Professionals Complaining about Glossy... Why? (please read!)

[sukanas]

i know theres like at LEAST twenty thousand threads on "boo glossy" but heres my question...

the MBP has and (was having the past years) a TN panel...
it doesnt make sense to me that a pro complains about color accuracy when it comes to glossy because it makes the color off...
although the horizontal view isnt bad.. the vertical still stands up to its horrible reputation of a TN panel

i have attached a picture of the TN gradient
...even if the MBP did have matte, would you pros still want to work w/ color accuracy on that?


on another note, the screen is WAY better than the previous MBP.. the LED backlight is just amazing

attached picture comparing the two was from
http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=310477

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

Search The Forums!!!!

 

[sukanas]

Search The Forums!!!!

sorry if this is repost but correct me if im wrong..
the only forums im findings are the people just complaining either about the glare or color correction

i understand glare but im still confused about color correction
oh and heres the attachment that i forgot

 

[radx]

I am not a photographer and I don't really do any graphic work. However I use my macbook (SR with glossy screen) to write code (it's actually my primary dev machine). Indoors, outdoors, it works pretty nicely, even though there's no LED in it. When I first bought it, about a year ago, I was sort-of scared, coming from matte screens. But in the end it worked out. So I kind of doubt 'll have much problems with this new mbp's screen. Really looking forward to getting that machine

 

[bushbaby]

You mean you haven't seen it yet?

This new screen isn't glossy. It's glassy.

Like a mirror.

Now it will be good to hear from people using 3rd party film overlays to see how they work. But it is just plain silly the way it is now unless you work in a totally blackened room.

 

[radx]

You mean you haven't seen it yet?

This new screen isn't glossy. It's glassy.

Like a mirror.

Now it will be good to hear from people using 3rd party film overlays to see how they work. But it is just plain silly the way it is now unless you work in a totally blackened room.

I haven't seen it, yet

None of the places around (futureshop, BB or pseudo-mac sellers) have the new machines in stock yet.

And I don't live close to any of the official stores.

I kind of doubt it can be that bad... otherwise apple wouldn't have released it.

 

[MasterNile]

I kind of doubt it can't be that bad... otherwise apple wouldn't have released it.

eh? Yeah cause Apple never makes mistakes like releasing computers with cases that crack easily or making cases that make it difficult to change out the hard drive

I'm all for Apple and I prefer Macs to PCs any day but after all is said and done they are just a company that is bound to make mistakes as any other company will.

 

[bcaslis]

You mean you haven't seen it yet?

This new screen isn't glossy. It's glassy.

Like a mirror.

Now it will be good to hear from people using 3rd party film overlays to see how they work. But it is just plain silly the way it is now unless you work in a totally blackened room.

Funny, I used mine in several different lighting conditions so far and it's worked fine. But I'm sure I'm doing something wrong, if it's not matte it must be bad!

 

[radx]

eh? Yeah cause Apple never makes mistakes like releasing computers with cases that crack easily or making cases that make it difficult to change out the hard drive

I'm all for Apple and I prefer Macs to PCs any day but after all is said and done they are just a company that is bound to make mistakes as any other company will.

It's a different kind of issue. Other ones like 8600 or case problems are manufacturing issues. The screen one is a design issue. So I highly doubt.

In fact I really think this whole issue is completely overblown by people looking at those machines in official stores under heavy lighting. Or by people unhappy with Apple's decision to dump matte screens.

Most of the reviews I found say the screen is quite nice. And to be honest I tend to believe in that.

 

[Bobeder9]

The past two generation MBPs, Santa Rosa and Penryn, both had LED backlit displays.

 

[MasterNile]

In fact I really think this whole issue is completely overblown by people looking at those machines in official stores under heavy lighting. Or by people unhappy with Apple's decision to dump matte screens.

First off don't get me wrong I have nothing against either the new MBs or the new MBPs (mainly because they will probably be updated before I have the need for a new one or the money for a new one) but if the screens don't look good under heavy lighting (in some peoples opinions I personally can't say because I haven't bothered to go check them out) like at an Apple Store then it could potentially be a problem in other offices that have heavy lighting.

