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PowerBook Rumors (17 and 15inch)
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Re: you guys are crazy!!
I still assert that, whenever the 970 is release (whether later or - please, please, please - sooner) Apple will release it in both the PowerMacs and the PowerBooks at about the same time. (The actual release - as in shipping date - might not coinside, but the announcement more than likely will.) So, dreaming about a killer laptop before the new desktops have been released is not so strange to do...
Hahahahaha! YES!
Just as a note on the technical side, I believe that the 970 isn't being made on a .18-process. They're starting on a .13-process. Also, the power dissipation number that I've heard quoted again and again is 19W, not 11W. (vs. 29W for a 1GHz G4.)
I still assert that, whenever the 970 is release (whether later or - please, please, please - sooner) Apple will release it in both the PowerMacs and the PowerBooks at about the same time. (The actual release - as in shipping date - might not coinside, but the announcement more than likely will.) So, dreaming about a killer laptop before the new desktops have been released is not so strange to do...
Hahahahaha! YES!
Just as a note on the technical side, I believe that the 970 isn't being made on a .18-process. They're starting on a .13-process. Also, the power dissipation number that I've heard quoted again and again is 19W, not 11W. (vs. 29W for a 1GHz G4.)
Re: you guys are crazy!!
Whoa nelly, "ever" that's a huge assumption. Who really knows what the future holds 100 years or even 10 years from now. We could be all toting around a terabyte (or more) of storage in our decoder rings!
Agreed (today) but historically (with computers) talk of more power (and really in this case more memory than 2gb's) has always been viewed by most as "too soon" but it seems to me that off the shelf pc's running Linux are making movies like Shrek whereas a few years before only a high end SGI or SUN configuration would be applied to such a task. I believe the apps will come and the usefulness will be apparent as they roll out. Currently there is not much that most of us do that we feel a 64bit CPU/Architecture would offer in terms of performance however a few years ago I would not have dreamed about using a laptop to do mobile digital recording in the field. I don't feel that current apps should be brought up to speed with current hardware (dual cpu support, etc) in lieu of newer technology. If they can roll out something better and more promising, even if we can't take full advantage right away, then they should. Just my opinion.
Whoa nelly, "ever" that's a huge assumption. Who really knows what the future holds 100 years or even 10 years from now. We could be all toting around a terabyte (or more) of storage in our decoder rings!
Agreed (today) but historically (with computers) talk of more power (and really in this case more memory than 2gb's) has always been viewed by most as "too soon" but it seems to me that off the shelf pc's running Linux are making movies like Shrek whereas a few years before only a high end SGI or SUN configuration would be applied to such a task. I believe the apps will come and the usefulness will be apparent as they roll out. Currently there is not much that most of us do that we feel a 64bit CPU/Architecture would offer in terms of performance however a few years ago I would not have dreamed about using a laptop to do mobile digital recording in the field. I don't feel that current apps should be brought up to speed with current hardware (dual cpu support, etc) in lieu of newer technology. If they can roll out something better and more promising, even if we can't take full advantage right away, then they should. Just my opinion.
Re: Re: you guys are crazy!!
On this same note, when has a developer ever created software that required hardware that didn't exist yet? Of course there aren't many applications that require 64 bit computing right now. Does that mean that developers won't create such applications when 64 bit computers are more common? I really doubt it.
I believe that someone who is really big in the computer industry once said that he couldn't imagine anyone ever needing more than 128kB of RAM...
On this same note, when has a developer ever created software that required hardware that didn't exist yet? Of course there aren't many applications that require 64 bit computing right now. Does that mean that developers won't create such applications when 64 bit computers are more common? I really doubt it.
I believe that someone who is really big in the computer industry once said that he couldn't imagine anyone ever needing more than 128kB of RAM...
I cannot imagine dual cpu laptops ever happening. If anything, I would expect a dual cpu iMac to come before. Why?
Heat.
Go ahead, write it off as being a hurdle Apple will get over. Apple is an innovative company, that's for sure, but they cannot defy physics. This one is so easy to debunk with simple math.
A dual processor laptop will output twice the wattage.
A dual processor will require twice as much current.
