PowerBook G5... Not Yet...

[wrldwzrd89]

Obviously Apple will put a G5 or better chip in the PowerBook as soon as they can. Does anyone know the status on the 130, 90, 65 nanometer thing and does this effect the size of the chip and how hot it runs. For example would a 130 G5 at 1.6 GHz be hotter, bigger, more energy consuming than a 65 1.6 GHz? Or am I understanding this completely wrong?

That's the way it's supposed to work. The reality is that little mechanical things affect the actual amount of heat generated (most notably leakage current - current that escapes as heat without doing useful work; this increases as the nanometers go down). These facts necessitate the use of technologies like SOI (silicon-on-insulator), strained silicon, and copper interconnects. As the size shrinks, these technologies need to be combined to have any real benefit - this is what IBM is working on now.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

Forget about G5. Where is the 7448 core G4 CPU that is supposely cut down the watt usage by almost half (less than 10W at 1.4GHz) and run at the speed at 1.5GHz or faster? Can't believe Apple are still using 7447A core given such a long time between upgrade.

Currently a 1.5GHz 7447A using energy between 21W to 30W. Before that there were never a Apple G4 book running higher than 22W. That's really unacceptable.

Freescale hasn't delivered 7448-based chips in anywhere near the quantities needed for manufacturing (read: sampling prototypes only). This is why Apple is stuck with the 7447A - the 970 isn't ready, and neither are the next best alternatives - the 7447B and the 7448.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

what if you took off the metal stand thingy from the back of the imac and hooked it up to a car battery...and voila! powerbook g5....i don't really care that much about the powerbook g5...but i am curious why they say it's so hard to cool yet they were so proud of squeezing it into the 2" thin imac

<snip>

If you knew, like I do, that cooling requirements increase exponentially (i.e. VERY quickly) as the ratio of enclosure volume to heat generated decreases (i.e. smaller enclosures and more heat), it would be immediately obvious why making the iMac G5 wasn't all that easy and why a PowerBook G5 is at least 10 times more difficult.

Think of it this way:
If cooling a cube 3 inches all around requires a relative effort of 1, then cooling a cube 1 inch all around (a 27x decrease) would require a relative effort of 243.

Disclaimer: These figures are entirely fictional - they're there purely to make a point.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

If you spend any time with Java then surely you've noticed that the JVM on the mac SUCKS ASS. My friend made a simple "defender" game in Java that sucks about 20% of his CPU on a pentium 3 and runs smooth as heck, but eats 100% of the cpu on my 1.5 ghz powerbook and is jerky. The JVM needs a lot of work.

Steven

Just a word of advice...

Don't go making statements like these without backing them up.

For example, such a statement cannot be verified or discounted without knowing what version of the JVM was used on the Mac and on the PC.

 

[maya]

Ok, so I keep reading all these posts about people whining about a lack of G5 PowerBook. Can someone honestly tell me WHY they think they *need* one? I mean, really, people. Are you rendering raytraced scenes for an upcoming Pixar film on your PowerBook and really need the extra speed? What would a G5 chip *really* give you over the current 1.67GhZ G4?

For people who do not know or need the benefits of the G5 in a mobile solution please do not vent here. If all you are concerned is having the latest technology then shoot of you mouth else where.

For those who do understand there is hugh concern here with the lack of a G5 mobile solution and I do not need to point it out as I am one of them who need a G5 mobile solution for what I do.

Yes, Apple is going to loose a lot of sales from not releasing a PMG5 and by the time it does make an appearance they will have to either drop prices or release more options as standards.

For those who need a clue as to why a G5 mobile is required:

3D modeling/animation/rendering.

Video including Apples own Motion application that really wants a G5 instead of a G4 ( you are dead to speed if you use Motion on a G4).

Audio.

If I am not mistaken Apple doest cater to the "Creative Field" so this is a hugh draw back. And not want to carry a PMG5 with an ACD on the road with me, get a clue.
🙄

 

[Pringolian]

I love it when the Apple fans make excuses for Apple's broken promises and failure to deliver performance that can arguably hold its own in the computing world. The Dothans are kicking ass over the Powerbooks, especially in tasks that involve a lot of memory. Those tasks include multimedia, video, and audio stuff, which the Macs are supposed to excel at. I guess not.

