PowerBook Updates? Dual G4 Core?

[jnasato]

Another Tuesday to wait for... Another Tuesday to wait for.....

 

[dongmin]

Apple's PowerBook has seen the longest lead-times since revision... with the last PowerBook update released in April 2004.

Although initially predicting PowerBook updates for MWSF 2005, ThinkSecret recently revised their prediction to this Tuesday at the latest.

Despite speculation and rumors of PowerBook G5 updates, more realistic expectations predict G4 PowerBooks up to 1.5/1.67 GHz.

Recent unconfirmed hints, however, have noted that previous rumors of Dual-Core G4 processors making their way into the PowerBook may be true... with some expecting that the new PowerBooks will make use of the new dual-core G4 chips as early as this week.

I'm sorry but these PB rumors are really getting out of hand. First of all, there is no way in hell that the dual-core MPC8641D is going into a laptop. Did you guys even bother to check the specs? It has four gigabit ethernet controllers built in. Enlighten me guys: why in the heck would a CPU designed for a laptop have four ethernet controllers in it? Secondly, the 8641D is not even sampling until second half of 2005 (at least according to the Register). Now the Register has been plenty wrong before, but you gotta show me some pretty solid evidence to refute that.

So basically for a dual-core G4 to happen any time soon, two things need to happen: 1) Freescale needs to produce a brand new variant of the MPC8641D that's more suited for a laptop; and 2) they need to be on a way faster schedule that what's been published. And let's get serious here: Freescale hasn't even shipped the 7448 which is a lot less of a vaporware than the dual-core G4.

 

[-=MaC-FiNdEr=-]

Seems like this will be a perfect fit for the next mini (and maybe emac) revision. Apple won't even have problems with the G4/G5 moniker.

 

[jared_kipe]

As much as I would love to see this, I don't believe dual core or G5's will be out anytime soon. Firstly the G5 seems to be proving too hot even at lousy clockspeeds of 1.6 or 1.8, clockspeeds that a G4 1.5 or 1.67 would probably own them at. And the biggest problem with the dual core version is.... nobody has actually seen these yet, freescale said they would start shipping working models in early 05, so I don't believe apple has had sufficient time to design a powerbook around them. In theory they might have the new single 90nm G4s in them. But we'll see.

 

[Zaty]

First of all, if Apple were to use those dual core CPUs, we wouldn't see a PB G5 for at least another 18 months. I still believe, putting a G5 into a PB is Apple's top priority, if only for marketing reasons. Above all, 64 bit processing is the future. Since those dual core CPUs are not pin-compatible with the 744X, I don't think Apple would spend a lot of money designing a completely new main board for one revision (maybe two). Some people might be surprised but even if TS is correct, there is a good reason why Apple hasn't updated the PBs any sooner. The new 2.5" 100 GB HDDs! Production started only recently. Since the new revision wil have the same GPUs as last revision and only slightly faster CPUs, Apple had to use the brand new 100 GB drives to make the upgrade at least somewhat worthwhile.

 

[dongmin]

I'm know I'm sounding like a broken record here, but did I mention that Apple is working on a G5 laptop right now (on the record; again). So why would Apple redesign the motherboard to accomodate a dual-core G4 only to do another redesign a year later? Apple is all about recyling existing technologies (see Mac Mini). The only real possibility I see is Apple dropping in the 7448 for an iteration or two before making way for a mobile G5.

 

[joecirca79]

I expect only a minor update. I highly doubt apple would put out a g5 laptop. It is too early and they simply aren't ready due to the heat issues. Second, it would be a bad marketing move to make the new PB's thicker than what they are right now. Hopefully Apple learned something with the faulty revision A PB's to release something that isn't somehwat more proven. People have been waiting a long time for G5's to be used in the PB line so I am pretty confident that they will wait until they are good and ready.

 

[sw1tcher]

i still think it just going to be a minor speed bump ... if it was something big they would of announced it during the keynote ... i think the g5 would be release along with tiger when it is realease ... there better not be a big upgrade tuesday because my 1.5MHz 15" powerbook should arrive tommorrow and is BTO so i can't return it!

If it is 1.5MHz you better return it.