That being said yesterday I forgot my charger for my MB at home when I came to work and ended up watching the shows I watch on hulu on my work computer rather than on my MB and I'd take my glossy MB screen over the CRT screens the work computers here use any day. We have heavy lighting here and I ended up staring at a reflection of myself through most of Fringe.

But I would be very interested to hear from any photographer that upgraded from the matte MBP to the glossy (or glassy) MBPs and hear what their opinions are of the screen.

 

[QuarterSwede]

From what I understand the glassy/glossy screen makes it hard to color correct because the colors on those screens look more vivid and vibrant than they actually are. Meaning they'll print and show up on others' monitors differently. I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would color correct on a consumer grade display anyway. Most love the screen because it's plenty bright in the field and then color correct on a calibrated external display in the studio.

As far as the glare goes, I don't have a newer iMac or MB/MBP but I do have an iPhone and the only time glare annoys me (I notice it) is when there is plenty of darkness on screen. Usually that's only when I'm watching a movie (on a plane nonetheless). All other times the screen is so bright it washes any reflections out. Personally I prefer glassy over matte because it does seem to be more colorful. Matte tends to dull colors (the opposite problem).

 

[bcaslis]

From what I understand the glassy/glossy screen makes it hard to color correct because the colors on those screens look more vivid and vibrant than they actually are. Meaning they'll print and show up on others' monitors differently. I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would color correct on a consumer grade display anyway. Most love the screen because it's plenty bright in the field and then color correct on a calibrated external display in the studio.

As far as the glare goes, I don't have a newer iMac or MB/MBP but I do have an iPhone and the only time glare annoys me (I notice it) is when there is plenty of darkness on screen. Usually that's only when I'm watching a movie (on a plane nonetheless). All other times the screen is so bright it washes any reflections out. Personally I prefer glassy over matte because it does seem to be more colorful. Matte tends to dull colors (the opposite problem).

This is a myth that just isn't true. Glossy screens are not inherently less accurate color than matte. In fact, I think you could make a strong argument that it is more accurate. However the matte display does diffuse colors making them more washed out and therefore slightly closer to a printout which is inherently less saturated than a display with lighting behind it.

I've color calibrated the screen and it's MUCH better than the previous 15" matte screens I've tried. You may or may not prefer glossy, but this less accurate color is a myth that started with extremely cheap quality glossy screens used in PC laptops years ago.

 

[QuarterSwede]

This is a myth that just isn't true. Glossy screens are not inherently less accurate color than matte. In fact, I think you could make a strong argument that it is more accurate. However the matte display does diffuse colors making them more washed out and therefore slightly closer to a printout which is inherently less saturated than a display with lighting behind it.

I've color calibrated the screen and it's MUCH better than the previous 15" matte screens I've tried. You may or may not prefer glossy, but this less accurate color is a myth that started with extremely cheap quality glossy screens used in PC laptops years ago.

Good to know. Like I said, I prefer glassy screens. That could be just because of the LED backlighting and newer LCD technology though.

 

[rychencop]

The past two generation MBPs, Santa Rosa and Penryn, both had LED backlit displays.

only the 15 inchers though.

 

[pdxflint]

it's not about color... it's the g*&%*@ reflections.

My matte 15" MBP with led screen gets pretty bright, and I seldom, if ever, use it a full brightness. I can't imagine needing to turn it up all the way just to cover up reflections on a glossy/mirror finish screen. And with glossy, unless you have a totally white screen - anything dark on screen allows it to simulate a mirror.

