, but these topped out at 400mhz(I think). Since you already have 350mhz 604, I'd probably hold out for a higher speed(700mhz+) G4 whether as a daughter card or ZIF+slocket unless you're just chomping at the bits to run OS X. BTW, thanks to the hard work of @LightBulbFun , you can actually run Tiger on a 604(I've done it on both my 8600 and 9600), but there's somewhat of a shortage of software.

    I have a couple of G3s, but most are low spec left over from computers I've upgraded. The last decent G3 I had was a 400mhz out of a B&W that went into a beige desktop(the B&W got a 450mhz G4). I have a beige G3 at work that has a 1ghz Sonnet ZIF.
     
  9. LightBulbFun macrumors 6502a

    LightBulbFun

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2013
    Location:
    London UK
    #9
    these Slockets are handy for ZIF CPUs pulled from G4 and G3 Macs they do not work well/at all with the higher speed G4 ZIF CPUs Sonnet offered so if you are looking for a 700Mhz or faster G4 stick with looking for a Sonnet crosendo. Btw I had a look at the sonnet tempo trio and it looks like a Windows only card? i cant see any mention of OS X on its page... Btw the 9600/350 and esp the WGS version of it are very rare its a nice find you got there... if you want you could install Tiger OS X 10.4.11 on the original 604ev CPU I made a Kernel for 603/604 CPUs http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/os-x-tiger-on-a-603-604-cpu.1908276/ (it would be very interesting to get geekbench results or CPU benchmarks of a 350Mhz 604ev and compare it to a 350Mhz 750 and 7400) Btw the fatest 604 based machine apple made is indeed your 350Mhz 9600 (the fastest 604 ever made but not used by apple topped out at 400Mhz)
     
  10. dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #10
    Very interesting! I always remembered that my dad's PM9600 was the "best" at the time, and even arguably better than the first G3 233. When I saw a 9600/350 on Kijiji, I jumped at it. I forget what I paid - I think like $100 (I know, wow). When I saw that it was actually a 9650, I was totally amazed - I realized that I had found a unicorn. I read that the 9600/350 was ended early because it was making the G3 look bad and so it was rare enough. The WGS version must be incredibly rare. I wonder if there are any public sales figures?

    I wonder what performance it would have in 10.5 with a G4 1 GHz? Because 10.5 would be pretty... Modern! That said 9.2.2 is OK. But it would be really cool if I could get the noise down with SATA and and actually do stuff with it using 10.5. The only problem is that from what I've read the Sonnet 1 GHz G4 is also a unicorn:)
     
  11. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #11
    No judgement from me-I'd have paid $100 for it in a minute!
     
  12. dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #12
    Just ordered the Sonnet SATA controller - this is too addictive.

    Edit: The built-in speaker is obviously really bad. I can plug in externals, but it will be a mere 2.1. Are there any 5.1/7.1 or optical sound cards? :)
     
  13. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #13
    I have a Sonnet SATA in a Digital Audio G4 along with a 2.0ghz 7448-based Newertech upgrade(and a FireXl G3 flashed into an X800XT) and the whole package makes for a great computer.

    As I mentioned, the nice thing with SATA is that you can take advantage of newer, quieter, cooler, and faster hard drives. I think it's a good upgrade for anyone trying to milk every little bit of performance out of an older system, even if for no other reason than the fact that SATA drives will keep temperatures down in your case.
     
  14. LightBulbFun macrumors 6502a

    LightBulbFun

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2013
    Location:
    London UK
    #14
    Just thought Id Mention indeed OS9 has a hard drive cap of 190GB (it wont boot on a volume bigger then that you can install OS9 to say a 1TB drive but you need it to be in the 1st 190GB of it if that makes sense) also I think (tho not much documentation on it) that the sonnet SATA card works all the way back to System 7.5 heh
     
  15. dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #15
    So let's say I have a 1 TB drive and want the entire TB to be usable. How do I format? (190, 190, 190, 190, 190 ,50)? Or can I do (190, 810)?
     