 

[jadam]

I'm know I'm sounding like a broken record here, but did I mention that Apple is working on a G5 laptop right now (on the record; again). So why would Apple redesign the motherboard to accomodate a dual-core G4 only to do another redesign a year later? Apple is all about recyling existing technologies (see Mac Mini). The only real possibility I see is Apple dropping in the 7448 for an iteration or two before making way for a mobile G5.

Umm has it ever occured to you that the dual core e600 IS the G5 mobile. You know the G1-G2-G3-G4-G5-G6 numbering scheme is completely arbitrary and is set up by appple right? If apple decides to call an e600 a G5m, well they can do that. If they decide to call it a G9 they can do that too. Just because its not based off of the 970fx does not make it any bit less a G5m or G9.

 

[cmoney]

Umm has it ever occured to you that the dual core e600 IS the G5 mobile. You know the G1-G2-G3-G4-G5-G6 numbering scheme is completely arbitrary and is set up by appple right? If apple decides to call an e600 a G5m, well they can do that. If they decide to call it a G9 they can do that too. Just because its not based off of the 970fx does not make it any bit less a G5m or G9.

The tech world would rip Apple a new one if they did that. They'd immediately say that Apple wasn't up to the engineering challenge of putting a "real" G5 into a PowerBook, and copped out as a result by putting in what's really a dual-core G4.

 

[sw1tcher]

Why the delay?

I hope it's either a dual-core or a G5 in the next update. Waiting to pick up 2.

If they're not, then why such a long delay in updating them? Is there a component shortage or something? I'm curious as to what possible reason Apple could have for delaying the PB updates for so long.

 

[mark6051]

Hows this for a thought ?

With all the trouble that Apple (and other manufacturers) are having with heat issues..What about if Jobs sidestepped the powerbook G5 issue completely?
Maybe, if its ready, he is going to put the dual core G4 into an all new powerbook range. Hey presto! you avoid G5 tower comparisons because you can't really compare a laptop to a desk machine.

Apples lineup could then be completed by dropping off the single cpu g5 now available. There would be dual cpu's across the floor for their power desktop/ laptop range and dropping to single processors for their consumer lines. I think they will maintain the aluminium look, but with a twist, maybe less metal or with a different texture or finish, but still very utilitarian.

 

[joepunk]

Lucky you. My dent is right on the power plug, and makes it almost impossible to charge. You have to get the charger in at just the right angle and put pressure on it to charge

Ouch.

I can still fit a ethernet cable perfectly without any problems. It's just a cosmetic thing. Could have been worse for me, FW or USB or power port (like yours).

P.S - don't you guys have anything better to do at 12.30am?! I mean at least I have the... 5 hour... time difference... *ahem*

It's called late night Graphic Design class assignment 40hrs weekend work (that's what my teacher calls it). About to turn in though.

night

 

[sjl]

It has four gigabit ethernet controllers built in. Enlighten me guys: why in the heck would a CPU designed for a laptop have four ethernet controllers in it?

Why would it not? If you only need one gigabit controller, just hook up one gigabit controller and ignore the others. It's like a bunch of motherboards that came out after nVidia released the nForce 2 chipset: the chipset supports FireWire, but a lot of motherboards didn't include a header to let you use it. It may well be cheaper overall to just release one CPU with the four controllers than to tool up for different versions where the only difference is the number of ethernet controllers onboard.

 

[sjl]

Umm has it ever occured to you that the dual core e600 IS the G5 mobile. You know the G1-G2-G3-G4-G5-G6 numbering scheme is completely arbitrary and is set up by appple right? If apple decides to call an e600 a G5m, well they can do that. If they decide to call it a G9 they can do that too. Just because its not based off of the 970fx does not make it any bit less a G5m or G9.

I doubt Apple would do that. One of the major selling points of the G5 is that it's 64 bit. I'd be extremely surprised if they muddied the waters by releasing a "G5" system with a 32 bit CPU.

All that said, I'd love to see a dual G4-core-based PowerBook be released, under whatever name. It would whomp all over a single G5-core-based system, especially since so much Mac software is coded to work with multiple CPUs.

 

[beatle888]

Now the Register has been plenty wrong before, but you gotta show me some pretty solid evidence to refute that.

you've given yourself the evidence in the first half of your sentence.

 

[jadam]

I doubt Apple would do that. One of the major selling points of the G5 is that it's 64 bit. I'd be extremely surprised if they muddied the waters by releasing a "G5" system with a 32 bit CPU.

