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macOS Programming Career Question
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I wrote a nice piece but decided that it is simply too valuable to give out for free. But all I can give out declassified is that understanding the business is the most important to make a lot of money. Doing things for the love is BS, when its endless, relentless crunchtime, the love sours into resentment and depression. You will get tired, whether it is 1 week, 3 months or a year. A solid understanding of the business will keep you rolling like a machine however.
Oh wow that look's like a wonderful book! And really cheap too
. I'm actually going to go buy it tomorrow! Thanks!
You've mentioned several things here like Assembly, Java, C, web and so on...
Long ago, I learned the difference between a 'handyman' and a 'specialist' ... as one saying put it, "you can know a little about a lot or a lot about a little"
Put yourself in the shoes of the person hiring. What would you think when you start hearing all these "... I've studied _____" You start to think this person is not focused and trying to cover all the bases.
Point: Don't make the common mistake of trying to cover all the bases or claiming you can fix anything.
Consider the value of a specialist.
You might think that you'll be safer if you can fix all things, but how good can you be at fixing all things?
Remember, the experience time race. Somethiing new comes out and if it gains traction, people start climbing on board. If it's a hit, and you have a usable knowledge of it, you can win... If however you are late to the game, you'll always be playing 2nd string. Your years will always be a few years behind.
It's kinda like the old country doctor vs the modern specialist. You wouldn't want a general doctor patching up your heart, you'd rather have a 10 years in, heart specialist.
A good chef knows not to ruin a great meal by making it something it was never meant to be.
I've not programmed anything PC in several years now. All my effort is focused on handheald devices and right now it all on iOS devices.
Colleges have classes most all the students take, they also have other classes only certain students take. This is done for a reason.
Long ago, I learned the difference between a 'handyman' and a 'specialist' ... as one saying put it, "you can know a little about a lot or a lot about a little"
Put yourself in the shoes of the person hiring. What would you think when you start hearing all these "... I've studied _____" You start to think this person is not focused and trying to cover all the bases.
Point: Don't make the common mistake of trying to cover all the bases or claiming you can fix anything.
Consider the value of a specialist.
You might think that you'll be safer if you can fix all things, but how good can you be at fixing all things?
Remember, the experience time race. Somethiing new comes out and if it gains traction, people start climbing on board. If it's a hit, and you have a usable knowledge of it, you can win... If however you are late to the game, you'll always be playing 2nd string. Your years will always be a few years behind.
It's kinda like the old country doctor vs the modern specialist. You wouldn't want a general doctor patching up your heart, you'd rather have a 10 years in, heart specialist.
A good chef knows not to ruin a great meal by making it something it was never meant to be.
I've not programmed anything PC in several years now. All my effort is focused on handheald devices and right now it all on iOS devices.
Colleges have classes most all the students take, they also have other classes only certain students take. This is done for a reason.
Speaking as a primary care doctor (not really an "old country doctor", since I'm in the Detroit suburbs, but same idea), I actually agree with your comment 100%. Specialists make more money and they should. They're better qualified than me to address their specific areas of interest. However, my job is to work as the "gatekeeper" in the sense that I take care of LOTS of minor problems (colds, back pain, migraines, small lacerations, etc.) and manage many, many chronic general health problems (high blood pressure, high cholesterol, asthma, diabetes, etc.), but I'm the first to refer to a cardiologist when someone is having symptoms of angina. My job is fun and interesting, but it's certainly not the most lucrative. On the flip side, I have spare time for doing things like spending time on MacRumors or trying to learn about programming (unlike my cardiologist friends).
Back to the programming analogy, if you want to teach high school computer science and have your summers and weekends off, being a "generalist" will probably suit you well. You'd be well versed in lots of languages and general concepts -- perfect for teaching inexperienced kids. But, if you want to make big bucks writing software and you aren't afraid of 70-80 hour work weeks, you would probably be best served by finding your area of interest and then zeroing in on it. Also, make your area of interest something that's high in demand right now.