Maybe with enough practice we can train our mind to ignore visual signals like... reflections, to actually not see something that is really there. I'm sure that's how lots of folks subconsciously get used to it, and in the meantime they're all gaga over the slick, liquidy, candy-like shininess... like a big spoonful of sweetness up front, great for initial impressions but over the long haul annoying as the novelty effect wears off, unless you subliminally trick your eyes and mind to not see the reflections. Yes... reflections. They are there. Its a simple fact. Many of us don't want to have to deal with them, even in exchange for a little glitz, or a lot of bling. Those of you who don't mind them (reflections,) or don't see them... well, good for you. I don't advocate Apple take the bling away from you, just don't try to shove it off on me. I don't want reflections. I don't want shiny. You can have them. Go in peace, just give me what I want, too -- a comfortable and effective tool to do my work without having to compromise for the sake of current fashion.
It's not about color balancing/correcting, etc. It's not even really about glare. It's about reflections, hard edged reflections. Like the ones you see in your windshield of a poorly designed car dashboard, especially a light colored dashboard. I don't like having to look through a mirror image of something I'm not interested in looking at when I'm driving in the daytime, or when I'm working on my laptop. How hard is that to accept, and understand by all of you fans of the glossy/glassy screen? Some of us just don't like it. It doesn't make us the bad guys, whiners or any of that other crap I keep hearing from glossy screen fanatics. We're customers, and we have an issue. Period! End of story. Hopefully Apple still thinks we're important enough, since they sure liked us when we were the only ones buying their computers way back when nobody else was... like in the mid-late 90s when only publishers, graphic designers and photojournalists used Macs while the rest of the world (consumer/business) was Wintel. Things have changed a lot, and I'm really glad to have stayed the course with Apple. Just don't turn your back on long-term users now, Steve. It's bad Karma...

 

[UltraNEO*]

Well.... I still prefer the Matte finish to the highly polished finish found in 'modern' MacBook's. To me, the so-called 'diffuse colors' appear more accurate when placed next to hard copies and commercial printed materials than online visualizations but that's my opinion. Also I don't have to suffer from annoying migraines, from straining my poor eyes at the glare for hours on end.

Besides, isn't all this a matter of personal preference?
Therefore, if there's a demand for Matte displays, shouldn't Apple think about bring them back? Maybe as a BTO option.

only the 15 inchers though.

The Santa Rosa Penryn MacBookPro 17" also came with LED backlit displays but you'll have to order the luxury version with the high-resolution screen. I think most don't know about it cause it's an expensive optional extra!! Hence you'd only think it's for the 15 inchers. The default low-resolution model found in all stores was only available with CCFL.

 

[synth3tik]

I think I may have said this in at least half the other threads about glossy/glassy screens.

For me it has nothing to do with being a professional. I just don't like it. That's that. I don't think I need any justifications. I just don't like it.

 

[MasterNile]

I think I may have said this in at least half the other threads about glossy/glassy screens.

For me it has nothing to do with being a professional. I just don't like it. That's that. I don't think I need any justifications. I just don't like it.

Well yeah you don't have to like it (until Apple creates the iMind Controller) but it seems to me this thread is about professionals (not sure if that includes you or not) being prejudice against the new glossy/glassy screens and trying to get some understanding of their logic (and maybe dispel some of the myths).

Obviously you don't need any justifications, but are there any reasons you can pin point as to why you don't like it to help us understand this point of view? ...and can you write those down and tape them to a rock and throw it at Steve Job's head so maybe he'll understand customers like choices?

Edit-After thinking about it for a little bit I came up with the question "Could they have made the screen matte and have it be just as environmentally friendly?" and being ignorant on the subject I pose the same question to anyone that knows more about screens than I

 

[pdxflint]

Edit-After thinking about it for a little bit I came up with the question "Could they have made the screen matte and have it be just as environmentally friendly?" and being ignorant on the subject I pose the same question to anyone that knows more about screens than I

Well, I don't know the answer to that question... but my guess would be yes, they could. But, let's face it... they probably wouldn't give up any functionality for the sake of the environment, (although I think they would for the sake of money.) To be more environmentally friendly, they'd probably only change those things they already can do better, like choices of materials in wiring, coatings and circuit boards, and mercury-free leds, and less packaging, all which don't take away any actual function of the product in the end. So in my opinion the decision to quit offering matte screens had nothing at all to do with being 'green.'

 

[volcom883]

i had been waiting for 10 months to get the MBP.
shiny mirror-like glossy screen option only! what a disappointment!
i was ready to get one this week. however i dont think i could bear with the reflections for the next 3-4 years to be honest.

my question remains the following: how come all the apple engineers decided to bring out this kind of screen? "they must have their reason for it" replied the advisor in the apple centre london when asked about the glossy screen.
exactly they must have a reason. but then cant 50% of people notice that the new apple screens are actually much shinier than other laptops on the market(am i wrong?)

i got a sony vaio fs115b purchased 4 years ago and have never complained about the reflection on its glossy screen.

so i am sorry apple i cant buy it. i simply cant.

gonna wait till january to see if they bring out a matte option. if not, then vive la vie without mac

 

[Timur]

Sorry for the cross posts, but with so many thread starting the same discussion I can hardly write new stories everytime.