Steven

The problem is SOFTWARE, Mac OS X, Final Cut Pro HD, Shake 3.5, Logic Pro, Motion and DVD studio Pro. It's a complete suite of amazing tools. Adobe Premiere is the PC editor that most use within the same price range and it's CRAP, Windows XP dreadful (give me 2000 anyday), the list goes on... Avid Xpress and After Effects are pretty good but they work just as fast on a PowerBook.

Give it up with the PC vs MAC hardware debate, we all know it's the software that really ties the performance together.

 

[Cougarcat]

I could care less about the extra processing power provided by the G5. The real reason I want to see the G5 PowerBook is because it means a total overhaul of the Powerbook line. I'm way more excited about a possible new form factor, new features, new innovations than GarageBand opening 5 seconds quicker.

Exactly. I couldn't care less if the next Powerbook update wasn't G5. All I want is a higher res. screen, a better system bus speed, and (especially) an upgradable graphics card. Since GPUs seem to get out of date way before the processor, an upgradable one would greatly increase the lifespan of the powerbook.

 

[matticus008]

Exactly. I couldn't care less if the next Powerbook update wasn't G5. All I want is a higher res. screen, a better system bus speed, and (especially) an upgradable graphics card. Since GPUs seem to get out of date way before the processor, an upgradable one would greatly increase the lifespan of the powerbook.

That's my issue too. What if the PowerBook gets even sexier next time around? It looks great now, but we could be surprised with next time. I absolutely do need a better bus speed and overall throughput (for reasons in line with maya above), but if that's a G4 with an on-die memory controller and not a G5, okay. I don't need 64-bit for anything right now, and I've already got a 64-bit desktop system if it becomes necessary before the next round of upgrades. I do, however, need a fast system that can handle large amounts of data without choking. Something a little more cutting-edge than the 9700 would be nice, too, though if it became upgradeable, I'd be happy with the 9700 installed stock because I could always make it better later.

While I'd like to see a new LCD panel in use, I wouldn't count on a higher resolution. Apple's own web site clearly states that their engineers favor 100dpi solutions. I can't find the link right now, but I will if someone challenges this. 100dpi ensures continuity across Apple displays, for people who work in graphics. What that means is that we are not likely to see higher-res screens because that would require scaling text and graphics, degrading quality of graphics (but arguably improving text). Another point I'd like to bring up is that on those awesome high-res PC screens, DVDs often look pretty horrible. That's because the DVD image has to be scaled much larger than its 720-pixel width (I forget the height, but I think it's 400-something). On my widescreen flat panel now, I see that scaling as well, and as a result have to force myself not to assess DVD image quality TOO closely, or risk frustration. It has to be scaled on the PowerBooks, as well, but to a much lesser extent. Improved brightness, response time, and pixel pitch are improvements I hope to see in the upcoming PB models.

 

[cemil]

Exactly. I couldn't care less if the next Powerbook update wasn't G5. All I want is a higher res. screen, a better system bus speed, and (especially) an upgradable graphics card. Since GPUs seem to get out of date way before the processor, an upgradable one would greatly increase the lifespan of the powerbook.

Amen brotha. Here's what I'd like to see out of the next pbook update:

1) A faster hard drive - be it 7200 RPM or just loading it up with 8M of cache, it makes a big difference

2) A faster FSB. This, in my mind is THE main advantage of the G5 over the G4. I couldn't care less about 64 bit processing, since you're not likely to stick more than 4 GB of RAM in a pbook anyways. The G4 right now is running at ridiculous multiples of the FSB - meaning the processor is data-starved most of the time.

3) More on-chip cache. More L2 to make up for the shocking FSB speeds

4) Higher-res screen. Perhaps true HD?

5) Keys that don't wear off

6) Dual layer (obv coming)

7) Substantially longer battery life. Lets face it, the powerbook, even with the current crappy FSB & CPU gets beaten on battery life by the new x86 lappies. I have a centrino-based lappie here as well, and trust me, it gets SUBSTANTIALLY longer battery life. I can make it through 2 full length-dvds on it, unlike the pbook.

Any other ideas?