Well every time I try to zero in on something people will either say, "There aren't going to be many jobs that don't use Windows computers" or "What if the thing you are studying isn't popular anymore when it is time for you to find a job?"
This is exactly what happened to me. I was/am one of the best for database DOS platform... I made some money from it. Jobs went from popular to sparse, to NONE!
This is just the way life is. Same thing with video store clerks, newspaper type setters, PhotoMat employees, etc...
You'll have to come to terms with these facts:
1. high tech changes quickly
2. NO company can control the direction forever (remember Apple was almost out of business a few years back)
3. You can be left hanging (ask anyone that signed up as a WebOS developer)
There is an upside:
1. When you get the timing right, you can cash in nicely
2. Learning crossover, logic is logic and business reports are still much the same. I was doing OO programming way back then, so I didn't have to learn much new. Some things have a lot in common, C#/Java ...
One other note: years ago, head hunters looked for keywords and numbers, that's it! You didn't get the job based on skill, you got it because you had the right keywords and the right number of years. Head hunters were CLUELESS yet did a very important job.
BTW, Windows will continue to rule the desktop world, but the desktop world is NOT the whole world, handhelds are making inroads into the business/work world.
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Head hunters are still clueless. Also I have never seen any favoritism for someone who went to a top 10 college. Most only care if you have a BS, Some only care if you have a BS in CS, and usually all of them will trade 5 years of experience for a BS.
I say go with the flow, be ready for change, and don't spend the money on the top 10 school unless you have a very specific path in mind (ie. Startup poaching, google, etc)
Finally, to just say 100K is silly. In DC 100K is nice, but not great. And you have to fight hours of traffic EVERY DAY or pay high mass transit prices every day. In somewhere like South Carolina, 70K would be equivalent in comfort plus you wouldn't have to deal with traffic and you would get back 2 hours of your life every day.
I say go with the flow, be ready for change, and don't spend the money on the top 10 school unless you have a very specific path in mind (ie. Startup poaching, google, etc)
Finally, to just say 100K is silly. In DC 100K is nice, but not great. And you have to fight hours of traffic EVERY DAY or pay high mass transit prices every day. In somewhere like South Carolina, 70K would be equivalent in comfort plus you wouldn't have to deal with traffic and you would get back 2 hours of your life every day.
First off, this top ten school is a public school and it's not very expensive. Two, of course there going to see that I went to a good school but that's not going to be the only thing they look at. They're gonna see what I majored in(planning on getting a masters) and what classes I took. But other than that, yes they are mainly going to want to know my skill level in a certain field. I could be wrong but I have a feeling software engineering may be a solid and decent job to have that won't unneeded for a while. But yeah I just have to wait until after I get the education to actually look at all the jobs! I mean I may hate to use Windows right now but because of technology, things can change fast! But, how long would it take me to learn Windows so i'm an expert with it? Because what if I wait until the last minute to start using Windows?
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Generally a MS doesn't have the same value in CompSci as it would in some other fields. Of all the jobs I've had, having a BS never set me back and I've had some high level jobs.
On the subject of Windows, this really depends on what you want to do. Generally speaking, any job where you focus on the OS is going to be an entry level job. OS is just the software that gets in the way of you doing what you want the computer to do. I'd work in a command line OS if I had the choice
Everything you need to know about Windows, you can learn in a week, unless you intend on doing user support / upgrades / help desk. ... not exactly what someone with a MS in mind would be shooting for.
One other thing you'll have to come to terms with is that you most likely will NOT like every program/OS/Language/API/Devices etc... that you'll have to work with.
I had to work with modems, they suck, each one had a different init string and they never seemed to work all day without a reboot. It was just part of the job.
On the subject of Windows, this really depends on what you want to do. Generally speaking, any job where you focus on the OS is going to be an entry level job. OS is just the software that gets in the way of you doing what you want the computer to do. I'd work in a command line OS if I had the choice
Everything you need to know about Windows, you can learn in a week, unless you intend on doing user support / upgrades / help desk. ... not exactly what someone with a MS in mind would be shooting for.
