PowerBook To Get Dual-Core G4?

[VicMacs]

Here's the only Powerbook G5 you are going to find for awhile. 😉

I'd rather buy a G3 iBook off of eBay. 😛

here here!! I'll drink to that!

 

[manu chao]

True, and I've learned from my mistake. Don't buy a processor that is on its last leg. Yes, I was able to make it last, though it hasn't been easy. However, you cannot compare 1999 with 2005. The G4 had altivec, was superior to the G3, but it wasn't revolutionarily different. There IS a major difference between the G4 and G5 which is far greater than the difference between the G3 and G4 five years ago. If Apple had announced in 1999 that the G4 was 64-bit and that was the direction they were heading, there would be no way my G3 machine would have lasted 5 years.

I think my logic is pretty sound, at least for my budget and future needs. Like I said though, its up to the individual. If you want a G4 PB, go for it. Its fine for now, but I don't see it being fine in 1 year. I'm just saying that I personally don't plan to get one until Apple proves it has a future. Each individual can decide for themselves though based on their needs.

I think we all agree that the biggest differences between the G4 and the G5 are the 64 bit-ness and the faster FSB (plus clocking higher, but wether a G5 laptop clocks much higher than a G4 laptop could clock at the time of the announcement of the G5 laptop remains to be seen). The main difference between the G3 and the G4 is Altivec.

I believe it also a common understanding that the 64 bit do not speed up things in general (or only very little or only in specific kind of apps). The faster FSB certainly does increase speed, for some task very little for some a lot. Something similar can be said about Altivec, it speeds up things little to nothing in some apps and quite a lot in others. Interestingly, the kind of apps which are likely to profit from going 64 bit also gain from using Altivec.

I agree, in principle going from 32 to 64 bit is revolutionary, in practice however it is not.

Maybe the pace is accellerating, but I would guess that as much (or as little) as you suffer right now with your 400 Mhz G3 under Panther you will suffer in five years with a 1.5Ghz G4 under the then current OS and apps.
And as much as you would suffer with a 500 Mhz G4 laptop right now, you will suffer with a 1.8Ghz G5 laptop three and half years after it was released.

P.S.: I expect my then 3 year old 1Ghz Ti-Book to be still very 'fine' in one years time and a 1.5Ghz (w/ faster L2 cache and 2GB RAM (instead of 1GB on my Ti-Book) to be even 'finer'.

 

[MikeBike]

What's the Time Line?

What's the usual time line after introduction at the Microprocessor Forum?
3 months or 1 year?

The difference with the G3 to G4 was Altivec.
There is no huge hardware difference from a G4 to G5.

One difference with IBM's G5 development is a continuing cycle of HARDWARE improvements. So, no matter what you buy today, or 12 months from now, Apple is on a course of much quicker enhancements to it's chips. I remember reading that the next G5, based upon the power5, with have an more advanced Altivec engine and SMT. But, when will that come out.
A year from now, and only in a PowerMac?

The combination of software optimizations and the current single core G5
vs. a dual core G4 with the same optimizations, seems to me just isn't going to overcome the inherent hardware advantages of a dual core chip.
For many years. If Apple goes dual core G4 now, it will have to go dual core G5 in the future, in the power book.

 

[ac_1000]

Freescale 7448 annoucement

Hi,

read there (launch is end of september):

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?nodeId=02VS0llCc5pzMP286165424903

Session: Scalable PowerPC Solutions, Including the Launch of the New High-Performance, Low-Power MPC7448
Session ID: P1303
Level: Basic
Time: Tuesday, 16h45–18h15
Location: 1020–1021
Presenter: Jim Gilbert, Freescale Semiconductor Networking & Computing Systems Group
Abstract: PowerPC Host Processors from Freescale Semiconductor offer the highest-performance embedded PowerPC processors in the world and the highest performance at under 10W across the board. This allows designers to reduce overall power consumption in their systems and maximize the �MIPS per Slot� in rack equipment�whether it is a priority design, or an ATCA-based system.