A dual processor laptop will not eliminate laptop's worse bottleneck, the hard drive.
A dual processor laptop will not go twice as fast.
And finally:
Two processors cost twice as much as one processor.
People complain about how "warm" their G4's get right now. Go ahead, stick a second processor in there- see how warm it gets them. People also complain about the fans in their laptops- just wait until you have twice as many.
Of course, this also excludes other side effects, such as the system controller getting warmer due to increased work, etc. It's a nice thought, but a dual processor laptop isn't really possible without it becoming less of a laptop and more of a portable desktop. Even then, the cooling system will make it much less of a reality.
Heat.
Go ahead, write it off as being a hurdle Apple will get over. Apple is an innovative company, that's for sure, but they cannot defy physics. This one is so easy to debunk with simple math.
A dual processor laptop will output twice the wattage.
A dual processor will require twice as much current.
A dual processor laptop will not eliminate laptop's worse bottleneck, the hard drive.
A dual processor laptop will not go twice as fast.
And finally:
Two processors cost twice as much as one processor.
People complain about how "warm" their G4's get right now. Go ahead, stick a second processor in there- see how warm it gets them. People also complain about the fans in their laptops- just wait until you have twice as many.
Of course, this also excludes other side effects, such as the system controller getting warmer due to increased work, etc. It's a nice thought, but a dual processor laptop isn't really possible without it becoming less of a laptop and more of a portable desktop. Even then, the cooling system will make it much less of a reality.
Sorry...I made the relevant prediction last year, although I will admit that it was 12/31, a mere 8 days before you started the specific DP 17" PB thread
Nevertheless, it does make for a good strategy: Steve's annoucment of "Year of the Laptop" has the potential to be pretty bold - - not only does Apple catch up to Windows on performance, but it looks like they'll have it in a laptop. Talk about trashing paradigms!
-hh
What about a Dual 970 with variable bus timing, display-mounted audio output (freeing a little more space in the enclosure), and NO Hard Drive.
What could be the possibilities of ramdrives coming up for the 970?
Way too expensive?
Maybe not soon...
What could be the possibilities of ramdrives coming up for the 970?
Way too expensive?
Maybe not soon...
Re: Re: you guys are crazy!!
Doh! Just looked it up, and you are absolutely right!
Good thing someone here remembers such things better than I!
A .13 micron-process 1.2GHz PPC 970 will dissipate 19W. Two will then (excluding any extra dissipation in the SC) dissipate 38W, which is more than the 29W for the G4, although the physical separation of the two chips should still keep your lap relatively cooler.
Doh! Just looked it up, and you are absolutely right!
Good thing someone here remembers such things better than I!
A .13 micron-process 1.2GHz PPC 970 will dissipate 19W. Two will then (excluding any extra dissipation in the SC) dissipate 38W, which is more than the 29W for the G4, although the physical separation of the two chips should still keep your lap relatively cooler.
Originally posted by daedelgt
I remember when 16 megs of ram cost 500 dollars
A thousand years ago when I sold pc hardware I remember custom bulding a "high-end" CAD system for a customer using a Harris 286 - 12mHz machine that cost around $4000.00 at the time. Change is inevitable.
Remember the big hoo-ha when the 32bit cpu's first came out? The same arguments were heard back then. "None of my 16bit apps will benefit from a 32bit processor" and they were right. How many of those 16bit apps are in mainstream use today?
On this same note what presedence did Microsoft set by pre-coding for hyperthreading? It's like a bizzare sadistic time implosion! First came the software (XP) then the chip? Obvoiusly Microsoft was in bed with Intel. Could Apple be up to the same trick with IBM? Could OS X be "pre-coded" or at the very least partialy prepared for the 970? It is possible that the advantage of the 970 may be greater then we all speculate. Let us hope Apple was taking notes from Microsoft (a bizzare statement in it's self!) It's always been the other way around so the way I see it M$ owes us at least one!
>100,000,000 fans rise to thier feet cheering while throwing apples at Bill Gates!<
Can a brother get an A-Men!
A dual processor will require twice as much current.
A dual processor laptop will not eliminate laptop's worse bottleneck, the hard drive.
