PowerMac G3 350MHz B&W!!

[B S Magnet]

The FX5200 very much supports CI. It's not a particularly good CI card(enough that, IIRC, Leopard disables some of the animations by default with it), but it does support it.

I remember not having to manually enable it on PCI NWR Macs-it just worked when I stuck a flashed 5200 in a Yikes!

I find this intriguing. One of the visible indicators of Core Image and Quartz Extreme hardware support in Leopard, as I’ve long understood it, is the menubar, in a default fresh installation of Leopard, displays as transparent. Ever since installing Leopard on my G5 (which has the OEM GeForce FX 5200 AGP card), that feature has never appeared (the default was a greyish opaque menubar, which I have since made “transparent” via a launchctl configuration to render as a white, but still opaque menubar).

I may try some tinkering on there after I get a replacement logic board for it (the current board’s memory controller is overheating and failing), because I’m now curious!

 

[bunnspecial]

I find this intriguing. One of the visible indicators of Core Image and Quartz Extreme hardware support in Leopard, as I’ve long understood it, is the menubar, in a default fresh installation of Leopard, displays as transparent. Ever since installing Leopard on my G5 (which has the OEM GeForce FX 5200 AGP card), that feature has never appeared (the default was a greyish opaque menubar, which I have since made “transparent” via a launchctl configuration to render as a white, but still opaque menubar).

I may try some tinkering on there after I get a replacement logic board for it (the current board’s memory controller is overheating and failing), because I’m now curious!

The 5200 IS a weak enough CI card that transparency and some other stuff gets turned off.

None the less, CI is an instruction set and the 5200 supports that instruction set. There are better GPUs than the 5200 that do not support CI.

Fundamentally, it's no different from Leopard not running on a G3 or Sierra not running on CPUs without SSE 4.1. I have G3s that are "faster" CPUs than what's in a Sawtooth(which can run Leopard as long as you bypass the installer) including the ones Apple put in the late iBook G3s and the 1ghz G3 I have in one of my B&Ws. They run non-Altivec tasks faster than a Sawtooth ever will, but do not run retail release builds of Leopard.

EDIT:

Here's my 12" PowerBook, which I had handy. Notice under CI it says "Hardware Accelerated", which means "Supported". A non-CI GPU will say "Software" in System Profiler.

 

[B S Magnet]

The 5200 IS a weak enough CI card that transparency and some other stuff gets turned off.

None the less, CI is an instruction set and the 5200 supports that instruction set. There are better GPUs than the 5200 that do not support CI.

Thank you for providing this breakdown of explanation. I didn’t know this before and this is quite helpful, especially as it relates to the Clouded Leopard project.

Fundamentally, it's no different from Leopard not running on a G3 or Sierra not running on CPUs without SSE 4.1. I have G3s that are "faster" CPUs than what's in a Sawtooth(which can run Leopard as long as you bypass the installer) including the ones Apple put in the late iBook G3s and the 1ghz G3 I have in one of my B&Ws. They run non-Altivec tasks faster than a Sawtooth ever will, but do not run retail release builds of Leopard.

EDIT:

Here's my 12" PowerBook, which I had handy. Notice under CI it says "Hardware Accelerated", which means "Supported". A non-CI GPU will say "Software" in System Profiler.

View attachment 1803817

Off-topic: I’m noticing you’re dealing with the failing LCD the way I am with my A1139 PowerBook, except that the failing line (which sometimes is there and sometimes not) is perfectly along the “equator” of the display.

 

[bunnspecial]

Thank you for providing this breakdown of explanation. I didn’t know this before and this is quite helpful, especially as it relates to the Clouded Leopard project.



Off-topic: I’m noticing you’re dealing with the failing LCD the way I am with my A1139 PowerBook, except that the failing line (which sometimes is there and sometimes not) is perfectly along the “equator” of the display.

Yeah, the display was that way when I bought the computer, actually from a forum member here. It was before mSATA and other solid state options were widely available, and this guy was one of the first I know of to document putting an mSATA drive in a PowerBook. I've since done a bunch of conversions, and thanks to improving solutions like the cheap Chinese adapters that actually have a 2.5" FF(not just a bare-board conversion) the ones I've done have been "neater" than what this guy had to work with at the time. Also, this one benches at 88mb/s read/write whereas with the adapters I've generally used I can get 92-93mb/s.

