Privacy Whistleblower Edward Snowden and EFF Slam Apple's Plans to Scan Messages and iCloud Images

[crawfish963]

As someone who investigates CSAM material for a living (sworn LEO), I want to believe Apple’s intentions are good here, but I also see the Pandora’s box this “tool” will open and I think this could be the end of privacy on iOS devices. There are a lot of ways CSAM offenders get caught. This isn’t necessarily going to help catch them but it will open up the back door for political interference.

 

[jdawgnoonan]

Apple is making the best argument for no longer using smartphones as the everything device with this.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

I'm NOT okay with this, Apple.

The end DOES NOT justify the means.

 

[Substance90]

There goes my usually strongest argument for iOS vs. Android.

 

[uptownnyc]

What’s all over? Your crimes?

For example - Tim Cook has been outspoken about his homosexuality, yet homosexuality used to be illegal in the United States. In many parts of the world, this is still the case. Should Apple be served with a subpoena to scan images and identify iPhone users which demonstrate that the laws of the country in which their devices are being used are being broken, will they comply with that subpoena? Would the evolution of LGBTQ rights in the United States ever have happened if there had been tools, such as these, facilitating a legal government crack-down?

 

[quatermass]

What’s all over? Your crimes?

"Wah! My right to commit crimes using an iPhone are being infringed! Wah!"

 

[BlueMoose]

[comments removed to protect anti-c0mmunist pr0testers]

 

[Nuvi]

Gotta say, I agree with this. I think the slippery slope argument is valid here. In the US and Europe they might just use this for child porn (for now), but one the principle is established it becomes much harder for them to tell the government in China that they can't look for anti-CCP images, for example, and so on.

In all honesty it won’t stop at finding child porn. In US and in Europe security agencies have hacked into devices of individuals and organisations (well documented fact). The targets have been both world leaders, journalists, government officials etc. Why on earth would anyone believe that once this scanning backdoor is built it won’t be utilised like other back doors? The best part is that the heavy lifting will be done on client device. This is awesome for those who really want search the data but suck on owners of iOS devices.

All in all, I’m getting fed up with Apples “privacy efforts”. Now it sounds like very empty marketing promises. In matter of fact they can now tear down the walled garden and set up as many alternative app stores as possible. I was very much against it before but now I can’t see that being a realistic security risk anymore. Might ditch the iOS altogether. At least at Android camp they don’t even pretend to be a “security first” company.

 

[javanate]

I hate to say it, but you all realize this happens already in every other aspect of your life? When you went to develop film, that person saw every one of your photos, and they would call the police if they saw something. Your phone calls are listened in on already, they have every right to look through your mail. It's sad but it was always inevitable. You're just never going to have all this interaction with the world in complete privacy that some people imagine.

 

[BlueMoose]

[comments removed to protect anti-c0mmunist pr0testers]

 

[quatermass]

Apple is making the best argument for no longer using smartphones as the everything device with this.

Well, you can still use them, but don't be so naive as to think that what's on there or some connected network or server can't be seen by someone else. I wonder why nobody bothers to read the Ts & Cs that they sign up to and agree to abide by any more? Did you click that button? You did - so you're bound by them. Don't like that? Don't click that button.
And before you respond - actually read the Ts & Cs first. See you in a couple of hours.

 

[steevn]

Hope we don’t ever see or hear anything from Apple again about how important “privacy” is to them as it’s simply a flat out lie from that point on.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Apple, what the FRAK?!

After all that crap about privacy, you state OPENLY that you will invade it?!

They need to backpedal on this RIGHT NOW.

 

[MRrainer]

It's an awful place to be in for Apple.
I can understand the anxiety, fear of parents. Nobody wants your to have the kid airdropped a dick-pic from a random stranger on the train.

But it's also a slippery road on a path to mass-surveillance.

It's a sad thing that Apple deems this necessary.

 

[DaveTheRave]

What’s all over? Your crimes?

In some countries, saying any critical of your goverment can be considered a crime. Imagine the government quietly forcing Apple to scan for dissidents. Scary...

 

[GadgetBen]

The main premise is a noble quest. But what happens if you have an innocent picture of your child in the pool or bath?

You suddenly get tagged and wrongly blacklisted/reported to the authorities?

 

[Khedron]

It's an awful place to be in for Apple.
I can understand the anxiety, fear of parents. Nobody wants your to have the kid airdropped a dick-pic from a random stranger on the train.

But it's also a slippery road on a path to mass-surveillance.

It's a sad thing that Apple deems this necessary.

And yet if someone murdered your child Apple would refuse to unlock their phone to provide GPS evidence against them.

Apple’s motive is certainly not protecting children.

 

[Kkspire]

Not sure what this stir up is. If you have a list of known child porn on your iCloud (not photos of your kids in the bath tub), and you get tagged for it a set number of times, you get referred for review. The argument “but then they could look for other other things” is null and void. If they wanted too, then of coarse tech could do anything they wanted. But thats not the same as doing it. Facebook, twitter and any other platform has been doing this forever to help children, only an issue because apple is doing it. Sure you’ll tweet about it though after you give twitter access to your camera roll.

 

[iceperson]

I don't follow this slippery slope thought process. He is essentially saying he doesn't trust Apple not to abuse this functionality. You could literally apply this to anything if you believe Apple has ill-intentions.

If we believe Apple has some master plan to abuse this then this opens open every part of their ecosystem to the same "it could be abused if they want to" statement.

Exactly. It's not like Apple advertising they are willing to do this won't lead to countries like China leveraging Apple to scan for photos of Taiwan flags, winnie the poo, tank man, etc... There's simply no way this can be abused.