 

[lha72]

It's an embedded processor. There's nothing to indicate it's going into the next powerbook. It could just as well go into cars, microwave ovens, washing machines, etc.

 

[AidenShaw]

even if...

If Apple goes dual core G4 now, it will have to go dual core G5 in the future, in the power book.

Even if Apple doesn't go dual-core G4, they'll be going dual-core PPC9xx in the future.

Once the Intel notebooks have dual-core "Centrinos" and "Pentium 4s", Apple won't have the option to stay with single cores....

Multi-core is the future, and it's closer than you think (look back a few posts to #222).

 

[pigwin32]

There is no huge hardware difference from a G4 to G5.

Are you trolling? I think you'll find there is substantial hardware difference between the G4 & G5, these devices are not pin compatible and the G5 requires a completely different supporting chipset. As mentioned in a number of previous discussions the issues around getting a G5 into the PB are not just about cooling the G5, but also about cooling the associated chipset. The G5 has power management features that appear to lower the thermal envelope considerably but those features don't necessarily apply to the supporting chipset which is also unlikely to be built using the 90nm process (I'm guessing).

Even a dual-core G4 is going to require some serious re-architecting of the chipset, presumably unless Apple chose to retain the 167MHz FSB which would be totally brainless but potentially an option.

 

[thatwendigo]

However, in <2 years, I don't see that still being the case. Apple has committed to the G5, 64-bit, Tiger, etc... The fact is, the G4 PB is probably going to be EOLed soon. I want a processor that has SOME potential down the road and that can take advantage and fit into the direction Apple is going.

The e600 is 32-bit, dual-core, on-die memory controller with (it's rumored) DDR2 support, and numerous other features - including some mutterings of 128-bit dual precision vector units. While based on the G4e execution units, it is heavily modified, higher clocked, and set on a much faster bus (Freescale RapidIO) to the off-chip compnonents. Its successor, the e700, will be 64-bit with native 32-bit compatibility and a brand new execution core and (as I've heard it) dual 128-bit dual precision vector units.

Just what are you going to be using this 64-bits for? Expecting your laptop to have more than 4GB of RAM anytime soon? Doing higher order math that requires 64-bit integers? If not, you're really not going to see much in the way of speed increase from the "bitness" of your processor.

The G4 is still capable of doing everything I may need today. But why in the world would I buy a chip which was introduced in 1999 and is obviously on its way out.

It's not the same chip.

To make an analogy:
"The PIII is still capable of doing everything I may need today. Why in the world would I buy a chip that was introduced in 1999 and which is obviously on the way out?"

The answer is that the Pentium M is more advanced than either the Penitum 3 or Pentium 4, which is why Intel is transitioning towards the Jonas line of Penitum-M based processors for the desktop. In the same vein, the e600 from Freescale uses a modified G4e core with instruction compatibility, but has an awful lot of modification that makes it a far superior chip, not the least of which is the fact that you're getting a minisculre latency second processor.

🙄

Why spend $3000 on a G4 powerbook that you already know isn't going to be capable of using an already anounced operating system its fullest potential? Besides, not matter how much faster they keep making the G4, the FSB sucks.

This.

Isn't.

The.

G.

4.

Dual core would be nice, but it still doesn't solve the above problems. At this point and time, with the exception of the PowerMac G5, Apple's entire hardware line looks pretty pathetic when compared to the competition; especially their portables'.

RTFA

The chip, as yet unnamed - at least in public - will contain two PowerPC cores with AltiVec, Motorola's SIMD engine. It will also contain its own memory controller, capable of connecting to DDR and DDR 2 SDRAM, according to documents seen by The Register.​

On-die memory means that there won't be a traditional FSB, which means that at least half of what you're complaining about goes away as if by magic!

 

[maddav]

Grrr, this has got me all confused now, I just got a job (I'm only 16) and i was planning in buying a highest spec PB April next year, with an Apple education store discount (my english teacher said he'd write to Apple personally to allow it). I accept that by next April things would've obviously changed, but now the dual-core G4, or G5 ( next Tuesday 😀 ) debacle is getting me confused.

