Privacy Concerns Loom as Congress Moves to Allow Internet Providers to Share Users' Sensitive Data

I'm still not sure what the end game is for these companies. What is the plan once they get access to all of our data (online/retail purchase history, financial, health data etc.) and can aggregate it all together? It feels like there is more to this than just improving targeted ads.

I dunno but it would be a gas if Ma Nature laid waste to their server farm some afternoon with a meteor or a tornado. And boy do they live in a special bubble... suggesting we can just switch ISPs. Most of the little ones have been acquired and in rural areas you're extremely lucky if there are two from which to choose.
 
Lots of ground to cover here, I'll pick a few and give my thoughts.

Why do people vote the way they do. I can speak for myself. My general philosophy on government is that is has some very important core responsibilities and then it should stay out of most other things as much as possible. In that sense I'm probably more libertarian than either of the two major parties but I don't really fit them either due to their extreme aversion to any government involvement and isolationist policies. More often than not I find myself in synch with republican policies on limited government but when it comes to social issues I am more closely aligned with the democrats. As a result I tend to vote for moderate republicans. If the evangelical wing left that party I'd probably be pretty strongly aligned with the republican party. That said, I evaluate each candidate individually, I don't chose based upon the letter following their name. I don't like a lot of what Trump stands for so I didn't vote for him. I didn't like Clinton either, I didn't vote for her. Each party has a base that will vote for their candidates with very little regard for who they run but a larger block than either of those consider themselves moderates or independent and could vote for either party depending upon how their messages resonate. I'm happy to be in that block of wishy washy swing voters :)

As to economic status and party affiliation. I'm sure a lot of people would consider me "rich" although I don't. I am definitely very comfortable but I don't have a private jet or mega yacht, I have a budget albeit one that allows me a lot of luxuries. By that measure people would consider my vote stereotypical. Take a look at the Billionaire crowd though, you have a few notable conservatives (the Kochs, Thiel, Adelson) but there are a lot of liberals in that set (Soros, Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg, Brin, Bloomberg, Spielberg, Ballmar, Beniof, Steyer); republicans don't have a monopoly on "the rich," particularly those who have already established their wealth. On the flip side, we have a lot of economic mobility in this country and many people realize that. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, I've built what I have, and I didn't change my core beliefs as my tax bracket moved. I think there's a notable set of people who currently make a modest living but aspire to have more, in that mindset a "soak the rich" perspective is short sighted. Finally, a lot of blue collar America has hobbies that democrats seem to increasingly oppose: shooting, hunting, fishing, hotrods, motorcycles, 4x4s, snowmobiles; right or wrong much of the country feels that these pastimes are under assault from the left. Being able to continue a hobby you love may be more important than the top tax rate or limits on corporate inversion. The votes reflect that.

Lastly, you mentioned damage to the environment. My personal viewpoint is that we have reasonable restrictions on behavior today that protect our environment and most new legislation in this arena provides small incremental gain at great cost. Our skies and waters are beautiful in this country and I want to keep it so. I don't think though that we need to forever drive tolerances for various potentially harmful compounds lower and lower. It's not the toxin, it's the dose. Whether arsenic is allowed at 112 or 64 parts per million in a stream (those may not be the correct figures, I'm going from memory) doesn't bother me, I'll drink it at either; but the cost of driving down to 64 could be very burdensome. Classifying some home owner's lot as a wetland and not allowing them to put in a fence when 95% of history has that area devoid of visible water is just an invasion of personal property rights. You didn't state this but I find the people who think we'll destroy earth to be arrogant. There have been multiple global scale catastrophic events on this planet through its history and the planet - and life - go on. We can make life difficult for ourselves or less pleasant but I don't fear even that with the reasonable regulation we already have in place. To me, environmentalism is a new religion and driven more by emotion and faith than facts.

My opinion, I hope that provides some insight.

Thanks for the response but your enjoyment of life and luxuries are relevant only because your tax bracket may make it advantageous for you to align with a Republican point of view. I too enjoy a comfortable lifestyle (if that even matters) I have everything I want or need, but that has little influence over my beliefs or party affiliation or for my concern over privacy which this coversation was originally about.

Not to get too far off topic but I care more for the well being of my fellow American and the environment than I do about my social and economic standing.

As a Democrat I too enjoy guns and recreational shooting. Obama or any democrat for that matter has in no way limited my enjoyment of shooting, hunting, or prevented me from supporting the NRA. These stereotypes are used to catagorize people only to instigate an argument just for the sake of arguing. The other side is wrong therefore I will contest them.