Unless you buy an HP 8730w with DreamColor screen most if not all laptop screens are pieces of sh*t compared to proper color-accurate desktop screens. You can have worse vs. worst, but you hardly get good. Does anyone here expect the new screen to be at least 8-bit at all?

Any situation where enviromental light is reflected by the panel will affects it's color reproduction unless you can compensate with brightness or finding a better position. Matte sometimes causes you not to do the latter when you better should. Because of matte screens diffusion spreading reflected light over a larger area these screens are even more affected. Albeit but on the other hand they are affected more evenly.

Apart from that matte screens always have less accurate colors because of their diffusing character also applying to the light emitted from the screen itself. You can easily see color twinkling (frequency modulation) happening when looking at large unicolor areas like the grey/light blue of this forum on many matte screens unless they are "semi"-matte/glossy and thus find a good balance in between.

Many people working in Print prefere sand-paper surface of matte panels for its closer resemblance of printed paper (aka its "disadvantages" like lack of contrast and intensity). But if you are working for Internet or video applications you really want to use glossy. Not only because of the higher accuracy, but also because your target customers will mostly use glossy themselves.

We had a detailed discussion about all that in this thread:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/581350/

Ask yourself which screen leaves more unaffected (/color-accurate) screen estate (area) when reflecting a pointed light-source (indoor light)?

Which screen let's you see more of the actual screen image instead of the panel surface when reflecting a strong diffuse light-source (outside daylight)?

(the dust simulated the rough surface of a matte screen vs. the smooth surface of a glass screen)

One interesting question I have read here is wether the glass' thickness, or better to say diffraction characteristics, will allow proper calibration. Hopefully someone publishes callibration results anytime soon.

 

[synth3tik]

Well yeah you don't have to like it (until Apple creates the iMind Controller) but it seems to me this thread is about professionals (not sure if that includes you or not) being prejudice against the new glossy/glassy screens and trying to get some understanding of their logic (and maybe dispel some of the myths).

Obviously you don't need any justifications, but are there any reasons you can pin point as to why you don't like it to help us understand this point of view? ...and can you write those down and tape them to a rock and throw it at Steve Job's head so maybe he'll understand customers like choices?

Edit-After thinking about it for a little bit I came up with the question "Could they have made the screen matte and have it be just as environmentally friendly?" and being ignorant on the subject I pose the same question to anyone that knows more about screens than I

Yeah my point. I have seen and heard a lot of people say they don't like it and when asked why they are giving reasons like the reflections and the color what have you. I see it as most people just don't like it and some people are trying to get them to justify why they don't like it.

I do professional pro audio. I also do graphics, but haven't really in some time. In the pro audio realm the added contrast from the glossy screen would be a benefit when working on a large arrangement as tracks can quickly appear to mesh together, but for me it just hurts the ol' eye balls. When being asked I do find myself getting into the whole correct graphics, but really it's just comfort.

BTW these iapps are getting out of hand. iMind Control, ivoting booth (complete with recounting software).... scary

 

[djellison]

the dust simulated the rough surface of a matte screen vs. the smooth surface of a glass screen

No it doesn't - not even slightly.

 

[pdxflint]

Timor... who cares? It's a great argument that won't convince anyone to change how they respond to glossy vs matte. It's ultimately not about color accuracy, but about reflections and eyestrain. If you like glossy, have at it. I prefer matte to "shiny, directly reflective" for my laptop display. It makes me happy, while the glossy makes me really, really irritable. Fortunately for me, I'm writing this on a gorgeous matte 15.4" MBP screen, so I'm good. In the future, I want to be able to say the same thing when I buy a new Apple product. That's really 'bout it...

BTW: That crap covered screen (dust?? Wow ) sure doesn't even begin to illustrate your point about matte screens. It just looks like someone's really has a dusty house. Sorry...