PowerPC Macs Are Useless...

[Dronecatcher]

I recently replied to someone on the Low End Mac Facebook page who when responding to someone's query about a G5 used for music production, declared the Powermac G5 as, "useless."

In part of my defense, I referenced this G5 review from Sound On Sound magazine, who were blown away by the G5 pushing 87 tracks of audio in Logic:

https://www.soundonsound.com/review...vv_3gl9iZWOoMQvl5vCJ_jghi7BHCdJBj4aQbTgjWdjQY

What astounded me more was reading a comparison between a G3 iBook and a G4 Powerbook for audio use.
Just look at the figures - 18 tracks of 24-bit/96kHz audio on an 800Mhz G3 iBook (52 when taken down to 16-bit.)

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/12-inch-powerbook-ibook

This figures just show how we are forced into a constant upgrade cycle and software development quickly fills in any gaps left by CPU headroom.

 

[keysofanxiety]

Great point. So much hardware is limited by the software. Even on modern machines, just compare Premiere Pro to FCPX with export times on a 13" MBA - in one test, PP takes over half an hour with 4K content whereas FCPX takes 5. It shows you what software optimisation can do.

Nothing to stop these old machines still being useful, just unfortunately modern audio hardware won't have the driver support. And of course, a more modern machine with much faster I/O is much better for the job. But to say the old machines are useless is fundamentally untrue.

Heck, Cher's Believe was mixed on an iMac G3 with less power than a modern pocket calculator. There's an old saying which I think stays true:

 

[Project Alice]

I find PPC macs very useful If nothing other than they can usually be had for very cheap, and make a good reliable basic computer for various tasks.

They are VERY limited by software. It agrivates me actually. Leopard; is a very modern OS even by todays standards. There is absoutly no reason why it, or even Tiger can't be useable. The reason is because apples software support sucks, and worse than ever. 10.11 is now dead in the water to them. Windows 7 came out in 2009. 2009. And is still supported by not only Microsoft, but by just about every other software developer out there. And it runs on everything! (So does 10, but for the purpose of OS age 7 was a better example). I've run 7 on as slow as a 600Mhz Pentium 3 ThinkPad with 256mb of ram. Aside from slow graphics from the Rage 128 it had, it was a solid basic use computer.
FireFox just dropped Windows XP support last year, a good 5 years after Microsoft did. FireFox didn't even support leopard past what, version 4?
Moral of my rant is; I can take a PC from 2001 and run the latest versions of all the web browsers or whatever else, with a 10 year old OS and be perfectly fine with it. Try to do the same on a Mac of equal age is tedious and a job for only enthusiasts. Why? because apple says the OS is too old. That's literally it.

 

[eyoungren]

I find PPC macs very useful If nothing other than they can usually be had for very cheap, and make a good reliable basic computer for various tasks.

They are VERY limited by software. It agrivates me actually. Leopard; is a very modern OS even by todays standards. There is absoutly no reason why it, or even Tiger can't be useable. The reason is because apples software support sucks, and worse than ever. 10.11 is now dead in the water to them. Windows 7 came out in 2009. 2009. And is still supported by not only Microsoft, but by just about every other software developer out there. And it runs on everything! (So does 10, but for the purpose of OS age 7 was a better example). I've run 7 on as slow as a 600Mhz Pentium 3 ThinkPad with 256mb of ram. Aside from slow graphics from the Rage 128 it had, it was a solid basic use computer.
FireFox just dropped Windows XP support last year, a good 5 years after Microsoft did. FireFox didn't even support leopard past what, version 4?
Moral of my rant is; I can take a PC from 2001 and run the latest versions of all the web browsers or whatever else, with a 10 year old OS and be perfectly fine with it. Try to do the same on a Mac of equal age is tedious and a job for only enthusiasts. Why because apple says the OS is too old. That's literally it.

Here's the difference…

Microsoft sells software. Apple sells hardware.

