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PowerBook Updates -- As Early as Next Week?

Originally posted by hexor
If something does come out tuesday they are sure doing a good job keeping it quite this time. Maybe we should find out where Steve lives and watch what he brings home at night :)
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Alls I can say is that I better get some good news from Apple this week. It better be:

a. My DPG5 shipping

or...

b. New 'books.
 
While you're waiting for new Powerbooks, they have some really good deals for students and educators. I just got a new 12" PB and 10GB iPod for $1469 + tax total after rebate ($200 off PB and $30 off iPod for being an educator, then $200 rebate on top of that). Even if they come out with a new 12" in the next week, I doubt they'll be anywhere near that price for at least 6 months.
 
Like General Elections

This is like waitng for the returns from the General Election to see whom the next President or PM will be.
but I'm not holding my breath. They may not release it until 2004. let's say that they release it on Tuesday or durring the French conference, It would prolly cut into whatever profits/designs that they may have incase they do do something in Feb.

Regards,

MP Bruja
 
I called Apple earlier this week to ask a question about my Apple loan. The guy on the phone asked if I wanted to order anything, and I told him yes but I was waiting until Tuesday. His reply..
"Ah, so you're hoping for a 15" aluminum with firewire 800, airport extreme, and more harddrive space"? And I was like, yeah actually I am. And he says "Oh ok, I understand then". Not like it means anything, but I thought it was funny he didn't deny anything.
 
New Pb's vs. current iBook...

Like everyone else here I too have been waiting for Apple to update their powerbooks before school starts. As a teacher, I qualify for the ed. discount. However this weekend I stopped by an Applestore, who by the way was selling Macs hand over fist, they had a "refreshed" 900mhz combo 12" ibook for $1149. Thats even cheaper than the ed. discount. I jumped on it. I am amazed by the speed jump over the 333 Lombard I have been using for the past 3.5 years. even with only 128 megs Ram (512 has already been ordered). It is so easy to buy into the hoopla surrounding "the latest and greatest". I was hoping to wait for an upgraded 12" alubook. After reading the Macbench scores, in which the current 12" pb was only faster than the iBook in 3 tests and then only marginally; I decided to go iBook. We, at least I did, easily forget that for most of us, any new laptop/desktop is going to show a workable improvement. I've got a little white gem here that will run tough and quick for years to come, especially when Panther is released! Buy what you need, when you need it. As has been quoted often... "If you wait for just the right computer at the right price at the right time...well you'll never buy anything." I hope Apple does release updates across the PB line Tuesday. They really need to for many reasons. And when they do, some people will be thrilled, some indifferent and some disappointed. Heck, even if they put G5's in all three, we're going to hear from the same range. Good luck to all of you waiting for Tuesday, I hope Apple gives you what you want.
 
Originally posted by dwalls32
I called Apple earlier this week to ask a question about my Apple loan. The guy on the phone asked if I wanted to order anything, and I told him yes but I was waiting until Tuesday. His reply..
"Ah, so you're hoping for a 15" aluminum with firewire 800, airport extreme, and more harddrive space"? And I was like, yeah actually I am. And he says "Oh ok, I understand then". Not like it means anything, but I thought it was funny he didn't deny anything.
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I wish I worked at Apple sometimes :)
 
Re: Like General Elections

:D that is a good one.

I'm waiting for my PB 17" speedbump

this will be my first laptop and my second Mac

I'm using my iMac DV SE 500 right now
I hope I would not have to wait for Paris Expo
 
Re: New Pb's vs. current iBook...

Originally posted by coachingguy
Like everyone else here I too have been waiting for Apple to update their powerbooks before school starts. As a teacher, I qualify for the ed. discount. However this weekend I stopped by an Applestore, who by the way was selling Macs hand over fist, they had a "refreshed" 900mhz combo 12" ibook for $1149. Thats even cheaper than the ed. discount. I jumped on it. I am amazed by the speed jump over the 333 Lombard I have been using for the past 3.5 years. even with only 128 megs Ram (512 has already been ordered). It is so easy to buy into the hoopla surrounding "the latest and greatest". I was hoping to wait for an upgraded 12" alubook. After reading the Macbench scores, in which the current 12" pb was only faster than the iBook in 3 tests and then only marginally; I decided to go iBook. We, at least I did, easily forget that for most of us, any new laptop/desktop is going to show a workable improvement. I've got a little white gem here that will run tough and quick for years to come, especially when Panther is released! Buy what you need, when you need it. As has been quoted often... "If you wait for just the right computer at the right price at the right time...well you'll never buy anything." I hope Apple does release updates across the PB line Tuesday. They really need to for many reasons. And when they do, some people will be thrilled, some indifferent and some disappointed. Heck, even if they put G5's in all three, we're going to hear from the same range. Good luck to all of you waiting for Tuesday, I hope Apple gives you what you want.
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good move. I've actually been looking at the iBooks again myself for the same reasons.
 