These stereotypes are typical but still do not address my original question.

As far as arrogance towards the enviorment, I care about the quality of our air, the sustainability of endangered species, and the deregulation of our public lands. These are things that need protection from a small or big government in order to survive in a way where we can still enjoy them. Unfortunately under a corporate friendly environment the landscape will change over the pursuit of money and power and that is a tragedy for all of us.

I'm done here. No need to respond. I recently read we are becoming more polarized as a country. Apparently trying to reason with someone who has already formed an opinion is a waste of time. They will defend their point of view even when presented with facts to the contrary. I would prefer to spend my time with an 18 year old scotch. Best of luck to you.
 
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I'm in perfect health.

Now you are. But someday you'll be looking up Viagra and adult diapers or even colostomy bags. Do you really want everyone knowing that?

Hillary was a MUCH worse option regarding our individual rights and freedoms

On what basis exactly do you make that strange assertion? Are you one of those people that think "they're coming for our guns!"?
[doublepost=1490945509][/doublepost]
I'm still not sure what the end game is for these companies. What is the plan once they get access to all of our data (online/retail purchase history, financial, health data etc.) and can aggregate it all together? It feels like there is more to this than just improving targeted ads.
Real time tracking of you like a wild animal. Don't think that government won't be involved too.
 
Thanks for the response but your enjoyment of life and luxuries are relevant only because your tax bracket may make it advantageous for you to align with a Republican point of view. I too enjoy a comfortable lifestyle (if that even matters) I have everything I want or need, but that has little influence over my beliefs or party affiliation or for my concern over privacy which this coversation was originally about.

Not to get too far off topic but I care more for the well being of my fellow American and the environment than I do about my social and economic standing.

As a Democrat I too enjoy guns and recreational shooting. Obama or any democrat for that matter has in no way limited my enjoyment of shooting, hunting, or prevented me from supporting the NRA. These stereotypes are used to catagorize people only to instigate an argument just for the sake of arguing. The other side is wrong therefore I will contest them.

These stereotypes are typical but still do not address my original question.

As far as arrogance towards the enviorment, I care about the quality of our air, the sustainability of endangered species, and the deregulation of our public lands. These are things that need protection from a small or big government in order to survive in a way where we can still enjoy them. Unfortunately under a corporate friendly environment the landscape will change over the pursuit of money and power and that is a tragedy for all of us.

I'm done here. No need to respond. I recently read we are becoming more polarized as a country. Apparently trying to reason with someone who has already formed an opinion is a waste of time. They will defend their point of view even when presented with facts to the contrary. I would prefer to spend my time with an 18 year old scotch. Best of luck to you.

Ironic but OK. I wish you the best :)
 
Now you are. But someday you'll be looking up Viagra and adult diapers or even colostomy bags. Do you really want everyone knowing that?



On what basis exactly do you make that strange assertion? Are you one of those people that think "they're coming for our guns!"?
[doublepost=1490945509][/doublepost]
Real time tracking of you like a wild animal. Don't think that government won't be involved too.
What will be will be. I also won't be ordering Viagra. When my might 'member' decides to no longer function properly I will be fine. My life is very fulfilling outside the bedchamber as well as inside. Time and gravity catch up with all of us and I do not see the need to detour the natural path of my life with vasodialators (I'm sure I spelled that incorrectly).
 
I'm still not sure what the end game is for these companies. What is the plan once they get access to all of our data (online/retail purchase history, financial, health data etc.) and can aggregate it all together? It feels like there is more to this than just improving targeted ads.

Real time tracking of you like a wild animal. Don't think that government won't be involved too.

LOL they already are, and we may already have had companies saying "we would never give your info to the government without a warrant..."

... and then saying to the government or to marketers "...but for a price, what do you want to know?"

The new rule was supposed to prevent that from continuing if it had already begun. But hey, now thanks to Trump and the GOP, it's just back to the usual escalation of third party privileges at the expense of the hapless ordinary citizen/consumer.

Even without bought privileges some people manage to do a lot of scouting. This is an interesting read:

 
What will be will be. I also won't be ordering Viagra. When my might 'member' decides to no longer function properly I will be fine. My life is very fulfilling outside the bedchamber as well as inside. Time and gravity catch up with all of us and I do not see the need to detour the natural path of my life with vasodialators (I'm sure I spelled that incorrectly).
Well, it's easy to say that when you aren't there yet and it maybe seems far off!