Ho-hum, I'll just save up the £2000+ and see what's out at the time!

 

[AidenShaw]

Ho-hum, I'll just save up the £2000+ and see what's out at the time!

You are wise beyond your years, Grasshopper.

There will always be something better coming - buy what you need when you need it. If you wait for the next rumour to be released you'll never buy.

However - do check the buyer's guide pages here, so that you don't pick up something that's expected to be replaced quite soon.

On the other hand, most changes are incremental - so even if you buy a few months before an upgrade you'll just have something that's a bit slower than the latest. Not obsolete - just a bit below the latest.

My personal tactic is to buy the model just below the top of the line. Usually the cost savings exceed the performance sacrificed, and the system's useful life is the same as the top of the line.

 

[Seanb23]

My personal tactic is to buy the model just below the top of the line. Usually the cost savings exceed the performance sacrificed, and the system's useful life is the same as the top of the line.

Err...last summer I shelled out $3300 for a "top-of-the-line" 1ghz powerbook. Wouldn't need another computer for years, I thought. Oops. Well, one sorry year later, I am truly aware of just how anemic this proc is for my needs (high end audio) even with 1g ram. Should have waited, should have waited...

And now that I have seen what the other side has to offer in mobile technology, I am sorely tempted to sell the thing for half of what I paid for it, and get something about three times as fast. Oh, how I loathe windoze, but at least those 2004 laptops have some 2004 hardware in 'em...

SO, if, and I mean IF these dual core G4 Powerbooks are avaliable by next summer, Apple may just soak me for another 3 1/2 grand, just because I'm personally very prejudiced in favor of OS X, but by that time, I wonder how far along the other side will be ?

I suppose you are right, and the best strategy is to get slightly under top of the line, but...even Apple's top of the line, right now, in laptops, just barely qualifies as "adequate" for many people's needs.

I'm pretty excited by this "dual core" news, though. Maybe it'll change my mind about Powerbook hardware. I certainly want it to...

 

[macsrus]

I suppose you are right, and the best strategy is to get slightly under top of the line, but...even Apple's top of the line, right now, in laptops, just barely qualifies as "adequate" for many people's needs.

I'm pretty excited by this "dual core" news, though. Maybe it'll change my mind about Powerbook hardware. I certainly want it to...

I just got this 15 inch powerbook... A month ago....
I really like it but....It is really very slow....
I have the chance to unload it to one of my coworkers...but I am waiting until Oct... because I have a feeling we will see a new PB announced by then

 

[ceo2b]

G5PB seems out of the question this year, I have woken up 😛

I hope to see higher screen resolutions, dual layer dvd writer, number pad. I think a dual-core, WSXGA+ in 15"/17", 8X-DL, and a keypad are realistic upgrades that could/should occur before the end of 2004.

I yet to understand why higher screen resolutions have not been offered. I think keypads could be considered in the 17" PB line. The DVD-writer can easily be upgraded. All that leaves is the issue of the DCG4 and all the technical circumstances, which I do not wholly understand. With G5 a year or more from now, I think the upgrades I mention are a fair for the interim. Having to wait to Jan is rediculous.

I hope they can have some of these upgrades available by November!

 

[jeffbax]

A probable solution to this is having a single-core one on 12" models but dual-cores on 15" and 17". Who knows...

No, I'm sick of the 12" Being so weak compared to the 15" and 17"!

 

[macsrus]

No, I'm sick of the 12" Being so weak compared to the 15" and 17"!

Then dont buy one.... Simple as that...

 

[MikeBike]

You will be disappointed there too....

And now that I have seen what the other side has to offer in mobile technology, I am sorely tempted to sell the thing for half of what I paid for it, and get something about three times as fast. Oh, how I loathe windoze, but at least those 2004 laptops have some 2004 hardware in 'em...