Originally posted by soggywulf
I would call very little of this R&D. I believe Apple had a hand in the technical development of firewire, so that is research, or applied research anyway. But as for the rest--these are just things that Apple decided to put in their systems ahead of time. Which is fine, but it is not R&D and it is not something that justifies higher cost as such, certainly not now long after the fact. As far as the iApps--yes they are very nice and well-designed etc. But R&D? Large budget? No, I would not say that. Certainly not the stuff they bundle with the machines. Open-GL GUI acceleration, now that is something pretty cool. But I would put that in the same "advantage cubbyhole" as OSX itself.
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Not much money into R&D? Businessweek apparently thinks differently.
 
Another Tuesday Come and Gone

Each Tuesday morning i feel like i did on January 1, 2000. I really want something big to happen but i just know its not going to. Maybe updated G4 Powerbooks are Apple's Y2K. Each weekly build-up could be for naught, and the next update we see could be to the G5PB at Macworld SF. Heres hoping... in the meantime i'm buying a discounted 17in through my school. Good luck to those of you still waiting.
 
Originally posted by dwalls32
I called Apple earlier this week to ask a question about my Apple loan. The guy on the phone asked if I wanted to order anything, and I told him yes but I was waiting until Tuesday. His reply..
"Ah, so you're hoping for a 15" aluminum with firewire 800, airport extreme, and more harddrive space"? And I was like, yeah actually I am. And he says "Oh ok, I understand then". Not like it means anything, but I thought it was funny he didn't deny anything.
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It is no secret Apple knows what the rumors are. But as a matter of policy they can't comment about the truth or falsity of it. The lack of comment to some speaks volumes. To others only makes the rumormill all the more feeling hyped.
 
if apple were to work half as hard being innovative and building computers, as they do trying to keep them secret. i would not have to be posting in this newsgroup. Steve, just let me pre-order my new 15"pb. PLEASE ! stop the madness
 
Originally posted by soggywulf
Well, I did a search for "research" in that article, and the only match was "market researcher IDC". :) So, I'm not sure where you are getting "R&D" from this.
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Couldn't be bothered to actually read the article, eh?

"Apple's gross margins are the envy of the industry," says IDC analyst Roger Kay. "But below the line, they give it all back. They pour money into R&D and [selling, general, and administrative expenses]. They have expensive retail locations and high-end advertising. It's a Cadillac operation."
 
Steve..... You can't break my SPIRIT man !
I will perservere.
I will not buy your old 15"pb. I will wait you out!

Time...... is on my side..........
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Couldn't be bothered to actually read the article, eh?
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No I couldn't, and I apologize. Thanks for pulling out the relevant quote.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
"Apple's gross margins are the envy of the industry," says IDC analyst Roger Kay. "But below the line, they give it all back. They pour money into R&D and [selling, general, and administrative expenses]. They have expensive retail locations and high-end advertising. It's a Cadillac operation."
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Unfortunately, this quote doesn't hold much weight with me. What R&D exactly is Apple doing? I think it more likely that Mr Kay doesn't really know what R&D means. Perhaps he thinks that the iTunes music store is research? So I am still unconvinced that Apple is doing any R&D at the moment.

And to tie this back in to my previous point, since Apple does not do R&D, this cannot be a valid reason for Apple products to be overpriced.
 
Originally posted by soggywulf
No I couldn't, and I apologize. Thanks for pulling out the relevant quote.



Unfortunately, this quote doesn't hold much weight with me. What R&D exactly is Apple doing? I think it more likely that Mr Kay doesn't really know what R&D means. Perhaps he thinks that the iTunes music store is research? So I am still unconvinced that Apple is doing any R&D at the moment.

And to tie this back in to my previous point, since Apple does not do R&D, this cannot be a valid reason for Apple products to be overpriced.
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Don't confuse him with facts; his mind is already made up.
 