It's in Microsoft's best interest to support as many systems as they can for as long as they can. With multiple versions of Windows out there they still make money no matter which version is still selling.

For Apple, it's in their best interests to force you to upgrade because you then buy another piece of hardware. If they continued to support older versions of OS X then there is no incentive (rage inducing or otherwise) to buy new hardware. This is especially true now once they stopped charging for OS X (macOS).

 

[Project Alice]

Here's the difference…

Microsoft sells software. Apple sells hardware.

It's in Microsoft's best interest to support as many systems as they can for as long as they can. With multiple versions of Windows out there they still make money no matter which version is still selling.

For Apple, it's in their best interests to force you to upgrade because you then buy another piece of hardware. If they continued to support older versions of OS X then there is no incentive (rage inducing or otherwise) to buy new hardware.

True. But, apple also used to charge for Mac OS. And it wasn't particularly cheap. $120 if I remember correct? More people, including myself would be more inclined to buy a newer mac if I knew apple would support it longer. I believe that is one of the main reasons for the mass success of Windows everywhere. People know they can use it for 15 years. I can't convince my mom to buy a computer that has a max potential of only 5 years.

They drop hardware for no reason other than to force you to upgrade. There is no reason why High Sierra couldn't support 2008 Macs. It works 100% out of the box on all 2008s and higher with dosdudes patch. With the exception of certain wifi cards which had to have the drivers deliberately been removed from the OS. Same with El Cap on the 1,1 2,1 Mac Pros, the removal of intel X3100 drivers in Mountain Lion and up, or Leopard on sub 867Mhz G4s. Bad business practice in my opinion. At least for those of us who actually pay attention.

 

[timidpimpin]

No computer is useless. There will always be someone who can put any computer to good use, and that means that no computer is truly useless. It may be useless to some less enlightened people, but to people like most of us here it will be far from useless.

People with no emotional attachment to hardware tend to think like that. Also those who don't like to dig deeper into things.

 

[psychicist]

I have a few older Powermac G4 and G5 machines that are not useless but the fact of the matter is that they are mostly left behind when it comes to software support. Not only are Tiger and Leopard getting long in the tooth, also most Linux distributions have abandoned 32-bit PowerPC processors and only FreeBSD and OpenBSD still support the hardware with a modern operating system that is still seeing updates. Even Linux and FreeBSD on 64-bit PowerPC processors leave a lot to be desired.

Of course these operating systems may not be the best for content professionals, but those will probably have moved to Intel Macs or Windows/Linux PCs a long time ago. So here it is mostly a case of perfectly fine hardware being left behind by modern software development that doesn't take into account that there are people with less powerful hardware out there. Maybe there is some Haiku operating system out there to bring new life to old Powermacs.

 

[timidpimpin]

I have a few older Powermac G4 and G5 machines that are not useless but the fact of the matter is that they are mostly left behind when it comes to software support. Not only are Tiger and Leopard getting long in the tooth, also most Linux distributions have abandoned 32-bit PowerPC processors and only FreeBSD and OpenBSD still support the hardware with a modern operating system that is still seeing updates. Even Linux and FreeBSD on 64-bit PowerPC processors leave a lot to be desired.

Of course these operating systems may not be the best for content professionals, but those will probably have moved to Intel Macs or Windows/Linux PCs a long time ago. So here it is mostly a case of perfectly fine hardware being left behind by modern software development that doesn't take into account that there are people with less powerful hardware out there. Maybe there is some Haiku operating system out there to bring new life to old Powermacs.

I feel Gentoo is the best modern OS solution for 32bit PowerPC right now. The problem for most people though is that Gentoo is one of the least user-friendly Linux around.

It's the best solution because you have to compile virtually everything yourself. Once you're at that user level though it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[eyoungren]

True. But, apple also used to charge for Mac OS. And it wasn't particularly cheap. $120 if I remember correct? More people, including myself would be more inclined to buy a newer mac if I knew apple would support it longer. I believe that is one of the main reasons for the mass success of Windows everywhere. People know they can use it for 15 years. I can't convince my mom to buy a computer that has a max potential of only 5 years.