One other thing you'll have to come to terms with is that you most likely will NOT like every program/OS/Language/API/Devices etc... that you'll have to work with.
I had to work with modems, they suck, each one had a different init string and they never seemed to work all day without a reboot. It was just part of the job.
I would say that an MS in CS has no salary value after the first job or two. It may help you get a first job in some specialty area, or get you involved in a high visibility graduate research or open source project, but once in, all the value is in your work experience in that area. The smaller the company (e.g. startups), the more this is true.
In my opinion, the best specialists also have a bit of generalists in them, to have a good understanding of all the layers and connections underlying their specialty (e.g. when not to use it). And the best generalists have enough specialist experience to know how little they know (e.g. the limitations of general knowledge). That sometimes makes them better at climbing the management ladder, if that is of any interest to you.
The whole tone of this has been very odd. The OP started with what he is going to do, then asked if those are the right inputs to produce a job (career is being misused, I'd say) whose base salary is >= $100,000 per year. A lot of additional questions were asked of the OP to narrow down the scope, and many weren't answered. The real answer is that there aren't a set of prerequisites that will yield the desired outcome in and of themselves.
I've known people with the criteria you describe making less than you hope for and people without them making more. I can, in general, tell you that there are diminishing returns when you move up the chain from high school -> associates -> bachelors -> masters -> PhD in CS. Most job listings ask for BS or above. If they want more, experience generally substitutes. Generally it will in place of a BS, too. I'd say a HS education is probably a minimum. Generally everyone has a story about a great programmer with no college education. You can read studies on career-long earning potential by degree.
http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp/
This says for an undergrad CS degree the mid-career median is ~$98K/year. This is not base, this includes bonuses, etc.
This article:
http://www.usnews.com/education/bes.../how-higher-education-affects-lifetime-salary
states that a masters earns you $400K more over your career. So over about 40 years that's about $10K more per year.*
Combining these, this means mid-career a MS might be at ~$110K. So scoot that back a few years, maybe 3-5, to get $100K. So we'll say that's at 42 vs. 45 for a BS. So to reach your goal you need to get older (more experience). More education will cut the wait down a little, but not a lot. If you need $100K base, you have to remove bonuses, etc. so you might be looking at closer to 50-55 for either.
The other option is to be exceptional. The way to $100K is to be worth a few times that to an employer, and be sure they know it and compensate properly. Being exceptional is not a product of more letters after your name. You can have both, which is great, but don't think you'll automatically be able to demand a higher salary due to your degree. And definitely don't think you're going to make more because of where you went to school. Unless academia is your goal, school rankings are not that important.
I'll close with: worry more about a fulfilling job/career and being happy. If you make a few million dollars along the way, great. But don't be miserable for 10-25 years because your salary isn't at an artificial benchmark.
-Lee
I've known people with the criteria you describe making less than you hope for and people without them making more. I can, in general, tell you that there are diminishing returns when you move up the chain from high school -> associates -> bachelors -> masters -> PhD in CS. Most job listings ask for BS or above. If they want more, experience generally substitutes. Generally it will in place of a BS, too. I'd say a HS education is probably a minimum. Generally everyone has a story about a great programmer with no college education. You can read studies on career-long earning potential by degree.
http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp/
This says for an undergrad CS degree the mid-career median is ~$98K/year. This is not base, this includes bonuses, etc.
This article:
http://www.usnews.com/education/bes.../how-higher-education-affects-lifetime-salary
states that a masters earns you $400K more over your career. So over about 40 years that's about $10K more per year.*
Combining these, this means mid-career a MS might be at ~$110K. So scoot that back a few years, maybe 3-5, to get $100K. So we'll say that's at 42 vs. 45 for a BS. So to reach your goal you need to get older (more experience). More education will cut the wait down a little, but not a lot. If you need $100K base, you have to remove bonuses, etc. so you might be looking at closer to 50-55 for either.