Originally posted by Potus
Don't confuse him with facts; his mind is already made up.
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Oh come on, no need to get all huffy. :) Some marketing guy saying "R&D" doesn't qualify as evidence to me, and it shouldn't to you either. Now, the invention of firewire--that is R&D. But what similar kinds of things has Apple done recently?
 
Originally posted by soggywulf
What R&D exactly is Apple doing? I think it more likely that Mr Kay doesn't really know what R&D means. Perhaps he thinks that the iTunes music store is research?
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Um, there's more than "R" in the "R&D". The "D" part means taking the results of research and developing them into marketable products. Research need not be only the development of technical standards. Both Apple and Microsoft spend a lot of money on studying people and how they use technology through, for example, ethnographic observations and ethnomethodological analyses. Such research is key to the design and development of Apple's "cool" products.

I agree that Apple is likely spending less, during these economic times, on the "R" than they have in the past, but they also have a lot of prior "R" results that they can now "D" to maintain corporate viability. So, I don't mind a little more focus on the "D" (if that's what they're doing).

In this context, yes, developing the iTunes Muic Store does qualify as R&D. Apple is trying to extend that market to 1) Windows users and 2) Europe. Both of these new markets are fundamentally different than US Mac users (diferent cultures, different patterns of technology use, different semantics/language, etc.). Simply imposing the US-centric, Mac-centric solution they have now to these markets may not guarantee failure, but will certainly make it more difficult to make it succeed. Re-considering thir existing solution in the light of what they know about these markets increases the likelihood of success.

For example, Jonathan Grudin wrote a seminal CSCW paper (1988) that described how such systems fail when the burden of effort to use a technology is unevenly distributed. A classic example is when system designers take the "easy" route in their designs (by imposing technologically deterministic solutions) and require extra effort on the part of end-users to actually use the technology. Users, not surprisingly, don't use the technology and it fails. By taking more care in developing their designs, Apple can mitigate this problem.

So, don't think poorly of Appple because they are perhaps focusing on the D and not the R right now ...

Afterthought/Edit: Actually, I think Apple's focus on the "people" side of technology use is a key core competency and is what distinguishes Apple from Microsoft ... Apple actually pays attention to its social research and Microsoft is more technologically deterministic. Arguably, Microsoft's success in the corporate arena reflects its perception of organizations as "machines" ... which corresponds to much thought by corporate senior management in planning for technology use ... but poorly reflects the situated technology uses by individuals and groups in the attainment of organizational goals.

Apple understands the latter better, but can't crack the mindset of management. Bill gates understands individual workers as cogs in a money machine ... Steve Jobs understands workers as individuals.
 
Hi Soggy,

You seem pretty determined to kinda downplay Apple don't ya? Now what's your definition of R&D? Is it brand new technologies like Firewire? Is it cool products like iPod? Is it design marvel's like iMac? Is it cutting edge technology implementation like PM G5? Is it intuitive and/or awesome and/or powerful software like iApps or MacOS X or FPC?

Honestly I don't think that research and development is a brand new technology that nobody has come up with it. The computer industry is coming into maturity and the "wow" factor is not there as oftne as it used to be. I mean the GUI then the mouse, then Multimedia, now Digital hub - these apply just as much to Macs as do to PCs. I just believe that the world of PC (Wintel and Macs and all the rest of course) is mature enough to where you really cannot have as many revolutions as evolutions. And that is what Apple has been doing.

For me you do need a certain amount of cash, man hours, brain power, creativity ie Research to come up with the simplicity and power of the iMac and iPod. You need a lot of research to create a music store that is actually going to sell music and you need a ton more of that research in order to create an OS as elegant and user friendly as OS X. MS has a huge research budget but they don't come up with brand new products or revolutionary ideas every year or every five years. They just incorporate the knowledge and the findings of their results in their products gradually as the ideas find obvious uses and as products from lab work become actual working solutions.

You also have to add to the above that research today does not mean application today. Research can be done in much more exotic or far fetched subjects with the hope that you will have solutions to tomorrows problems and not only todays. For example Voice Recognition research has been going on forever and only some 4 years ago actual working products came to market that could be soltuions to actual problems and not only gimmicks and it seems like it is going to take at least another 5 years before they can become common place.

To sum up Apple does incorporate past and present research to its products. These products might not be whole new concepts or may not be ground braking but they are several steps ahead of similar offerings from other vendors. This can only be attributed to the "R" on which Apple invests in. I also think that they invest in "R" for tomorrow's "D". Therefore I don't believe you can so easily dismiss Apple's R&D efforts only because it does not introduce a "mouse" or a "GUI" or a "Firewire" every year.
 