 

[geoffism]

Amen brotha. Here's what I'd like to see out of the next pbook update:

1) A faster hard drive - be it 7200 RPM or just loading it up with 8M of cache, it makes a big difference

2) A faster FSB. This, in my mind is THE main advantage of the G5 over the G4. I couldn't care less about 64 bit processing, since you're not likely to stick more than 4 GB of RAM in a pbook anyways. The G4 right now is running at ridiculous multiples of the FSB - meaning the processor is data-starved most of the time.

3) More on-chip cache. More L2 to make up for the shocking FSB speeds

4) Higher-res screen. Perhaps true HD?

5) Keys that don't wear off

6) Dual layer (obv coming)

7) Substantially longer battery life. Lets face it, the powerbook, even with the current crappy FSB & CPU gets beaten on battery life by the new x86 lappies. I have a centrino-based lappie here as well, and trust me, it gets SUBSTANTIALLY longer battery life. I can make it through 2 full length-dvds on it, unlike the pbook.

Any other ideas?

You guys are so demanding! 😉

I hear ya. I definitely have my wishlist. For now, (and since I am not fitting the bill) this will rev will do the trick.

 

[wrldwzrd89]

Amen brotha. Here's what I'd like to see out of the next pbook update:

1) A faster hard drive - be it 7200 RPM or just loading it up with 8M of cache, it makes a big difference

2) A faster FSB. This, in my mind is THE main advantage of the G5 over the G4. I couldn't care less about 64 bit processing, since you're not likely to stick more than 4 GB of RAM in a pbook anyways. The G4 right now is running at ridiculous multiples of the FSB - meaning the processor is data-starved most of the time.

3) More on-chip cache. More L2 to make up for the shocking FSB speeds

4) Higher-res screen. Perhaps true HD?

5) Keys that don't wear off

6) Dual layer (obv coming)

7) Substantially longer battery life. Lets face it, the powerbook, even with the current crappy FSB & CPU gets beaten on battery life by the new x86 lappies. I have a centrino-based lappie here as well, and trust me, it gets SUBSTANTIALLY longer battery life. I can make it through 2 full length-dvds on it, unlike the pbook.

Any other ideas?

#4 won't happen anytime soon due to Apple's insistence on screens with 100 ppi (pixels per inch) resolutions because that is best for graphics work. The others, though, are feasible.

 

[cemil]

#4 won't happen anytime soon due to Apple's insistence on screens with 100 ppi (pixels per inch) resolutions because that is best for graphics work. The others, though, are feasible.

See the trouble with 100 ppi screens is that the font anti-aliasing apple uses looks like crap on them. I actually have it turned off system wide because I get such headaches from font smoothing. Examples: look at the menu bar, at the word finder. look closely at the e. see how the crossbar becomes a blur? look closely at the word Edit. See how the downward stroke is blurry and the i has no definition? If apple fixed the anti-aliasing or allowed it to be turned off properly (without resorting to a hack like editing the .plist file) then it'd be ok. The trouble is, with the font smoothing off, fonts display like crap due to spacing issues. Clearly apple engineers weren't expecting font smoothing to be turned off, and didn't anticipate the spacing issues that would result.

My single biggest gripe with OS X/screens.

 

[ASP272]

I'm glad they're waiting to get it right, but hurry up man! 😀

 

[Surreal]

i am pretty sure 1.67 is plenty fast mor me... but i have doubts about the FSB.

I run Propellerhead's Reason and Apple Logic Express (going pro when i get the funds 🙂) and i need to update from my Power Mac G4 450. I am going to buy the HD 896 after the powerbook to record. I don't necesaril think the G5 is required to get 192khz tracks in but i think the FSB will choke on 8 tracks. given..i won't record 8 192Khz tracks often when recording others as that clarity isnt demanded much but to buy the interface knowing i can't use it to it's fullest would be a little sad.

this post is supposed to be a question.."will the top of the line (15 or 17) pb choke on audio?"

formerly current models - 1.5 - are what i want to judge by. i actually am fine with the updates and think them great except for the lack of change in the graphics card..which i dont REALLY care about and the FSB being unchanged. if the 1.5 models work well with firewire audio and wont be REALLY hurt, then i will plan on buying one. if not i may just buy a mac mini with a gig of ram and sit pretty.