On another note, interesting profile pic change...a prediction? :D
 
Well, it's easy to say that when you aren't there yet and it maybe seems far off!

On another note, interesting profile pic change...a prediction? :D

I won't claim credit for his avatar change but I did remark that he was starting to sound like his idol (and previous avatar) Vladimir during an exchange in the thread about Mike Pence breaking the tie in the vote to defund Planned Parenthood. Anyway I didn't happen to respond to his suggestion to pick his next avatar so all by himself he came up with Mikey. File under "not really my fault" lol.

On the thread topic: there is now a petition up asking the Prez to veto the bill.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...ur-online-data-please-keep-fccs-privacy-rules

The FCC's privacy and consumer data security rule require broadband or wireless Internet Service Providers (ISPs) safeguard Americans’ privacy when they go online. The rule requires that your ISP:


* Must ask your permission to collect and sell sensitive personal data collected over the network – including browsing history, email content, and app usage – to advertisers and other third parties, possibly the government;
* Take “reasonable measures” to secure your personal information; and
* Notify customers when their data is stolen.


S.J. Res 34 blocks this rule and prevents any new FCC rules. Other laws block the FTC from enacting any rules on ISPs. Consumers would have no privacy rules. We want better privacy protections like the FCC rules, not more loopholes.


-Rep. Doyle & Rep. Capuano



Meanwhile the White House already put out a press release on the matter:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...ration-policy-sjres-34-–-disapproving-federal

The Administration strongly supports House passage of S.J.Res. 34, which would nullify the Federal Communications Commission’s final rule titled "Protecting the Privacy of Customers of Broadband and Other Telecommunication Services," 81 Fed. Reg. 87274 (December 2, 2016). The rule applies the privacy requirements of the Communications Act of 1934 to broadband Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and other telecommunications carriers. In particular, the rule requires ISPs to obtain affirmative "opt-in" consent from consumers to use and share certain information, including app usage and web browsing history. It also allows ISPs to use and share other information, including e-mail addresses and service tier information, unless a customer "opts-out." In doing so, the rule departs from the technology-neutral framework for online privacy administered by the Federal Trade Commission. This results in rules that apply very different regulatory regimes based on the identity of the online actor.


If S.J.Res. 34 were presented to the President, his advisors would recommend that he sign the bill into law.
 
Now you are. But someday you'll be looking up Viagra and adult diapers or even colostomy bags. Do you really want everyone knowing that?



On what basis exactly do you make that strange assertion? Are you one of those people that think "they're coming for our guns!"?
[doublepost=1490945509][/doublepost]
Real time tracking of you like a wild animal. Don't think that government won't be involved too.

Seriously? Hillary was the epitome of an ivory tower "elite" who preaches tolerance while not practicing it. She wanted to limit freedom and liberty when it was not convenient, eroding our rights as Americans in the process. Do you really think she was for freedom? She was against religious liberty and yes, against the individual right to own firearms to protect against government tyranny (prove it to me otherwise). Her big government mantra meant that America would be sacrificing the rights of the individual to make liberals "feel" better in their safe space. The reality is that this does nothing to protect us and instead is used as a sham for those like Hillary to grasp more power.

In the words of one of our great Founding Fathers:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin


As an aside, I certainly do not agree with every policy of the Right (net neutrality, internet privacy and abortion) just to name a few. Although I feel abortion is wrong, I do not think the government should tell an individual how to live their life. Selling those fetal parts - well that is a different story.
 
Public service announcement: Here are opt-out links for Comcast and AT&T (the latter also works for AT&T Wireless customers):

http://my.xfinity.com/adinformation/
https://about.att.com/sites/privacy_policy/terms#controls

I was not able to find them from the respective account pages (which is no doubt intentional).

Also, interesting article on Politico:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/broadband-data-victory-republicans-236760

According to this, it was not just the ISPs who lobbied for this:

"They also got a surprising assist from groups representing big tech firms like Google and Facebook, which feared that similar regulations could someday curtail their own ability to harvest their users' data."
 
She was against religious liberty and yes, against the individual right to own firearms to protect against government tyranny (prove it to me otherwise).

No...you are the one making the claim that she is coming for guns and against a whole host of things, so you provide the proof.

It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that she would have come for your guns. How would that have even worked? It's not practical at all. This fear and hysteria over gun taking needs to stop because it isn't real. Obama never was going to take all your guns and neither was Hillary. A myth spread by the NRA to sell guns and repeated by right wingers.
 