They drop hardware for no reason other than to force you to upgrade. There is no reason why High Sierra couldn't support 2008 Macs. It works 100% out of the box on all 2008s and higher with dosdudes patch. With the exception of certain wifi cards which had to have the drivers deliberately been removed from the OS. Same with El Cap on the 1,1 2,1 Mac Pros, the removal of intel X3100 drivers in Mountain Lion and up, or Leopard on sub 867Mhz G4s. Bad business practice in my opinion. At least for those of us who actually pay attention.

And when Apple was selling software, i.e. OS X, the OS tended to support older Macs right? Because Apple had Microsoft's incentive at that point. They knew people would hold on to their computers longer so the incentive to sell OS X was letting it work on older Macs. In 2005, when Tiger launched, you could install it on a G3.

True that even then Apple was not into supporting as much as Microsoft, but they did support older systems more then.

So, that's the reason for dropping hardware now. They flipped their business model. Apparently they thought there was more to make in continually forced hardware upgrades.

And you know what…Apple users bought it. We PowerPC users are a refuge here on MR from the anti-old Mac users in the Intel forums precisely because those Apple users bought the new business model Apple switched to.

Apple won't go back on it because it now makes them money. There's a whole generation of Apple users who will keep paying just because they believe this. It's a pretty damn good money making move.

 

[YaBe]

PPC can be "useless" for internet stuff, but they are definitely useful for many stuff.

As for myself there’s nothing my old g5 cannot do with photoshop / illustrator that you can do on modern hw, yes it might need a step or 2 more, but the result is the same, and it is a pleasure to work on that machine!

 

[Southern Dad]

I have way too many PowerPC Macs that are doing pretty much nothing but collecting dust. A few have been used as digital picture frames but in truth, I no longer have a good use for them and have way too many of them.

 

[redheeler]

Here's the difference…

Microsoft sells software. Apple sells hardware.

It's in Microsoft's best interest to support as many systems as they can for as long as they can. With multiple versions of Windows out there they still make money no matter which version is still selling.

For Apple, it's in their best interests to force you to upgrade because you then buy another piece of hardware. If they continued to support older versions of OS X then there is no incentive (rage inducing or otherwise) to buy new hardware. This is especially true now once they stopped charging for OS X (macOS).

I'm surprised by how many people elsewhere on this forum defend Apple's decisions to drop software support for older hardware, as happened again recently with Mojave's Metal requirement.

Forcing upgrades using software isn't a necessary part of their business model. In fact, they're taking the opposite approach with iOS devices receiving support for much longer than Android devices.

But Apple's treatment of older Mac hardware is nothing less than a shame. They even uploaded a promo showing someone being productive on 2011 (thick) iMac last month, but took it down after I pointed out it was a 2011.

 

[AL1630]

I'm surprised by how many people elsewhere on this forum defend Apple's decisions to drop software support for older hardware, as happened again recently with Mojave's Metal requirement.

Forcing upgrades using software isn't a necessary part of their business model. In fact, they're taking the opposite approach with iOS devices receiving support for much longer than Android devices.

But Apple's treatment of older Mac hardware is nothing less than a shame. They even uploaded a promo showing someone being productive on 2011 (thick) iMac last month, but took it down after I pointed out it was a 2011.

Yeah, many people on the Intel side of the forums treat any mac that isn't officially supported as a throwaway item. What a waste. I have 0 officially supported Apple devices, and all of them work just fine. Apple is REALLY good at convincing people of things, though.

 

[eyoungren]

I'm surprised by how many people elsewhere on this forum defend Apple's decisions to drop software support for older hardware, as happened again recently with Mojave's Metal requirement.

Forcing upgrades using software isn't a necessary part of their business model. In fact, they're taking the opposite approach with iOS devices receiving support for much longer than Android devices.