 

[jasylonian]

people keep talking about dual processor powerbooks. is there really enough room for two?

 

[wrldwzrd89]

See the trouble with 100 ppi screens is that the font anti-aliasing apple uses looks like crap on them. I actually have it turned off system wide because I get such headaches from font smoothing. Examples: look at the menu bar, at the word finder. look closely at the e. see how the crossbar becomes a blur? look closely at the word Edit. See how the downward stroke is blurry and the i has no definition? If apple fixed the anti-aliasing or allowed it to be turned off properly (without resorting to a hack like editing the .plist file) then it'd be ok. The trouble is, with the font smoothing off, fonts display like crap due to spacing issues. Clearly apple engineers weren't expecting font smoothing to be turned off, and didn't anticipate the spacing issues that would result.

My single biggest gripe with OS X/screens.

I'm not at my Mac right now, but...isn't font smoothing supposed to blur the boundaries between the letters and the background to make them look more natural? If I assume that what I just mentioned is true, then I'd expect the things you mentioned to be intentional. I've never seen the spacing issue you mentioned myself, but it sounds pretty strange to me.

 

[digitalbiker]

What is so magical about 100 ppi

While I'd like to see a new LCD panel in use, I wouldn't count on a higher resolution. Apple's own web site clearly states that their engineers favor 100dpi solutions.

What is so magical about 100 ppi? DVD is 480p, HD is 720p or 1080i. Printers output at 300, 600, 1200, & 2400 dpi. Most pro graphics programs allow the designer to set the ppi up front. Greater resolution displays allow fonts to be scaled to any size with less aliasing.

Compare a PB to sony's new Xbrite display. Apple looks dull, washed out, less color, less visible from the side, and pixelated compared to the sony.

 

[oskar]

See the trouble with 100 ppi screens is that the font anti-aliasing apple uses looks like crap on them. I actually have it turned off system wide because I get such headaches from font smoothing. Examples: look at the menu bar, at the word finder. look closely at the e. see how the crossbar becomes a blur? look closely at the word Edit. See how the downward stroke is blurry and the i has no definition? If apple fixed the anti-aliasing or allowed it to be turned off properly (without resorting to a hack like editing the .plist file) then it'd be ok. The trouble is, with the font smoothing off, fonts display like crap due to spacing issues. Clearly apple engineers weren't expecting font smoothing to be turned off, and didn't anticipate the spacing issues that would result.

My single biggest gripe with OS X/screens.

What screen or you trying this on? Fonts withoutsmoothing look the same as they always did before OS 9. Fonts with smoothing look OK no matter how hard I try to find what you mean... I've looked on a PowerBook G3, a G4 and an iBook G4, no problems...
Have you done that on at least two similar screens?

By the way, the 12" screens aren't 100 ppi are they? They have the same resolution as the 14" screens.

 

[oskar]

Just two days ago they announced updated PowerBooks. Seems the only thing can cool down all the G5 enthusiasts is the G5 itself.
While some wait, others will be actually using their "speedier" G4 PowerBooks...

 

[wrldwzrd89]

What screen or you trying this on? Fonts withoutsmoothing look the same as they always did before OS 9. Fonts with smoothing look OK no matter how hard I try to find what you mean... I've looked on a PowerBook G3, a G4 and an iBook G4, no problems...
Have you done that on at least two similar screens?

By the way, the 12" screens aren't 100 ppi are they? They have the same resolution as the 14" screens.

Neither the 12" screen nor the 14" screen is exactly 100 ppi, but the 14" screen is further from the ideal than the 12" according to my calculations.

 

[BeEnO]

Powerbook G5 .... not to far away... we hope

The step from getting the G5 processor from the powermac into the imac, was something that probably wasnt "expected" but apple killed that. Looking at the internals of the imac g5 it may not be to far from the powerbook. Me and the othher apple technician at my store would hoping it was going to happen, but also did realistically think it would.

But if the imac is any indication i dont think it is to far...

