Powerbook G4 17" HR/DLSD No Charging or Power with Charged Battery

[dbdjre0143]

Hi y'all! I've lurked on this forum for awhile now and have learned a ton from the folks here already, especially drooling over several of your collections of PowerPC Macs.

I use a Late 2005 Powerbook G4 17" (DLSD/HR, Model A1139) as my primary personal laptop. I got this machine in a very lucky eBay auction a few months ago, swapped in a mSATA SSD and have loved it ever since. The only problem it had was a crappy battery (only lasted about 20 minutes). Recently, I started looking to get a replacement battery for it, but found that even OWC can no longer get new ones, so I found an eBay auction for one claiming to be "guaranteed new" but not in original package. To be fair, I did not necessarily believe it would arrive unused, but if I could get over an hour of usage out of it for the price I paid, I would've been happy.

Yesterday, the battery came and I immediately popped out the old one and inserted it. I should note that my Powerbook was turned on at the time (and plugged in of course). As soon as I inserted the new battery my laptop turned off and the light went out on the charger. Uhoh! So, I swapped the old one back in, no light on the charger and no power. I then swapped to a different power supply, same behavior. The laptop will not power on with or without the known working battery, and the charger light will not come on with either battery (or no battery) inserted.

Based on what I've read here and in other forums, I learned that I have been using the wrong power supply with my Powerbook. The one I received with it was a 45W, when this model is supposed to have a 65W. However, I can't imagine that suddenly being a problem now after using it a few months. I have confirmed that both power supplies are still working with my 12" iBook G4. I've also tried resetting the PMU (remove the battery and cord, then hold power button for 5 seconds) with no dice. So, I'm led to believe that either the DC-in board has failed or the PMU on the logic board has passed away.

I was hoping the knowledgeable folks here on the forum could point me in the right direction on whether it would be worthwhile to replace the DC-in board, or if perhaps I have missed something in my analysis of the problem. Even if not, thanks y'all for all I've learned from you already and I hope I can contribute something of value in the future!

 

[eyoungren]

In general the 17" PBs NEED 65W and the HD-DLSD in particular.

Generally, the starving of the computer over time with 20W less than what it needs can damage the charging components slowly with no indication of that damage until ultimately some part fails entirely.

When it comes to switching batteries I generally close the lid and have the Mac sleep before replacing, even when on external power.

Dealing with your problem though…

I would suspect the Mac has become confused and has switched to internal PRAM power. That's a power feature that lets the Mac wake from sleep when the battery drains. You know you are in that state when you plug in a Mac that looks like it's powered off but when you press the button gives you a progress bar on your screen. A PMU reset probably wouldn't affect that.

Replacing the DC In board is easy, but I'd let the Mac sit with the battery out and off power entirely for a day or three.

Then try another PMU reset, plug it all back in and see what happens.

If it comes back then great. Going forward at that point, sleep your Mac first before swapping batteries.

 

[dbdjre0143]

Thanks for the super quick response! Sorry I wasn't clear enough about the way I swapped the battery. I did close the lid (sleeping it) before swapping it, just because of the convenience of not having the screen flopping about...haha. I didn't mention it because I didn't realize it would make a difference. I will chalk that up to a bit of luck.

That's some really interesting info about it possibly switching over to internal PRAM power. I will say I definitely don't have the symptom of getting a progress bar on screen when pressing power. I get no response at all when I press power or plug it in (not even the charger light). In the meantime though, I will go ahead and disconnect the charger and battery, as well as getting a 65W power supply ordered.

 

[eyoungren]

Thanks for the super quick response! Sorry I wasn't clear enough about the way I swapped the battery. I did close the lid (sleeping it) before swapping it, just because of the convenience of not having the screen flopping about...haha. I didn't mention it because I didn't realize it would make a difference. I will chalk that up to a bit of luck.

That's some really interesting info about it possibly switching over to internal PRAM power. I will say I definitely don't have the symptom of getting a progress bar on screen when pressing power. I get no response at all when I press power or plug it in (not even the charger light). In the meantime though, I will go ahead and disconnect the charger and battery, as well as getting a 65W power supply ordered.

Gotcha!

And I was unclear about the PRAM power. This occurs if you've let the Mac sleep for so long it drains the battery, then when you put it on external power and wake the Mac you see the progress bar.

I am speculating that your Mac has done this but is not responding to wake up because it's confused about it's power state. A PMU reset should fix this, but it may not be working in your case.

My suggestion will drain all power forcing the Mac to use external power when you connect it.

As your charger is only 45W there may also be insufficient power to both charge a dead battery (the new battery) and power the system.

I suspect your problem will go away entirely if you get a hold of a 65W charger.

 

[bobesch]

I suspect your problem will go away entirely if you get a hold of a 65W charger.

Aaah, the 15" Powerbooks are very specific about the right 65W charger! Especially, if the battery is completely drained ... That's the first thing to sort out.
[doublepost=1510442007][/doublepost]

In general the 17" PBs NEED 65W and the HD-DLSD in particular.

Generally, the starving of the computer over time with 20W less than what it needs can damage the charging components slowly with no indication of that damage until ultimately some part fails entirely.