Why is the GOP consistently on the wrong side of every issue?
Years of practice
[doublepost=1491082331][/doublepost]
Public service announcement: Here are opt-out links for Comcast and AT&T (the latter also works for AT&T Wireless customers):

http://my.xfinity.com/adinformation/
https://about.att.com/sites/privacy_policy/terms#controls

I was not able to find them from the respective account pages (which is no doubt intentional).

Also, interesting article on Politico:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/broadband-data-victory-republicans-236760

According to this, it was not just the ISPs who lobbied for this:

"They also got a surprising assist from groups representing big tech firms like Google and Facebook, which feared that similar regulations could someday curtail their own ability to harvest their users' data."
Surprise!
[doublepost=1491083614][/doublepost]
Seriously? Hillary was the epitome of an ivory tower "elite" who preaches tolerance while not practicing it. She wanted to limit freedom and liberty when it was not convenient, eroding our rights as Americans in the process. Do you really think she was for freedom? She was against religious liberty and yes, against the individual right to own firearms to protect against government tyranny (prove it to me otherwise). Her big government mantra meant that America would be sacrificing the rights of the individual to make liberals "feel" better in their safe space. The reality is that this does nothing to protect us and instead is used as a sham for those like Hillary to grasp more power.

In the words of one of our great Founding Fathers:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin


As an aside, I certainly do not agree with every policy of the Right (net neutrality, internet privacy and abortion) just to name a few. Although I feel abortion is wrong, I do not think the government should tell an individual how to live their life. Selling those fetal parts - well that is a different story.
Let me know how the "Liberals" are still screwing you next year as well. It's particularly hilarious for me as the alt Right in my country are actually called the Liberal Party. There're still blaming the other side for stuff from the early '70s, even though they've been in power for 2/3rds of the time and allowed the sale of most industry, prime real estate and farmland, critical infrastructure and resources to foreign entities. They're now also decreasing wages, working conditions and rights of the ignorant, petty, self righteous, vindictive, aggressively ignorant morons that voted for them, so that's justice I suppose.
 
I'd love to know more details - this surely goes way beyond privacy concerns and into individual/corporate security. There must be times where your network history - if it includes the URIs of all requests - will divulge information that could be used to infer / phish / social-engineer other confidential data.

And the next time there's a big data breach, we'll all be scratching our heads and wondering how it could have happened..

I'm obviously non-American, but it seems to me it's a constant Republican trait: have an absolute hatred of any preventative, pre-emptive measures; but be the first to point the finger when the poop hits the fan.

I'm still not sure what the end game is for these companies. What is the plan once they get access to all of our data (online/retail purchase history, financial, health data etc.) and can aggregate it all together? It feels like there is more to this than just improving targeted ads.
Chiming in pretty late here and for the first time in this Forum, and cherry-picking your two comments because they both struck me as important and relevant to the point my posting here (plus having family and friends in County Cork).

IMHO, there was and is a person and two companies working quietly and purposefully in the background. I'd read about the person's work back in the late 80s when I started on my engineering and technical writing degrees, and I also minored in environmental engineering (with a focus on analytical statistics) and marketing to flesh out one of my engineering programs - the basis of his work fascinated me at the time but moved to transit-related work. Then, a few months ago, his name started popping up again in relation to Brexit, the Trump campaign, and this selling of ISP data bit - Robert Mercer. I analyze data and report on what I find, I'm disgusted by those who analyze data and seek to capitalize on it for selfish reasons - Mercer is a sell-out. You may opt to take me to task on my perspective here but, before taking umbrage with this please take note that Mercer's companies are advertising that they (Cambridge Analytica) have profiles built on the 220M voters in the US… - we've already been profiled, and IMHO they're looking to narrow down their focus on what they've already paid for.

Mercer worked for IBM back in the 80s, and eventually started his own business in financial analysis (hedge funds and the like) and made plenty of cash. Eventually, he was Trump's biggest financial contributor along with his daughter Rebekah, a shareholder in Breitbart, and an owner of Cambridge Analytica (which also contributed to Trump's campaign) - they were behind Cruz until Cruz flamed out.

I'm generally not affiliated with a party. I believe politicians are similar to professors - that's the job they choose because they can't get a real job, and all they can do is talk and manipulate people for a living. And, they're lazy, do-nothing, manipulated and manipulative, self-important blowhards well-versed in feeding people bullcrap - fed data by companies run by people like Mercer.