Intel P4 processors are not three times faster.
Divide the P4 ghz by 2 to compare to the PM, G4 and G5.
I thought everyone knew by now, the P4 was designed by the marketers to push Ghz Numbers to the Unknowing. The P4 is the 4 cylinder engine that HAS TO run at twice the RPM as the V8( PM, G4 and G5 ), relatively speaking, to get the same performance.

Actually, you should look for some kind of content creation benchmark before you go to the dark side, just to be sure you are getting a faster machine.

The problem with any new machine is you get used to the performance in about a week, and your mind gets ahead of the machine from then on.
I'm running on my new 1.5 ghz powerbook and it does not do everything Instantaneously for me. But, I've run some personal benchmarks and it really is 400% faster than my old 550mhz powerbook. My mom things the 550 is faster then her old old thinkpad.

If you want instantaneous software try running some unix scripts in the terminal window. Too bad the software we use can't be run without windowing overhead. The GUI easily adds 50% overhead to everything we do. But, do we want to go back to memorizing command line parameters for everything we run?

 

[Seanb23]

Intel P4 processors are not three times faster.
Divide the P4 ghz by 2 to compare to the PM, G4 and G5.
I thought everyone knew by now, the P4 was designed by the marketers to push Ghz Numbers to the Unknowing. The P4 is the 4 cylinder engine that HAS TO run at twice the RPM as the V8( PM, G4 and G5 ), relatively speaking, to get the same performance.

Actually, you should look for some kind of content creation benchmark before you go to the dark side, just to be sure you are getting a faster machine.

I'm speaking specifically about bleeding edge 2004 PC laptop stuff...M chip and AMD, not P4. These laptops are literally a year and a half or two ahead of Motorola CPU based powerbooks in terms of cpu speed, bus, memory, battery life, and everything else. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news...but the ones I have seen just spank the pants off of much more expensive powerbooks running identical programs. We live in a constant "PC vs Mac" debate household here running super-complex cpu gluttons such as "Reaktor 4", on a friendly level, of course, and...well, I just can't lie to myself.

I vastly prefer OS X and many other features of the powerbooks, though. If they were nearly as fast as the "dark side" I wouldn't even entertain the thought. Hopefully later this year we will see Apple begin to implement better hardware, such as these dual core processors, and begin to catch up. Hopefully...even a nice, modern bus would be a positive start. 😉

 

[beatle888]

No, I'm sick of the 12" Being so weak compared to the 15" and 17"!

thats a strange reaction....they cater to different needs. think different classes. i dont think their suppose to compete with each other so why be disappointed in a lighter class when you have heavyweight options? i dont get it.

 

[Music-Producer]

Err...last summer I shelled out $3300 for a "top-of-the-line" 1ghz powerbook. Wouldn't need another computer for years, I thought. Oops. Well, one sorry year later, I am truly aware of just how anemic this proc is for my needs (high end audio) even with 1g ram. Should have waited, should have waited...

And now that I have seen what the other side has to offer in mobile technology, I am sorely tempted to sell the thing for half of what I paid for it, and get something about three times as fast. Oh, how I loathe windoze, but at least those 2004 laptops have some 2004 hardware in 'em...

SO, if, and I mean IF these dual core G4 Powerbooks are avaliable by next summer, Apple may just soak me for another 3 1/2 grand, just because I'm personally very prejudiced in favor of OS X, but by that time, I wonder how far along the other side will be ?

I suppose you are right, and the best strategy is to get slightly under top of the line, but...even Apple's top of the line, right now, in laptops, just barely qualifies as "adequate" for many people's needs.

I'm pretty excited by this "dual core" news, though. Maybe it'll change my mind about Powerbook hardware. I certainly want it to...