But Apple's treatment of older Mac hardware is nothing less than a shame. They even uploaded a promo showing someone being productive on 2011 (thick) iMac last month, but took it down after I pointed out it was a 2011.

It doesn't surprise me at this point.

Apple started with the Mac. They make money when they sell Macs. No surprise then that they want to keep selling you Macs so they adjust software minreqs to profit from that.

iOS and the iDevice is entirely different. People who would never own a Mac own an iPhone or an iPad. It's an entirely different product requiring a different approach. Notice though how Apple gives you incentive to use an iDevice with a Mac.

People are holding on to their phones longer because the market is saturated and these devices generally all do the same thing. The Mac/PC market however is still in flux enough that Apple can get away with forcing hardware upgrades because software is still the driver here. iOS and Android do pretty much the same thing, just differently.

You are right that forcing upgrades isn't necessary. But profit margins are. That's one reason Apple took a stab at seeing if people would pay more for iDevices. So far it seems it hasn't worked out as well as they hoped.

All of us here do not generally drink the Koolaid that drives these other Apple users. If we did, we wouldn't be in this sub-forum. That particular Koolaid is strong and it drives loyalty to the exclusion of common sense.

 

[1042686]

My main DAW (music production rig) is a PMG5 DC2ghz. That era gear/software is cheap nowadays & still very, very good. Unless for work reasons where you’re forced into a new ecosystem, it makes little sense to invest into new gear for Audio recording&production IMO when DC & QC PMG5s are floating around (heck even 1st & 2nd gen Intel macs) for pennies. As always YMMV.

 

[eyoungren]

My main music production rig is a PMG5 DC2ghz. That era gear/software is cheap nowadays & still very, very good. Unless for work reasons where you’re forced into a new ecosystem, it makes little sense to invest into new gear for Audio recording&production IMO when DC & QC PMG5s are floating around (heck even 1st & 2nd gen Intel macs) for pennies. As always YMMV.

It's the same with design.

I can produce the same work at home using Adobe CS4 on a 2.5Ghz Quad with 16GB ram as I can on a work Mac or PC with the latest. The PDFs I send out are no different.

 

[jagolden]

I once was doing a multiple food package design project on an old PM 9500.
I was working strictly in Photoshop and each label had 60 to 65 layers.
It moved right along. The only issue was remembering which layer was which as I was too lazy to name them all.
Patience, grasshopper.

 

[Project Alice]

I'm surprised by how many people elsewhere on this forum defend Apple's decisions to drop software support for older hardware, as happened again recently with Mojave's Metal requirement.

Forcing upgrades using software isn't a necessary part of their business model. In fact, they're taking the opposite approach with iOS devices receiving support for much longer than Android devices.

But Apple's treatment of older Mac hardware is nothing less than a shame. They even uploaded a promo showing someone being productive on 2011 (thick) iMac last month, but took it down after I pointed out it was a 2011.

Oh yeah. That is a big one for me. I constantly see it on FB with some LEM users, and the "MacProUpgrade" group. I've been almost shunned by posting about my 2008 3,1 Mac Pro there. I also own 0 "officially supported" macs. They all work perfect, especially that 3,1. It's my main machine. I also use a 2009 MacBook quite a lot. I honestly like intel macs just as well as most the PPC ones. I like the older gen intels better because they seem to be more reliable thus far than the new ones. Most of which is unproven technology anyways. I like PPC's for their character, but I also buy up every cheap "throw away" intel macs as well whenever I get the opportunity.

This is my most browsed sub-forum on here for the exact reasons you guys have said. Those types of people that buy into that business model, I find are not too intelligent. I feel that the quality control decline has gone down as well because they've realized the people dumb enough to buy into said business model are also dumb enough to keep paying for repairs or machine replacements, after their super extended apple care runs out. I'm talking to you 2011 MacBook Pro users. I believe the trash can MP had a few video card melt downs as well. I've seen way too many expanded batteries destroying new intel macs as well. I know batteries do that sometimes, but not that much. I'm now typing this on a PowerBook G4, on battery. Every other portable I have that has a dead battery, it at least isn't expanding at all.