A dual processor laptop will not go twice as fast.
And finally:
Two processors cost twice as much as one processor.
*********************************************************
True, but I think some people will buy it.
I too would love to see some sort of HD alternative. It might be a real long wait.
It is nice to see that note-books could rival some desktops/towers as they have been/and still are the weak sister.
As far as apps........build it and they will come.
A dual processor laptop will not eliminate laptop's worse bottleneck, the hard drive.
A dual processor laptop will not go twice as fast.
And finally:
Two processors cost twice as much as one processor.
*********************************************************
True, but I think some people will buy it.
I too would love to see some sort of HD alternative. It might be a real long wait.
It is nice to see that note-books could rival some desktops/towers as they have been/and still are the weak sister.
As far as apps........build it and they will come.
An acoustically transparent LCD with some sort of hybrid, low power, electrostat speaker(s) behind it would be way cool. Just the sort of innovative thing Apple should do!
Hard drives suck. I am amazed that with all the innovations and leaps in technology that a better, faster storage device has not been created. I mean give me a break. We can put a man on the moon 30 years ago but a 200GB hard drive is not much (physically) smaller than a 10mb dinosaur. Moving parts break too easily too. Come on all you science engineering geeks, sharpen those pencils! I want my multi terabyte decoder ring by Christmas!!!
hey do you remember when i said that there would be dual G4 powerbooks.
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21675
i guess we shall see
Tyler
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21675
i guess we shall see
Tyler
I made a joke in one of my posts on April Fools day about "Molecular Polymer Storage" but it was based on an article I had read a few years ago doing that very thing. They had a sugar cube size piece of plastic (made up of a special molecules that could have an electron shifted in one direction or another, basically a "bit") that used lasers to toggle the molecules to a true or false state effectively creating RAM. This little cube was able to hold vast amounts of data (I can't remember the actual capacity but it was huge) and even more importantly, because it was in three dimensions, the access time was very very fast. This prototype had a room full of equipment to run it so I see the problem there. I do appologize for not being able to quote the article or source as well as not being that versed in physics. I may be entirely using the wrong terminology to describe what I read aboiut. I was very excited at the time (seems to me the *big* hard drive of those days was a 200 megabyte [NOT gigabyte] Western Digital P.O.S.) I hope we something soon. Modern computing is almost like owning a Formula one race care with clay tires. (read slow hard drives)
<edit>
Just found this link if anyone is interested in this technology, it's old but touches on what I am talking about:
http://www.rl.af.mil/div/IFB/techtrans/datasheets/3DOptMem.html
</edit>
While I do know a little bit about 3D optical storage, and it certainly is on the horizon, I'm afraid that the article that you referenced has some, uh, flaws in it. First, did you notice that according to the article we should have rewritable memory of this kind this year. And we should have had write-once memory of this kind since 2001. And I've been using CDs. Doh! Oh, and 1 terabit of information is not equivalent to 300,000 floppies, but more like 90,000 floppies. (Floppy? What's a floppy?
) And who needs comments about accessing data at the speed of light? Whether your accessing data through a laser or through a magnetic read head, both are using fields that travel at the speed of light. That's not where the slow down is...But, seriously, from what I understand this is very exciting technology, and may be here within the next five to ten years. It will likely revolutionize the way that we store all kinds of data, as it will allow us to use an optical medium (like CDs and DVDs) that is faster but not as fragile as current optical media.
About seven years ago there was a product introduced that was called a magneto-optical drive. It was supposed to have the durability of a CD, but the usability of a hard-drive. Unfortunately, the technology was a little lack-luster, and I haven't heard of them in some time.
In any event, I really wouldn't expect to see a 'sugar-cube optical hard-drive' in a Mac anytime soon. But I will look forward to it when it comes.
(How about an iPod based on one of these? 200,000 songs on your wrist!!
)Well, I don't know if you would call it the Physics Department, but IBM is definitely working on it. There is a reason they suddenly sold off their profitable hard drive business a year or so back. Check out Millipede if you haven't already: http://www.research.ibm.com/resources/news/20020611_millipede.shtml
It is essentially the old punch card idea updated with modern MEMS technology, so the holes are a tad bit smaller (oh, and it can un-punch the holes too). There's a lot of development left to do, but it works. There are still moving parts, if you consider a silicon cantilever flexing over a micron or two to be motion, but it sure beats spinning platters and read heads.