In response to your comment that your 1ghz powerbook with 1gb ram is not enough for 'high end audio' I must say that during a mobile production session, I have managed 64 tracks of audio with plug ins on each track, without any discernible lag (Digital Performer) We were using a SCSI drive of course, (spins at 10,000 rpm) This was on a 500 mhz powerbook G4 with 1 gb ram..so make sure your drive is fast enough. If you're recording on a firewire drive which spins at 7200 rpm..it won't matter if you're using a 2ghz powerbook ..your hard drive has to spin fast enough to handle all that audio. I always see people discussing or buying the fastest computers and then complaining about poor performance. Its the drive and the ram that matters, check out the latest scsi drives which spin at 15,000 rpm. I can guarantee that even a g4 400 mhz computer will work great without any problems with that kind of drive.

 

[Seanb23]

In response to your comment that your 1ghz powerbook with 1gb ram is not enough for 'high end audio' I must say that during a mobile production session, I have managed 64 tracks of audio with plug ins on each track, without any discernible lag (Digital Performer) We were using a SCSI drive of course, (spins at 10,000 rpm) This was on a 500 mhz powerbook G4 with 1 gb ram..so make sure your drive is fast enough. If you're recording on a firewire drive which spins at 7200 rpm..it won't matter if you're using a 2ghz powerbook ..your hard drive has to spin fast enough to handle all that audio. I always see people discussing or buying the fastest computers and then complaining about poor performance. Its the drive and the ram that matters, check out the latest scsi drives which spin at 15,000 rpm. I can guarantee that even a g4 400 mhz computer will work great without any problems with that kind of drive.

I like my computer setup to be mobile. Currently, about 3 or 4 heavy duty ensembles on R4 alone push right up on the high, arched roof of the beautiful cathedral called OS X. R4 opened as a vst under Live pushes this further and strains it.

Well, in a few years, hopefully, your setup will trickle down to us snobby powerbook people...damn, 64...s i x t y f o u r...tracks. Well...that's pretty impressive.

 

[AidenShaw]

thats a strange reaction....they cater to different needs. think different classes. i dont think their suppose to compete with each other so why be disappointed in a lighter class when you have heavyweight options? i dont get it.

What if you want a more powerful CPU, or a PC Card slot, or 1394b - but you feel that the 15" and 17" are just too darn big and heavy?

 

[macsrus]

What if you want a more powerful CPU, or a PC Card slot, or 1394b - but you feel that the 15" and 17" are just too darn big and heavy?

It doesnt matter what we want.....
The Almighty Steve decides what we want

I have been attacked numerous times on these boards for just suggesting that I would like PDA functionality added to the iPod...

And have to listen to people tell me how the Almighty God... aka.. Jobs knows and understands better what I want and need...

So If God doesnt want us to have a better 12" PB then we wont...

Your only choice is not to buy it..... But then again the Apple flock...aka Sheep.... always follow their masters voice

 

[beatle888]

I like my computer setup to be mobile. Currently, about 3 or 4 heavy duty ensembles on R4 alone push right up on the high, arched roof of the beautiful cathedral called OS X. R4 opened as a vst under Live pushes this further and strains it.

Well, in a few years, hopefully, your setup will trickle down to us snobby powerbook people...damn, 64...s i x t y f o u r...tracks. Well...that's pretty impressive.

Hitachi-IBM Travelstar 7200RPM ultraslim notebook hard drive.

 

[beatle888]

What if you want a more powerful CPU, or a PC Card slot, or 1394b - but you feel that the 15" and 17" are just too darn big and heavy?

that wasnt his point. he said he was sick of the 12 compared to the 15. in your scenario i would say lift some weights or higher a caddy 😛

 

[beatle888]

It doesnt matter what we want.....
The Almighty Steve decides what we want

I have been attacked numerous times on these boards for just suggesting that I would like PDA functionality added to the iPod...

And have to listen to people tell me how the Almighty God... aka.. Jobs knows and understands better what I want and need...

So If God doesnt want us to have a better 12" PB then we wont...

Your only choice is not to buy it..... But then again the Apple flock...aka Sheep.... always follow their masters voice

i dont think apple is trying to tell us what we want so much as their trying to figure out what the masses want and how their going to meet that need and make a profit. you make it sound like SJ's some horrific dictator.