Ugh, I often don't care about the charging unit (iBook/PowerBook). Does a 45W charger really ultimately damage a PowerBooks components (or vice versa)? Really won't believe that... (at least: there's a replacement unit ...)

 

[eyoungren]

Ugh, I often don't care about the charging unit (iBook/PowerBook). Does a 45W charger really ultimately damage a PowerBooks components (or vice versa)? Really won't believe that...

Let me ask you a question.

If it didn't matter, why would Apple specify a 65W charger?

I mean if a 45W charger was okay why bother?

It's a loss of 20W over time. For short periods that's okay, but consistent long term use can damage charging system components.

 

[bobesch]

Let me ask you a question.

If it didn't matter, why would Apple specify a 65W charger?

I mean if a 45W charger was okay why bother?

It's a loss of 20W over time. For short periods that's okay, but consistent long term use can damage charging system components.

I'd rather think about the charger being smoked-off, than the underpowered PowerBook-components...
But I'm not sort of electric-engender.

BTW there's a little white no-name brick connected to my 15" early 2008 MBP getting pretty hot doing it's task...

 

[eyoungren]

I'd rather think about the charger being smoked-off, than the underpowered PowerBook-components...
But I'm not sort of electric-engeneer.

Right, I get that.

But having had a HD-DLSD where I ended up using a 45W charger for a little over 6 months before realizing it was 45W and not 65W and then a year or so later having complexing charging problems I can speak to the reality of it.

It won't happen today, tomorrow or possibly even next year but it can ultimately cause some charging component failure. There is stress being placed on the system.

 

[bobesch]

Right, I get that.

But having had a HD-DLSD where I ended up using a 45W charger for a little over 6 months before realizing it was 45W and not 65W and then a year or so later having complexing charging problems I can speak to the reality of it.

It won't happen today, tomorrow or possibly even next year but it can ultimately cause some charging component failure. There is stress being placed on the system.

Anyway ... a 45W charger on a 17" diva isn't any good idea

 

[dbdjre0143]

I just ordered a 65W replacement to arrive Monday. I'll leave all power off of it until then and we'll see what happens. Thanks a bushel!

 

[Dronecatcher]

According to this Apple support page, all power adaptors after the Clamshell were 65W:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201182

I have one white 45W adaptor but cant remember which machine it came with - I'm confused....

 

[weckart]

According to this Apple support page, all power adaptors after the Clamshell were 65W:

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201182

I have one white 45W adaptor but cant remember which machine it came with - I'm confused....

Nah. iBooks came with 45W adapters. So did the TiBooks from what I remember. Pretty sure it was the 15"/17" PBs that heralded in 65W chargers.

Looking at the list in the link, I think there might be an error, there since both sections seem to indicate 65W chargers. I think the top list of iBooks and TiBooks should have 45W chargers, with only the top end TiBook and onwards needing a 65W charger.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I think the top list of iBooks and TiBooks should have 45W chargers, with only the top end TiBook and onwards needing a 65W charger.

Ulp..looks like I've been cooking all my older 'Books on 65W then....

 

[eyoungren]

Ulp..looks like I've been cooking all my older 'Books on 65W then....

No, it steps down. You're fine.

It's just going the other way (over time) you may have problems.

 

[LightBulbFun]

loving the fear mongering going on here LOL

while yes for best results the 15/17 inch PowerBooks need 65W chargers

but you wont damage anything by using a 45W charger, the worst that can happen is A it does not charge the battery or B it throttles the CPU and disables L3 cache if it has L3 (looking at you A1025 *cough* @Gamer9430 *cough*), apple makes this clear in its dev notes for the various machines. (some machines will even just draw power from the battery if the charger cant keep up)

in regards to the OP issues,

since we are running with no battery here, do get a 65W charger, since im not sure if a 17 inch DLSD will power on with a 45W charger (ill have to test that for you)

I imagine even if the battery charging circuitry got blown up due to a bad battery, the DC in board should still work and give you a charging light...

 

[eyoungren]

loving the fear mongering going on here LOL

while yes for best results the 15/17 inch PowerBooks need 65W chargers

but you wont damage anything by using a 45W charger, the worst that can happen is A it does not charge the battery or B it throttles the CPU and disables L3 cache if it has L3 (looking at you A1025 *cough* @Gamer9430 *cough*), apple makes this clear in its dev notes for the various machines. (some machines will even just draw power from the battery if the charger cant keep up)

in regards to the OP issues,

since we are running with no battery here, do get a 65W charger, since im not sure if a 17 inch DLSD will power on with a 45W charger (ill have to test that for you)

I imagine even if the battery charging circuitry got blown up due to a bad battery, the DC in board should still work and give you a charging light...

Respectfully, I have to disagree about damage. It's called undervoltage and given enough time it can damage components even with Apple's dev comments (how do you draw power from a battery that may simply be used to fill the space in many Macs today).