Originally posted by vrapan
You seem pretty determined to kinda downplay Apple don't ya?
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That is actually not my intention, although I understand of course this impression is what is causing animosity with some folks. My point is not to say that Apple doesn't do anything good. My point is that R&D is not an explanation of Apple's higher prices. This whole R&D thing got started by someone saying "Apple has a lot of extra costs, like R&D, which justifies their high prices". My assertion in all of this is that I don't think Apple has any special extra costs associated with hi-cost R&D like what you might find at, say, Bell Labs.

Originally posted by vrapan
Now what's your definition of R&D?
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A valid question. Some examples of R&D: Research into the 65 nm process; research into new interface paradigms; creation of a new type of laser for use in optical networking. Things that are inventions. Not just building a new product. Dell builds new products too, but we don't call that R&D.

Originally posted by vrapan
I just believe that the world of PC (Wintel and Macs and all the rest of course) is mature enough to where you really cannot have as many revolutions as evolutions. And that is what Apple has been doing.
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I disagree. There is plenty of research happening, for example in the field of virtual reality and defining VR interfaces. Is Apple involved with this? (that is not a rhetorical question...I have been asking for an example of current Apple research activities, and I think this type of thing would qualify).

Originally posted by vrapan
For me you do need a certain amount of cash, man hours, brain power, creativity ie Research to come up with the simplicity and power of the iMac and iPod.
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This is the crux of it. If you define research in those terms, everything is research, and the word has no meaning.

Originally posted by vrapan
For example Voice Recognition research has been going on forever and only some 4 years ago actual working products came to market that could be soltuions to actual problems and not only gimmicks and it seems like it is going to take at least another 5 years before they can become common place.
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OK, here is another example of research. Has Apple recently pursued R&D into voice recognition? I believe they had in the past, but again I think Apple has gotten out of this kind of R&D.




Originally posted by robodweeb
Both Apple and Microsoft spend a lot of money on studying people and how they use technology through, for example, ethnographic observations and ethnomethodological analyses. Such research is key to the design and development of Apple's "cool" products.
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OK, this seems reasonable. Normally the term "R&D" is used to describe technical research, but this kind of thing does cost extra money as well.

Now, the question is this. There is an implication here that Apple is bearing a larger burden of R&D, or knowledge discovery, or whatever you want to call it, than the combination of MS and Dell and whoever else. Do you think that is really the case? Does it justify a higher powerbook price?

Originally posted by robodweeb
In this context, yes, developing the iTunes Muic Store does qualify as R&D.
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In the context of our discussion, this is like saying "Mac Users spend more on their powerbooks so that Apple can create a cool new music store so that Apple can make more money for itself." This sounds pretty wierd, right? This is what you are implying if you say that overpriced powerbooks fund Apple research, and an example of Apple research is the iTMS. What would sound more reasonable is the following: Apple makes powerbooks and sells them at competitive prices; and Apple invests some money to create the iTMS, which is a well-designed and well-planned operation that makes a handsome return on investment for Apple.
 
Let me make a couple more points that will hopefully clarify my arguments.

I initially said that I might be mistaken about Apple's (lack of) involvement in R&D. I still think the same--that I might be mistaken. But I still feel that I have not seen evidence of recent technical R&D from Apple (R&D as distinct from product development). Perhaps this depends on the definitions of "research" and even "development" (I tend to think of "D" not as product development but rather as development of the state-of-the-art, the advancement of technology). If Apple does indeed have research labs that I have not heard of, then I will happily stand corrected.

However, I think by responding to the R&D comment before, I have muddled this discussion from the original one--which was concerned with the price and value of powerbooks. The discussion of "what is research" is getting away from the issue at hand, which is "should powerbooks be expensive because of that research, or whatever it is". Now I would like to get back to that.

I think that research is something that the company does in its own interest. It is something that is funded by the company, and its value is determined by the company in terms of ROI. That is not a complete definition of research, because of course all work done by the company fits into that category. But I would like to highlight this part of the definition, because it is distinct from the way we should objectively characterize the value of a product like the powerbook. Such a product should be measured in terms of itself, not the amount of money it took to develop it, and not what might be done with the profits realized by the company that sells it.

So judging the current powerbook on its own, I think it is overpriced. I also think the rumored 7457 powerbooks are overpriced at the same price points. I think if Apple had developed a G5 laptop in the past year and sold it now at the current price points, that would be a reasonable value.
 
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