All that said, I'd love to see a dual G4-core-based PowerBook be released, under whatever name. It would whomp all over a single G5-core-based system, especially since so much Mac software is coded to work with multiple CPUs.

No THE major selling point of the 970fx series is that it has insane amounts of memory bandwith. Not to mention, it started out with some rather high clockspeeds. Honestly, the fact its 64bit doesn't affect much at all.

And even a single core e600 would destroy a single core 970fx at the same clock speed. The 970's altivec unit is a bit crippled compared to the G4s Not to mention, the G4s tend to be much more efficient.

 

[Caiwyn]

Recent unconfirmed hints, however, have noted that previous rumors of Dual-Core G4 processors making their way into the PowerBook may be true... with some expecting that the new PowerBooks will make use of the new dual-core G4 chips as early as this week.

Huh? What recent unconfirmed hints? Give us a link, because there hasn't been a single report from Macrumors, Macnn, Think Secret, or Apple Insider to indicate this. This is the sloppiest reporting I've seen from any of those sites -- if there's information to back this up, give us a link, or at least a quote!

Look, people. Freescale has already said that the dual-core G4 isn't expected to even sample until the second half of this year, and it would take a couple of months after that to get into full production, if history is any indication. So unless they've been lying all this time about their schedule, the dual-core G4 isn't happening. In fact, based on the information we have, a new low-power G5 from IBM is more plausible than a dual-core G4 right now.

Several months back, ThinkSecret reported that IBM was working on a new G5 chip, the PPC970GX (to replace the current PPC970FX). According to that article the 970GX was expected by the second quarter of 2005. The expected date of the dual-core version of that chip was unknown. The MOST likely candidate for the new powerbooks is the MPC7448, which is a single-core G4, a drop-in replacement for the current chip that will run faster and have twice as much L2 cache. But believe it or not, a dual-core G5 is more likely than a dual-core G4 right now.

Oh, and just to clear things up, the dual-core G4 is NOT 64-bit.

Don't get me wrong, a dual-core G4 would be great. But unless someone has information that contradicts every single article about the dual-core G4's expected timeframe, this is more flimsy than rumors about a new G5. Is Macrumors slipping?

 

[pigwin32]

Spot on HiRez, hype that mostly seems to affect those in this forum mostly, which sorta knocks holes that Mac users are smarter than peecee lusers. So there'll still be a few clueless around here thinking G5 will save their tiny feeble worlds, no biggie, I think the bigger picture types will figure it out quickly and the public in general really wasn't sure what a G5 was that much so I think the damages would be minimal.

Apple needs a but kicking, Tiger rocking, greatly speeded up Powerbook like yesterday and the Freescale 64 bit G4 is just the ticket. If some don't get it, they're loss.

Your invective could use some polish in spelling and grammar, maybe if you wiped the spittle off your monitor you might be able to correct some of those errors. For some reason you remind me of the green dinosaur in Toy Story trying to roar.

 

[Caiwyn]

Your invective could use some polish in spelling and grammar, maybe if you wiped the spittle off your monitor you might be able to correct some of those errors. For some reason you remind me of the green dinosaur in Toy Story trying to roar.

Heh. It could also use some good old-fashioned fact-checking. The dual-core G4 is NOT a 64-bit chip. If it was, it would be a G5.

 

[pigwin32]

I know others have speculated in both directions on the feasibility of a dual-core notebook processor, but a quick look at the Freescale fact sheets indicates that the 90nm dual-core processor (e600 MPC8641D) has a power dissipation almost exactly the same as the current 130nm G4 in the shipping Powerbooks at the same 1.5ghz. Thus, it is certainly within the realm of possibility -- from a thermal/power design standpoint -- to use these in a new Powerbook. Indeed, as you'll see soon enough from the directions Intel, AMD, and IBM all take over the next ~12 months with their power-optimized laptop chips (Pentium-M, et al.), everyone is quickly realizing that multiple cores and similar parallel architectures scale performance/Watt much, much better than increasing clock speed. In short, this isn't just a far-fetched fantasy in Mac land -- pretty much every performance thin-and-light laptop will have dual cores in 12-18 months time, at the latest, with first launches coming over the next few months.

The real kicker with a dual-core e600 Powerbook, though, comes on two fronts: total system power, and performance.