Relevant to "big data collection", I'm offering a couple of recently-written op-ed pieces by the affiliated publications The Washington Post and The Guardian that offer their perspective on Mercer, Cambridge Analytica, and that company's parent - the British SCL Group (which just opened a brand new office just down Pennsylvania Ave from The White House). @whooleytoo, read up on how Mercer's companies may have affected Brexit in The Guardian's piece - it may not be an Irish story, but it has affected your neighbors and is still under investigation. You'll need a bit of time to invest - they're not short reads…

After working for Trump’s campaign, British data firm eyes new U.S. government contracts
Robert Mercer: the big data billionaire waging war on mainstream media

That pig Trump ran on the "drain the swamp" campaign promise. My preferred campaign promise would be "Flush The Toilet". I'm looking forward to the day Trump and his cronies drown - metaphorically, of course :rolleyes: - in sewer effluent.

I'm investing in a Synology RT2600ac - the built-in VPN and domain blocking really appeal to me, now more than ever.
 
I have a VPN service running on all the devices I own that support it (phone, tablet, desktop, laptop, even redundantly in VMs) but now I'm also considering getting a WRT-54 and modding it for whole network VPN. At this point I want complete isolation of all IoT devices as well. I suppose at some point I'll reach VPN inception as my VMs are VPN'ed within a VPN'ed desktop accessing across a VPN'ed router. :p

This whole thing is ridiculous though, the role of an infrastructure company such as ISP is completely different from a services company such as Google. They don't need to be "competitive" with one another as they are (and should remain) completely separate industries. I can choose (and do) not to do business with Google due to their approach to users and data as a commodity, I can't choose not to connect to the internet (not reasonably in this day and age). This forces us into backward approaches such as my heavy use of VPN which then affects the bandwidth I've subscribed for etc...
[doublepost=1490800440][/doublepost]

And you're not a criminal so we don't need things like forth and fifth amendment protections. If the police department wants to wander into your home and take a look around that should be fine. This is an incredibly selfish approach to policy decisions.
How long before VPNs are illegal and armed tactical response breaks down your door/house because you've been detected avoiding detection?
 
Yeah and go to all this trouble just because I don't think it's anyone's business if I trade gossip with my sister about one of our brothers? I dunno. Why should I have to shell out for a VPN. Let the ISPs do the right thing and take my monthly service fee for providing me net access and otherwise mind their own biz.

I resent marketers buying my info off my ISP if it happens already, but seriously the way I want to deal with it is keep hammering on them to cut it out and keep hammering on the government to make them cut it out. The government is us, right? We can't be so lazy and just roll eyes and frown or curse when a law is passed that we don't like. We have to go back to Congres and say ya did wrong, do it over.

Who likes this setup besides the ISPs and the potential buyers? That wretched AHCA bill had a 17% popularity rating but I bet the rollback of this opt-in rule rates lower than that.

Sign the petition to the Prez to veto the damn thing.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pe...ur-online-data-please-keep-fccs-privacy-rules

Probably won't work but then we can go try to unelect the 215 Republicans who voted for it in the House. I don't even know the vote in the Senate but it passed along party line also afaik. Shame on Trump if he doesn't veto this stupid bill. But I think he's not going there...

That petition needs some circulation on FB or Twitter etc. to give it a boost. Meanwhile the ISPs are saying oh we're not going to sell your data, don't worry. Right. LOL. It's April Fools Day. Sign the petition.
 
We're all doomed...

VPN's will help, but t doesn't matter where they get it frm and who they get it from by a court order (VPN providers or anyone in between), the data is out of "your own hands" anyway. The only way to never put it there in the first place..

And that's tough to do even in "Private, safe browsing"

Although it's encrypted, ISP's can't see traffic over VPN, but you VPN provider can.... Who who's what they must pass on eventually, when it becomes law in the country home of the VPN provider. (servers doesn't matter, as its only the VPN provider that matters.. who cares where they have servers located in.)

As long as u can compel a VPN provider u control their servers. and info is long gone. If u can't link it back to you, gives people some confidence, as "privacy sets in" and we all use that thinking it IS privacy, but it really ain't... The ip does not even matter when the info is already there..
The governments don't need to track it back to you,, they can get that the other info anywhere they like.

Its not only governments. but (yes.. ok u'r breaking allot of privacy policies now, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

Welcome to the 21st centenary...:)

What info passes through a connection, may be stored on a server, doesn't matter if its only temporary, since that's what they tell u to make u feel better.

It's common sense, as the only measure.
 