  16. LightBulbFun macrumors 6502a

    LightBulbFun

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2013
    Location:
    London UK
    #16
    it would be 190+810 so for example you could have a 190GB partition with OS9 on it and then a 810GB one with OS X 10.5.8 on it. (OS9 will work with big partitions but it cant boot from them)
     
  17. dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #17
    Ahhh got it. I guess a (smaller) SSD would be overkill, but then maybe the lack of heat/noise is a good idea. Will definitely unplug the SCSI at some point to get the sound down to something reasonable.
     
  18. LightBulbFun macrumors 6502a

    LightBulbFun

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    Nov 17, 2013
    Location:
    London UK
    #18
  19. DZ/015 macrumors 6502a

    DZ/015

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2003
    Location:
    New England
    #19
    M-audio made the Revolution series in 5.1 and 7.1 flavors. Both were compatible with OS 8.6 and up. I've got a 7.1 running 9.2 in my MDD. Works well.
     
  20. ToroidalZeus macrumors 68020

    ToroidalZeus

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    #20
    You don't need SATA hard drives, 7.1 surround sound (and 2.1 is better anyways FYI), triple boot, maxed out RAM and GFX card just to have it be a bootable show piece.

    The reason I say it's a waste of money is you'll spend a few hundred dollars maxing out the specs to still have trouble or not be able to do basic things. For instance I remember my 400Mhz PowerBook G4 Ti could not Youtube without chop back in 2008 or so. You can see threads about that issue here. Can't say if 1ghz is enough to fix the issue but still. Likewise that GPU will support 1080p rez but I have a feeling it'll lag even with basic hardware acceleration. USB: If you connect an iPhone into a modern USB 3.0 Mac it'll charge at 2 amps instead of 1; in other words twice as fast. Your PCI card will be limited to 1.1 or 2, so ya even fast charging not supported. And at US

    So my point is even after all the upgrades your PC will still be borderline unusable. If you can get IDE hard drives then I would put in an IDE-CF adapter and install the OS on that instead. Get rid of mechanical hard drives altogether as they are common failure points. Then just turn on the PC and browse the web or write a word doc if you feel like it. That's all it'll be good for anyways.

    The cool think about hackintosh is it's all the tinkering of old computers except in the end you get a 100% modern device that's more powerful, cheaper or both than current Apple products; oh and the hardware is lot more stable too.
     
  21. MacCubed macrumors 68000

    MacCubed

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Location:
    Florida
    #21
    NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR MODERN IDEAS! THIS SECTION IS HERE FOR PEOPLE TO USE THIER OLDER COMPUTERS AS BOTH SHOWPIECES AND FUNCIONING NOSTALGIA. ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS MAKING THINGS "NEW" AND ARE MISLEADING PEOPLE. WE ARENT GONNA LET THIS TURN INTO THE NEXT MACBOOK SECTION SO GET OUT
     
  22. LightBulbFun macrumors 6502a

    LightBulbFun

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2013
    Location:
    London UK
    #22
    I have a 266Mhz G3 beige it mostly stock config apart from the ATI Radeon 9200 and maxed out ram... it handled my 1080p Telly with no issues since all the GUI was handled by the R9200 witch I had enabled QE on.
     
  23. MacCubed macrumors 68000

    MacCubed

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2014
    Location:
    Florida
    #23
    Just read this and that is total bull. Hackintoshes are about as unstable as you can get. Do some real world testing before you go and tell people to trash a perfectly good computer
     
  24. dermeister, Oct 25, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015

    dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #24
    Dude, this is the PPC forum. The only tangential "interest" you have in PPC is using the cases of cheap G5s as donor carcasses to your Intel Hackintoshes. In otherwords, you have ZERO interest in anything actually related to PPC-OS9 & PPC-OSX on PPC machines. What the heck are you doing here? Telling us that old computers are slow and obsolete? THANK YOU GOT IT. @MacCubed has it right. Just leave us alone.
     
  25. dermeister thread starter macrumors 6502

    dermeister

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    #25
    Ok, 1.5 GB ram is installed. Got the Sonnet Tempo Serial ATA PCI card, and put it in the A1 position, and plugged it to a 120 GB SSD. I was able to format the SSD, but I can't copy anything to it - the computer immediately hangs once the copy dialogue shows. Anybody know what's going on?
     

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