 

[LiE_]

The main premise is a noble quest. But what happens if you have an innocent picture of your child in the pool or bath?

You suddenly get tagged and wrongly blacklisted/reported to the authorities?

That's not how CSAM hashes work, it's not using AI to detect these images. There is already a database of images, and it checks if one of these images is in your library.

Apple said its method of detecting known CSAM is designed with user privacy in mind. Instead of scanning images in the cloud, Apple said the system will perform on-device matching against a database of known CSAM image hashes provided by the NCMEC and other child safety organizations. Apple said it will further transform this database into an unreadable set of hashes that is securely stored on users' devices.

 

[Sam Squanch]

The biggest factor of why I am in the Apple ecosystem is because of privacy. This "think of the children" cry has been deployed before to take away your privacy. This IS a slippery slope... once the scanning is in place there is no reason to ever inform you again for what they are scanning and for whom. The use of child porn is used because they want the perception that if you oppose their "safety" measure than you must have something to hide.

No Apple we have nothing to hide, no Apple we are not pro-child porn... we are very much pro security and privacy and why we chose you over other companies. Just give us a reason to leave and many people who aren't enamoured by your walled garden will suddenly have no reason to stay.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

I can see the downside of this, but having been in the IT business for 40-some years, I have seen a lot of disturbing things.

One residential client of a firm I was subbing for had an extensive collection of pron, and even had a nekud picture of female anatomy as his desktop picture. His wife seemed to either not know, or didn't care.

The troubling moment was one particular person who was having problems with his computer, same firm too, and I was tasked with trying to diagnose his issues. I found a second hard drive, and it had thousands of folders, and thousands of images in each one. Curious, and seeing that the drive, and the main drive too, were nearly full, I opened a folder and clicked on a couple of files. It was kiddie porn. Disgusting stuff. What really rocked me was one of the images had a little girl that looked exactly like my neighbor's daughter. They had moved into the area from an older part of town, and he kept saying he was glad to have moved. Weird people, he said, in the old neighborhood. NO KIDDING.

I reported what I found to the owner of the firm, and he backed me up reporting it to police. The guy who had it was apparently working at a local community college, and volunteered with several area youth agencies. He had plenty of access to kids. The cops at the time were stunned at what I found, and never followed up with me. It was several years later, I found out the monster was plea bargained and not tried for his 'collection'. There were hundreds of thousands of images, and over 90% of it was of children. I was incredulous that the cops and prostituting attorney swept most of it under the rug. This guy was active online, and I'm sure was trading his filth with others.

So that is why I've said that people that sexually abuse children should be given the death penalty. They violated a sacred trust with every child they have an image of. That trust is that they won't abuse them. That guy should have gotten life! Instead, he got probation, I believe, and is still 'out there' somewhere...

People that think this is an overreach, and a violation of privacy, but people need to conceptualize the depth of the toxic crap that is going around. I could describe one of the pictures, but would probably be banned, but who ever that was, with that child, should be rotting in jail, or have been exterminated.

I'm sorry, but I draw the line at that kind of thing. True, scanning *all* pictures in iCloud does seem a little excessive, but if people are dumb enough to collect and save that crap, they deserve to be outed.

So flame away...

(And the owner of the shop reportedly copied the hard drive too. *GAG* I quit shortly after that all happened)

 

[RamGuy]

You can say what you want about their intentions. This is the exact same logic people are using against encryption and whatnot in the first place. If we are going by this logic Apple can just remove on-device encryption, go back to plain text, HTTP and whatnot.

Once you start creating loopholes everything goes to ****. Sure nobody things child pornography is okay. But you have to be extremely naive if you think it's going to end there. And who can really blame China for wanting anti-China propaganda to be scanned? In their point of view, it's illegal so what makes it any different.

The whole premise behind encryption and privacy is that your private life should stay private.

 

[ElectricPotato]

...prepare us for future steps that go even further

This best fits the current evidence. My guess: Apple was forced to add scanning of documents stored locally on devices by various authoritarian governments as a cost of doing business in those countries. Apple knew the surveillance would be discovered so they are trying to dress up the complete loss of privacy as "think of the children" and hope people accept their spot under the microscope without complaint.

 

[IIGS User]

Just need the right leaders to exploit this. Want to know who was at the rallies you don't like or didn't say good things about current leader, piece of cake. The current U.S. president wouldn't do it for example, but its easy to imagine one that would want this information and punish the non supporters.

It's not so much the leaders you need to worry about. I've met the current US president several times before he was even the VP. He's sorta a buffoon, but in a good way. Kinda like Gerald Ford. I can't see him sitting in a room someplace like Monty Burns twirling his moustache and laughing in the shadows like the personification of evil.

It's the immediate underlings you have to worry about. The advisors, the appointed officials, cabinet members, etc. The political apparatchiks who often gain their position through political zeal as opposed to competency. These people can be really dangerous.

The career civil servants who run things from day to day in almost every government organization are just steady workers who prefer a regular paycheck and the proposition of a pension and good health care. A lot of them believe in what they do, and serve for all the "right" reasons but in the end, for most regular folks it boils down to being able to feed your family and make the bills. These people are totally benign and can for the most part be relied upon to do mundane tasks day in and day out with little or no influence from their personal beliefs. If not, they wouldn't last in these positions for their own reasons.

This has been true throughout modern history. It was true during Soviet times in Russia, and in Germany.

So, the leader himself can have the best of intentions, but the upper middle management can be evil as cat crap and really foul things up.