FINGERS CROSSED

 

[StarbucksSam]

Ok, so I keep reading all these posts about people whining about a lack of G5 PowerBook. Can someone honestly tell me WHY they think they *need* one? I mean, really, people. Are you rendering raytraced scenes for an upcoming Pixar film on your PowerBook and really need the extra speed? What would a G5 chip *really* give you over the current 1.67GhZ G4?

I'm serious, I really want to know. I'm planning on getting a G4 PowerBook soon, and I'm curious as to why people seem to think they need the G5. If you're doing serious crunching of numbers and heavy utilization of the processor, perhaps a laptop is not what you need.

Is it me? Am I missing something here? I'm being honest, here. I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything; I'm seriously curious. Thanks in advance for honest replies!

Thank GOD someone FINALLY said it. THANK YOU. Amen.

 

[digitalbiker]

Yeah and he has been given many replys to his inquiry!

Thank GOD someone FINALLY said it. THANK YOU. Amen.

Yeah, he said it and at least 10 others gave him significant reasons why you may need and/or want a new generation PowerBook.

I guess you just ignored those posts! 😉

 

[zimtheinvader]

...yet AGAIN there ARE mobile A/V professionals that Apple is neglecting!!

The G4 PBs are terrible DAW, they are fine to just run sequences that you've already optimized in 'the studio', and control something like a nord3 or whatever, but they can hardly run the demanding plugins and software combinations that most contemporary engineers/artists use. On the other hand, the P4 I auditioned at a friend's house (2.53, 533fsb) could run almost 25 instances of the Minimoog vsti within a sequencer host. My G4 with Logic6 can run 1-2max, and even then it often stutters or crashes. That's pathetic for a product marketed to the professional audio/video user. So, yes, there are a lot of professionals and even students out there waiting for a mobile power solution for Osx, -the way the G5 is clearly from the ground up optimized for one thing: running the most demanding Osx applications of now and the future. This simply hasn't happend yet on a mobile platform, the G4 was a nice step up back in Os9, (alti-vec optimized, Premiere!) but its not enough to be a mobile alternative to the PMG5, which the G4PB clearly was. Remember the old ads "A realtime mobile FCP workstation." You don't see those anymore for the PBs... More, its "look how sexy this is for buisness people/english majors!" but I digress, I merely meant to point out that this exact wierd ignorance of the very real professional mac user seems endemic of this whole category of thread. There ARE users that NEED a G5 or a power-equivalent similar solution, and they don't have a capable notebook just now.

Plus, of course, the gamers. I'm a tad sick of re-playing the old Quakes...and Doom3 seems indicative of the future of gaming on PCs, certainly on the relatively port-starved Osx. Meanwhile XPnotebooks are getting sata, pci-e, giga-e standard, 6-8hr batteries, ect. yet Apple is still hung-up on the processor alone, with an geforcefx as the 'low' end vs a R9700 as the low end pcnotebook gpu... my hope is that they will update a lot more than just that in whatever follows the pbg4...and not just what really are more "niche" things like BT and dvdrw (I've never really seen a mobile user burn a dvd) and drop protection. (I mean, seriously, like I would not demand that my notebook survive a fall of that magnitude that it would wreck the disk...)

So, yeah, I was waiting and now I think I'll concede my mobile plans and go PMG5 rather than wait any more, maybe I'll pick up one o' them 'newtons'...

 

[blackpeter]

Ok, so I keep reading all these posts about people whining about a lack of G5 PowerBook. Can someone honestly tell me WHY they think they *need* one? I mean, really, people. Are you rendering raytraced scenes for an upcoming Pixar film on your PowerBook and really need the extra speed? What would a G5 chip *really* give you over the current 1.67GhZ G4?

I'm serious, I really want to know. I'm planning on getting a G4 PowerBook soon, and I'm curious as to why people seem to think they need the G5. If you're doing serious crunching of numbers and heavy utilization of the processor, perhaps a laptop is not what you need.

Is it me? Am I missing something here? I'm being honest, here. I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything; I'm seriously curious. Thanks in advance for honest replies!

There are people who need a G5 PowerBook, but those people are too busy WORKING to bitch and moan on a friggin' rumor site.

I, for one, will be psyched when my 1.67GHz G4 15" arrives next week. Expecially anxious to try out Bluetooth 2.0 and that nifty scrolling trackpad.