Whatever the case, I've used this computer a decent bit in the past although my A1138 or A1139 generally came out when I would participate in the forum PPC challenges. It was out now because I needed something with Chemdraw on it to write an exam and this one was handy. Unfortunately, in the 7 years or so I've had this computer, things have changed a bit for the worse. I'd hoped to upload files I made on here directly to Blackboard, but Webkit fell over when it came time to actually upload files(the "upload" button wouldn't work) and it took the most current version of TFF 5 minutes to render a page that was missing a bunch of elements...

I'm afraid my days of doing this stuff on this computer may be over(not that I'm getting rid of it). I have a nice BlackBook with a newer version of Chemdraw of dubious origin that a graduate student I worked with installed on it(or actually installed it when someone else owned the computer, before I bought it), but didn't have that computer handy. The last time I tried, browsers in Snow Leopard got along decent with Blackboard. Ideally I'd like a new copy of Chemdraw, but Perkin-Elmer, who acquired CambridgeSoft, has moved to a subscription model(what's new?) and the annual subscription cost is about 1/10 of my current department's total annual budget.

My A1139(since sold, wish I could buy it back but the guy I sold it to is holding ) had a less than perfect screen too, but good luck finding a replacement screen for one.

On this 12", the line has been "stable" the entire time I got it. It doesn't jump around like an iffy cable would. I THINK that the guy who put the SSD in said it came when he maybe nicked the cable or had some other slip-up at one point with the computer apart. I have some parts 12" PBs, and I'm sure at least one has a good display, but they're enough of a pain to take apart that I haven't been motivated to swap a good display onto it.

As a side note, with my diversion on Chemdraw, it's worth mentioning that it's a program with a firm place in Mac history. The first version was demoed at Macworld in 1986, and word was that every organic chemist in the country ordered a Mac and caused a shortage of them for a few months. I don't actually think that's TOO much of an exaggeration. When I first started my Chemistry education(~20 years after that infamous Macworld Expo), nearly all Organic chemists used Macs, and I suspect that's a large part of the reason. It's shifted some in the time since, but Macs are still popular with organic chemists.

 

[B S Magnet]

Yeah, the display was that way when I bought the computer, actually from a forum member here.

Fortunately, the LG displays in all the 12-inch PowerBooks are relatively easy and cheap to come by. The identical model display was used throughout the run of 2001–2005 12" iBooks and doubtless many other PC laptops. They show up for sale as NOS often (and at least once I saw a glossy variant as NOS which I flirted with getting). The 12" A1106 I have (had) became a parts donor once as I realized I wouldn’t be able to fix the RAM slot bad solder issue, and that display is what landed in my key lime iBook.

My A1139(since sold, wish I could buy it back but the guy I sold it to is holding ) had a less than perfect screen too, but good luck finding a replacement screen for one.

My plan, when the time comes for a minor overhaul, is to replace both fans (they’re in that loud dying stage unless the bearings are lined up just right), source a fresher battery (aware of how little remains out there), and put in either a NOS or used CCFL LG display used in the 2006–08 MacBook Pros, as use the same 30-pin LVDS pin-outs. I have thought about sourcing the 2008 LED board (similar to what’s in the A1261 I’m using to type this) and putting in the hi-res 1920x1200 LED display from a dead A1261, but when overhaul time comes, I’ll see how much I have in my budget versus what’s available.

On this 12", the line has been "stable" the entire time I got it. It doesn't jump around like an iffy cable would. I THINK that the guy who put the SSD in said it came when he maybe nicked the cable or had some other slip-up at one point with the computer apart.

Yah I have been unable to determine definitively why it’s happening. Since posting that thread, it’s vanished for weeks, then returned for a month, and for the last few weeks, it’s gone once more. Then again, it’s been sitting on my desk and hasn’t been used as a portable

I have some parts 12" PBs, and I'm sure at least one has a good display, but they're enough of a pain to take apart that I haven't been motivated to swap a good display onto it.

Project time some day when it’s rainy or snowy outside and things are slow.

As a side note, with my diversion on Chemdraw, it's worth mentioning that it's a program with a firm place in Mac history. The first version was demoed at Macworld in 1986, and word was that every organic chemist in the country ordered a Mac and caused a shortage of them for a few months. I don't actually think that's TOO much of an exaggeration. When I first started my Chemistry education(~20 years after that infamous Macworld Expo), nearly all Organic chemists used Macs, and I suspect that's a large part of the reason. It's shifted some in the time since, but Macs are still popular with organic chemists.

This is really interesting. I had no idea. It’s doubly so because my father was a chemist (by schooling) and worked in a chemical plant, but he was all-PC, through and through (the first laptop I ever tried out was a passive-matrix monochrome 286 he checked out from his work to do work from home). Then again, he worked as a manager, not an applied chemist.