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Years of practice
[doublepost=1491082331][/doublepost]
Surprise!
[doublepost=1491083614][/doublepost]
Let me know how the "Liberals" are still screwing you next year as well. It's particularly hilarious for me as the alt Right in my country are actually called the Liberal Party. There're still blaming the other side for stuff from the early '70s, even though they've been in power for 2/3rds of the time and allowed the sale of most industry, prime real estate and farmland, critical infrastructure and resources to foreign entities. They're now also decreasing wages, working conditions and rights of the ignorant, petty, self righteous, vindictive, aggressively ignorant morons that voted for them, so that's justice I suppose.

Care to reference the country you are speaking about?

I do find it funny how the Liberal name implies they are for liberty, which is most definitely not the case these days. Alt left should just be renamed to Socialist Party. They need to stop beating around the bush in what their message is.
[doublepost=1491232447][/doublepost]
No...you are the one making the claim that she is coming for guns and against a whole host of things, so you provide the proof.

It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that she would have come for your guns. How would that have even worked? It's not practical at all. This fear and hysteria over gun taking needs to stop because it isn't real. Obama never was going to take all your guns and neither was Hillary. A myth spread by the NRA to sell guns and repeated by right wingers.

By the way you speak about the issue, I can tell you know very little about firearms in general and have not spent much time around them. "Coming for your guns" is a very loose terminology and I am inferring that you think my concern would be a force going door to door and rounding up firearms. Yes, this would be very concerning, but I am also troubled by the attack on the second amendment by the left. Two remarks:

1. I urge you to research major populations that were disarmed, how it happened and what it led to. Then you will know what to look for when society begins restricting. In nearly every case it led to mass control of the population and does not end well.

2. I do not care about the second amendment for the sake of "clinging to guns and bible" as the left likes to say. I care about it in regards to the liberty recognized for the individual in this country. What makes you think once they are finished restricting the second amendment, they don't come after the first or fourth after that?


As far as facts for Hillary:

She believes the Supreme Court made the wrong decision on Heller, so that is enough for me. Here she is flip flopping on the issue from what she previously said.

http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb...-chris-wallace-she-doesnt-want-supreme-courts

http://freebeacon.com/politics/leaked-audio-clinton-says-supreme-court-is-wrong-on-second-amendment/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...n-the-heller-decision/?utm_term=.8903d3a31130

On religious liberty (WikiLeaks emails from her staff as well):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...50061aa9fae_story.html?utm_term=.0a23b8acaa6c

More on first amendment:
http://www.freedomworks.org/content/hillary-clinton-desecrate-first-amendment
 
Care to reference the country you are speaking about?

I do find it funny how the Liberal name implies they are for liberty, which is most definitely not the case these days. Alt left should just be renamed to Socialist Party. They need to stop beating around the bush in what their message is.
[doublepost=1491232447][/doublepost]

By the way you speak about the issue, I can tell you know very little about firearms in general and have not spent much time around them. "Coming for your guns" is a very loose terminology and I am inferring that you think my concern would be a force going door to door and rounding up firearms. Yes, this would be very concerning, but I am also troubled by the attack on the second amendment by the left. Two remarks:

1. I urge you to research major populations that were disarmed, how it happened and what it led to. Then you will know what to look for when society begins restricting. In nearly every case it led to mass control of the population and does not end well.

2. I do not care about the second amendment for the sake of "clinging to guns and bible" as the left likes to say. I care about it in regards to the liberty recognized for the individual in this country. What makes you think once they are finished restricting the second amendment, they don't come after the first or fourth after that?


As far as facts for Hillary:

She believes the Supreme Court made the wrong decision on Heller, so that is enough for me. Here she is flip flopping on the issue from what she previously said.

http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb...-chris-wallace-she-doesnt-want-supreme-courts

http://freebeacon.com/politics/leaked-audio-clinton-says-supreme-court-is-wrong-on-second-amendment/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...n-the-heller-decision/?utm_term=.8903d3a31130

On religious liberty (WikiLeaks emails from her staff as well):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...50061aa9fae_story.html?utm_term=.0a23b8acaa6c

More on first amendment:
http://www.freedomworks.org/content/hillary-clinton-desecrate-first-amendment
Compulsory guns for everyone.
 
What these people don't understand is I actually go out of my way to NOT frequent, use, or buy things from businesses that target me.

Come join me and do your little part to mess up their ad targeting.
 
What these people don't understand is I actually go out of my way to NOT frequent, use, or buy things from businesses that target me.

Come join me and do your little part to mess up their ad targeting.

ya, fake information :)
 
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