The 2012 MacBook Pro and Mac Pro are probably the newest macs that will actually last as long as PPC's do.
I wouldn't be surprised PPC macs out-live every mac made in the last 5 years, even if they can't do anything productive anymore.

 

[jagolden]

Yeah on supporting older machines. My iMac Ann MBP are too old to update to Mohave.
Even the last update they could take has slowed down so much of the important software it’s almost painful to use.
Still hope to get to 2020 with them, though.
Some apps take forever to start up. The Affinity apps run fine once they’re going, thank god.

 

[1042686]

Yeah on supporting older machines. My iMac Ann MBP are too old to update to Mohave.
Even the last update they could take has slowed down so much of the important software it’s almost painful to use.
Still hope to get to 2020 with them, though.
Some apps take forever to start up. The Affinity apps run fine once they’re going, thank god.

If you haven't done it, maxing ram & swapping cloned SSD's are easy speed boosting upgrades for both units. I have a white intel imac 10.6 and 08 aluminum macbook 10.11.6 that both got maxed ram & SSDs and are still completely usable today speed wise. They're not speed demons but they are definitely not slouches. I used that imac as a home studio DAW for years until the GPU conked out and by the time I got around to swapping the GPU, I had a PMG5 that had replaced said DAW duties. Im posting this from the 08 macbook. They work great with these upgrades.

 

[laylow]

I find them entirely useless for web browsing, but other than that, they are awesome. You can edit audio, make an album, edit photos, do science, all kinds of awesome stuff.

 

[eyoungren]

I find them entirely useless for web browsing…

I'm fine with them for web browsing.

However, I'm using TenFourFox. T4Fx is a current, up to date, web browser that is a fork of Firefox designed specifically for PowerPC Macs. Additionally, I've optimized it with addons and tweaks to about:config.

This makes it very usable on a 1.0Ghz PowerBook G4 with 2GB ram. On a 2.5Ghz Quad G5 with 16GB ram it's right up there with Firefox on a late model Intel Mac. I'll just add that my tweaking has the app and the profile both residing on a virtual ram disk. Therefore, the app itself and anything cached is instant because it's right in RAM. The only bottle neck is the speed of the internet and that's been mitigated by my tweaking.

But if TenFourFox is not your thing, there's Leopard Webkit. Safari with modern updates.

Not useless at all on my Macs.

 

[Traace]

I'm fine with them for web browsing.

However, I'm using TenFourFox. T4Fx is a current, up to date, web browser that is a fork of Firefox designed specifically for PowerPC Macs. Additionally, I've optimized it with addons and tweaks to about:config.

This makes it very usable on a 1.0Ghz PowerBook G4 with 2GB ram. On a 2.5Ghz Quad G5 with 16GB ram it's right up there with Firefox on a late model Intel Mac. I'll just add that my tweaking has the app and the profile both residing on a virtual ram disk. Therefore, the app itself and anything cached is instant because it's right in RAM. The only bottle neck is the speed of the internet and that's been mitigated by my tweaking.

But if TenFourFox is not your thing, there's Leopard Webkit. Safari with modern updates.

Not useless at all on my Macs.

TenFourFox can sync with intel firefox builds too. Its just awesome. I've running a dedicated firefox-sync server here

 

[mmphosis]

I find the wierd version of the minix operating system that takes up core space on ALL post-2008 Intel chips to be useless. I have yet to see any new PC or Mac hardware worth purchasing. If I had unlimited funds maybe this: https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/

 

[timidpimpin]

A trend I have noticed over the years... people who use older computers tend to be more computer savvy than the average consumer. People who use older systems are on their own to figure things out in most cases, because there is little or no modern software support for the hardware.