 

[Amethyst1]

The 5200 IS a weak enough CI card that transparency and some other stuff gets turned off.

Thanks again for the clearification. I apologise for my mistake regarding the 5200 and CI.
Do you know how much difference having a weak CI card like a 5200 makes (in e.g. Leopard) vs. having a no-CI card?

 

[pc297]

Thanks again for the clearification. I apologise for my mistake regarding the 5200 and CI.
Do you know how much difference having a weak CI card like a 5200 makes (in e.g. Leopard) vs. having a no-CI card?

I am wondering precisely the same! I will compare it to the Radeon 9200 on my B&W.

Also wondering if a fully supported CI card - e.g. the 6200 - makes a difference vs a partially supported one - e.g. the 5200. I might actually go ahead and find out by getting a 6200 and flashing it and let you know!

 

[pc297]

Thanks for your answers! I would have another question for you guys:

I have an OWC G4 ZIF rated at 550 MHz (xpc7410rx550pe) that I had been using in a Beige G3 at 533 MHz on the 66 Mhz bus (8x multiplier). It ran flawlessly (except perhaps that I couldn't update to 10.4.11 due to CPUDirector not being supported).

However, when migrating it to the B&W (firmware G4-unlocked), I first started at 550 MHz on the 100 MHz bus and although the system boots up, there are several graphical artefacts (missing text, corrupted images) both on Tiger and OS9, and the system invariably hangs within minutes after reaching the desktop. I first thought of the cache speed which I reduced from 1:2 to 1:3 but to no avail. I now run it at 500 MHz on the B&W with 100 MHz bus speed (5x) with the cache at 1:2 speed and it runs flawlessly.

I am cooling it with a socket 7 heatsink and fan and it does not seem to get hot.

My question is: I have previously read somewhere - but cannot find it again for the life of me - that original G4 chips (7400s and 7410s) are prone to glitches at high speed at low temperature on these machines and that this bug is known and documented and even has a name - the errata bug.

Does this ring any bells? I also recently elsewhere read that this is due to a glitch with the XPC107 controller and one of the reasons why Apple subsequently went for 744X/745X. Is this glitch frequency or multiplier-based?

Do you think that there is any possibility to run this chip at its intended speed (550 MHz)? I could also try changing the FSB to 120 MHz x4.5 to run it at 540 MHz or 133 MHz x4 to 533 MHz (the latter by clipping R811 off of the backside of the mobo), however I have read that the latter is quite unstable (https://www.applefritter.com/node/4289), even though it should be possible on the 7410 side as it supports 133 MHz FSB

I also read that in theory it could be addressed by increasing the core voltage, presumably by directly soldering the Vid jumpers to another configuration on the ZIF module itself (https://web.archive.org/web/2006031...ourmac.com/G4ZONE/G4YIKESOC/500MHz_yikes.html)

And supposedly there is an OF hack to get higher speeds, but I am not sure that this applies to the B&W/Yikes (https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/i-just-software-overclocked-my-g4-400-to-533mhz.25114/)

Finally, the chip itself is theoretically rated to 600 MHz at least on the lowendmac specs (https://lowendmac.com/ppc/g4zif.shtml)

Does anyone have experience in any of the above? If so which method would be more suitable to reach speeds above 500 MHz?

Many thanks for your help,

Cheers

So it turns out it simply was a matter of cache speed. For some reason the cache ratio keeps at 1:2.5 regardless of CPU speed on the B&W but not on the beige where defaulted to 200MHz cache speed even at 533MHz, however at 550 and 600MHz on the B&W this went up to 220MHz and up, I set it back to 200MHz (default cache speed at 500MHz) and voila, I have a stable B&W G4 happily running at 600MHz But shouldnt' this part be able to do 250MHz Cache speed? It clearly defaults to 200 MHz on both OS9 and OSX though, it's an OWC Mercury G4 ZIF 550MHz.

For some reason I do have to set it manually with L2CacheConfig once OSX is loaded (either Leopard or Tiger), even though L2CacheConfig is in StartupItems, I might just put it as a cron job when OSX loads if I can't get it to load automatically on startup. If I don't set it manually I get random errors or crashes, which disappear as soon as the cache is set to 200MHz

 

[pc297]

Hi all,

So for those of you who want USB AND USB mass storage working on the B&W with 10.5.8, you need to copy IOUSBFamily.kext AND IOUSBMassStorageClass.kext from WWDC2006 to /S/L/E and do the usual kext cache cleaning

WWDC2006 USB Kexts are attached

Cheers,