On the power side, while I pointed out that the power budget for the dual-core chip around 1.5ghz is quite near the current 130nm 7447 in the same clock range, the e600 is a highly integrated system-on-chip. It includes gigabit ethernet, PCI Express, Rapid-IO (likely used as a southbridge interface, in the case of a computer), AND a memory controller integrated into this one package. This takes the place of the TWO highest power-consumption chips in the current Powerbook (CPU and memory controller), as well as a variety of secondary chips (ethernet controller, etc. offload much of the logic for the "southbridge" and secondary controllers). In all, this means you can run a dual-core e600 in quite a bit less total system power than the current G4 systems, at the same clock rate.

Now, even running at the same clock rate, and even ignoring the entire second processor, the e600 is also dramatically higher-performance than the current 7447. It has twice the cache per-core, which provides a big boost, and it actually has a modern memory bus -- up to 8 times the bandwidth to memory and 8 times the actual achievable bandwidth into each core (as I understand it, DDR-333 memory is pretty useless on the 7447, which actually only consumes data at 166mhz single data-rate). In some sense, you can think of this as 16x the effective bandwidth, with 667mhz DDR2. This instantly fixes the one glaring problem which has been holding the G4 back so much with respect to the G5 -- and then some. And even better, all this bandwidth is available at super-low latency, since the memory controller is on-chip. In the case of the AMD Athlon 64 -- the only other mainstream processor with a fast on-chip memory controller -- this, alone, improved performance in the range of 10-20% per-clock, according to most estimates. And finally, if Apple actually uses this opportunity to make the leap to PCI Express, it will mean a jump in GPU-to-memory bandwidth of 2x or more. This may seem insignificant outside of games, but in fact, this is one of the major limiting factors in Quartz Extreme performance, as it is implemented today (using AGP texturing direct from host memory), and would likely provide a very healthy boost in system-wide performance.

Anyway, I just wanted to set out a somewhat comprehensive perspective on why the dual-core e600 G4 makes so much practical, non-pie-in-the-skie sense right now, if only Apple can actually get supplied with them and avoid the marketing trap of the "G5 transition." The e600 is hands-down the highest-performance, lowest system cost, most power-efficient option on the table for the next 6-12 months, barring some absolutely incredible work from IBM. Even then, it's still a very strong choice, just not the only one.

It's just a shame the dual-core e600 G4 doesn't exist, otherwise I agree with you completely. And a dual-core 970GX 65nm G5 also makes practical non-pie-in-the-skie sense right now but sadly it doesn't exist either.

 

[jadam]

Heh. It could also use some good old-fashioned fact-checking. The dual-core G4 is NOT a 64-bit chip. If it was, it would be a G5.

No... G5 is whatever apple wants it to be. The chip you are currently thinking of is the IBM 970fx. The 64bit version of the e600 and current G4s is the e700 from motorola.

 

[jadam]

It's just a shame the dual-core e600 G4 doesn't exist, otherwise I agree with you completely. And a dual-core 970GX 65nm G5 also makes practical non-pie-in-the-skie sense right now but sadly it doesn't exist either.

What makes you say it doesn't exist? Im pretty damned sure motorola has a bunch of these processors working perfectly fine in their labs and just waiting to be manufactured.

 

[yamabushi]

Disabling or ignoring the extra ethernet controllers should be a simple matter. Any of the new Freescale chips would be a welcome improvement. Of course either of the mpx bus based chips would be absolutely amazing to have in a Powerbook. Call it a G4XT or G4+ or whatever. I don't care - just provide a serious perfomance boost. Enough of these modest speed bumps. Give us some serious power throughout the system including 512MB base RAM.

 

[Caiwyn]

No... G5 is whatever apple wants it to be. The chip you are currently thinking of is the IBM 970fx. The 64bit version of the e600 and current G4s is the e700 from motorola.

Yes. And my point was that the dual-core G4 uses the e600 core. Which is not 64-bit. Apple wouldn't dilute the G5 brand by slapping it on a 32-bit chip. They might call it a G5M, but that'd be a desperate marketing gimmick. My point stands -- the 8641D -- which is the only "dual-core G4" out there -- is not due out until the second half of this year, and it is not a 64-bit chip. If it were 64-bit, it would essentially have all the capabilities of a G5, and that's what Apple would call it.