In any case, we probably will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[weckart]

My thinking is the extra 20W headroom is more for all the peripherals that can be powered off the PB. Running the PB full pelt, whilst loaded with external drives etc and trying to charge its battery would tax the 45W unit, in which case it would heat up and eventually switch itself off (I have a HP charger which is too feeble for the laptop it shipped with, which does the same).

I don’t get the undervolting bit - both chargers output the same voltage. Only the Amps differ.

 

[1042686]

Op, This happened to me yesterday morning. After an swap to msata, I reinstalled OSX Friday night. Woke up to a dead 17” 1.67ghz powerbook slsd. What worked for me was powering down the laptop, removing the battery & holding the power button to remove any juice in the capacitors. I went about me day, refilled my coffee cup, came back n put everything back together n voila, Mr. Powerbook McGrumpyPants was happy again. Went on running 10.5.8 & associated updates without issue.

FYI my powerbook came to me with a 45w charger too. There was a noticeable improvement in performance with the 65w charger. One thing I noticed was the outer ring of the (new to me 65w) charger was slightly malformed from shipping preventing charging (ie: no lit ring) , so gently, I reformed it using needle nose pliers & voila once again my grumpy pb was happily humming along. So yeah, if that ring becomes deformed, ovaled etc. charging will not happen & if your battery is empty, yanno insta-dead powerbook. Surprisingly fragile design imo. Anyhoo Good luck!

 

[LightBulbFun]

Respectfully, I have to disagree about damage. It's called undervoltage and given enough time it can damage components even with Apple's dev comments (how do you draw power from a battery that may simply be used to fill the space in many Macs today).

In any case, we probably will have to agree to disagree on this one.

its hard to cause under-voltage, when both 45W and 65W chargers output 24.5 volts the difference is how much current they output.

as i said if the Mac is starved for power (ie wrong charger and cant draw power from the battery) it will just throttle down to draw less power, just like when a Mac thermal throttles. and some macs even with the right charger, if you have a dead/no battery installed they will throttle down regardless, my 2006 BlackBook is an example It just sits at 1Ghz since i dont have a battery for it, even when using an 85W charger LOL

Apple is very good about power management they wont let anything get damaged in the ways you describe.

 

[1042686]

How do you know what the throttle down to speed is? Where do you check? Or is it just a calculation you can do in your head?

 

[LightBulbFun]

How do you know what the throttle down to speed is? Where do you check? Or is it just a calculation you can do in your head?

Page 25 of Apples Developer notes for the 17 inch DLSD

(the dev notes for the Last TiBook actually mention the machine will throttle down to 667Mhz and disable L3 cache if you dont use the right charger/when no battery is installed)

 

[AphoticD]

@LightBulbFun - good confirmation from the source. I just checked and I have 2x 45w and 2x 65w chargers. I never really put much thought into it, but did find that certain chargers refused to charge my PB 17", but didn't think to check the rating, I just plugged in another until it worked.

It looks like the two I've been using most are both 65w, so that clears that up. I've been using them to charge and operate a PB G4 12", 15", 17" and my TiBook interchangeably. Each with healthy, functioning batteries.

 

[dbdjre0143]

So, bad news. My 65W charger came in, and since it has been 2 days, I went ahead and tried another PMU reset, said a prayer, and plugged it in. Still nothing. The computer would not turn on. I also tried inserting my known-working battery and it does not charge. Something has definitely failed about the 'Book. Any ideas on next steps to diagnose what is dead? My original research led me to either the DC-in board or the logic board, and I seriously hope it is not the latter. Thanks everyone for your input!

 

[bobesch]

So, bad news. My 65W charger came in, and since it has been 2 days, I went ahead and tried another PMU reset, said a prayer, and plugged it in. Still nothing. The computer would not turn on. I also tried inserting my known-working battery and it does not charge. Something has definitely failed about the 'Book. Any ideas on next steps to diagnose what is dead? My original research led me to either the DC-in board or the logic board, and I seriously hope it is not the latter. Thanks everyone for your input!

Oh, sorry to hear about that! - Next steps are more challenging.
I'd look inside the PB if any part is smoked off. Last year I've got a 17" PB with non-functional trackpad and some keys. Replaced the top-case, but only the keyboard was ok after that. Then I detected a tiny thingy on the mainboard that did look oddly "burnt" and broke off after a gentle Uspudger's touch. Maybe you'll find something like that either (hopefully) on the DC-in board or the logic-board, before you start to look for a DC-in-board replacement. Cheers

BTW: did you check the charger on another device?

 

[1042686]

So, bad news. My 65W charger came in, and since it has been 2 days, I went ahead and tried another PMU reset, said a prayer, and plugged it in. Still nothing. The computer would not turn on. I also tried inserting my known-working battery and it does not charge. Something has definitely failed about the 'Book. Any ideas on next steps to diagnose what is dead? My original research led me to either the DC-in board or the logic board, and I seriously hope it is not the latter. Thanks everyone for your input!

Do you happen to have another pb to verify the functional state of your 65w charger? If you don’t (I didn’t) a gentle wiggle side by side would produce intermittent connectivity thus lit ring. Anyhow, just trying to ensure it’s not something simple before you start looking at lobos & other internal components. Best of luck.