To all those who claim that Apple would never put the dualies in the 15" before the 17" (because the 17" is the flagship)...think twice.
While because of engineering I believe the dualies would go in the 17" first (space/heat issues), I believe most people buying the 17" aren't buying it just because it's the flagship: but because it's go that 17" screen.
When the 15" PowerBook gets its innards to match those of the 17" (bluetooth, backlit keyboard, etc.), then my case will make more sense. It's the screen size that you're paying for, that's about it.
So it really doesn't matter, from a marketing standpoint, which model has the dualies initially. In fact, I bet that if the specs on the 17" were brought to an updated 15", (more to the point: WHEN this happens), you'll see sales of the 17" begin to drop until the price of that model drops.
I still would like to see the 15-17" PowerBook range stick in the $2299-$2999 range. Anything above that is simply too hard to justify for a notebook.
While because of engineering I believe the dualies would go in the 17" first (space/heat issues), I believe most people buying the 17" aren't buying it just because it's the flagship: but because it's go that 17" screen.
When the 15" PowerBook gets its innards to match those of the 17" (bluetooth, backlit keyboard, etc.), then my case will make more sense. It's the screen size that you're paying for, that's about it.
So it really doesn't matter, from a marketing standpoint, which model has the dualies initially. In fact, I bet that if the specs on the 17" were brought to an updated 15", (more to the point: WHEN this happens), you'll see sales of the 17" begin to drop until the price of that model drops.
I still would like to see the 15-17" PowerBook range stick in the $2299-$2999 range. Anything above that is simply too hard to justify for a notebook.
640 K = $300 upgrade
And I remember it costing my parents $300 to upgrade the old Tandy 1000 HX from 256 Kb of RAM to 640 KB of RAM. I could see quite a bit of improvement in some games because extra color and sounds were added to some games I had, like 1-on-1: Jordan vs. Bird.
I paid about $44 for my last 512 MB memory module...wow. I love cheap RAM. That same amount in late 80's prices would have cost $245,760...wow, nearly a quarter million dollars. However, I doubt any consumer computers back then could have even made use of 512 MB of RAM, anyway.
Originally posted by daedelgt
I remember when 16 megs of ram cost 500 dollars
And I remember it costing my parents $300 to upgrade the old Tandy 1000 HX from 256 Kb of RAM to 640 KB of RAM. I could see quite a bit of improvement in some games because extra color and sounds were added to some games I had, like 1-on-1: Jordan vs. Bird.
I paid about $44 for my last 512 MB memory module...wow. I love cheap RAM. That same amount in late 80's prices would have cost $245,760...wow, nearly a quarter million dollars. However, I doubt any consumer computers back then could have even made use of 512 MB of RAM, anyway.
Pi-Rho books
I think Apple should ditch the chemical symbol names (Ti, Al) and start using Greek symbols instead. The suggested title for a 17" dual processor Powerbook could be the Pi-Rho book (this board strips away Greek characters).
Think of the benefits! Say you are camping and you need to start a fire. You can do one of various things:
1) Rub two sticks together.
2) Use a match.
3) Set the Pi-Rho Book on top of some tinder and start playing a few rounds of Quake or do some heavy Photoshop work.
However it might be suggested to wear some fire-retardant clothing just in case the Book does catch on fire.
Sorry for the bad pun, but it just worked too well.
I think Apple should ditch the chemical symbol names (Ti, Al) and start using Greek symbols instead. The suggested title for a 17" dual processor Powerbook could be the Pi-Rho book (this board strips away Greek characters).
Think of the benefits! Say you are camping and you need to start a fire. You can do one of various things:
1) Rub two sticks together.
2) Use a match.
3) Set the Pi-Rho Book on top of some tinder and start playing a few rounds of Quake or do some heavy Photoshop work.
However it might be suggested to wear some fire-retardant clothing just in case the Book does catch on fire.
Sorry for the bad pun, but it just worked too well.