The other option is to be exceptional. The way to $100K is to be worth a few times that to an employer, and be sure they know it and compensate properly. Being exceptional is not a product of more letters after your name. You can have both, which is great, but don't think you'll automatically be able to demand a higher salary due to your degree. And definitely don't think you're going to make more because of where you went to school. Unless academia is your goal, school rankings are not that important.
I'll close with: worry more about a fulfilling job/career and being happy. If you make a few million dollars along the way, great. But don't be miserable for 10-25 years because your salary isn't at an artificial benchmark.
-Lee
Good point.
Consider the cost of the MS and the delay it'll cost you.
If you start out at $70K/YR and it takes 2 or 3 years to get the MS... now you're $140K~$210K (plus loans, books, etc)
Several of the classes I took the get my BS, where the same ones required for the MS.
Also, little of what I learned in school, applied to the real world. With tech, a lot of what you learn will not directly apply after a few years at best. I learned Pascal, COBOL, and several others... GUI programming wasn't even offered.
Even now, learning Xcode 4 and iOS 4, parts might go unused... ARC is taking over memory mgmt, the rules for releasing objects are changing per WWDC 2012...
Back then, one VERY important thing was how FRESH the work was... being out of the loop for two years moved you down the list.
Consider the cost of the MS and the delay it'll cost you.
If you start out at $70K/YR and it takes 2 or 3 years to get the MS... now you're $140K~$210K (plus loans, books, etc)
Several of the classes I took the get my BS, where the same ones required for the MS.
Also, little of what I learned in school, applied to the real world. With tech, a lot of what you learn will not directly apply after a few years at best. I learned Pascal, COBOL, and several others... GUI programming wasn't even offered.
Even now, learning Xcode 4 and iOS 4, parts might go unused... ARC is taking over memory mgmt, the rules for releasing objects are changing per WWDC 2012...
Back then, one VERY important thing was how FRESH the work was... being out of the loop for two years moved you down the list.
Well I don't know where you went but I'm positive there is a big difference between BS and MS. You definitely going to have more opportunities and higher pay. You going to learn more with MS I can guarantee that. I mean I agree that technology changes but a MS is only going to benefit me at the least. Plus, CS is the only thing I want to pursue and I can't really think of any other computer degrees.
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You came here to ask if you'll make $100,000 if you get an MS from a top 10 CS school. We've told you that you can do so with a high school degree, an associates, a BS, a PhD, etc. We've also told you that no matter what degree you get it will be a while before you are making that salary. When people have told you real numbers or examples you have seemed disinterested and argumentative.
If you're going to pay for school, let's say that's $50K. Base with a BS is $56K, times 2 years, that's $112K. So you're down $162K. You're also down 2 years of real world experience. Over your career you'll make $400K more, so net you're at $238K more over your career. Over 40 years this is about $6K per year. You have made up your mind that your MS will be very lucrative and will provide you with more opportunities. That's fine, but compared to a BS and real world experience the difference is nominal. I haven't seen a job that absolutely require an MS if you're good enough and have experience. There are definitely some out there, but don't imagine that you'll walk over competing candidates with BSs.
My point is that you should go to school because you have the time, means, and thirst for knowledge, not because you think it will make you richer than your less educated peers. I have a more senior title than my 2 teammates and one of them has a masters, the other a PhD. I have a BA and 8 years experience. They may "catch up", but we're all the same age right now. As I said in my last post... be incredible and you will succeed. You're set on your MS, that's great. Do it. But don't think it makes you win the career lotto. You're going to have to be awesome, too.
-Lee
If you're going to pay for school, let's say that's $50K. Base with a BS is $56K, times 2 years, that's $112K. So you're down $162K. You're also down 2 years of real world experience. Over your career you'll make $400K more, so net you're at $238K more over your career. Over 40 years this is about $6K per year. You have made up your mind that your MS will be very lucrative and will provide you with more opportunities. That's fine, but compared to a BS and real world experience the difference is nominal. I haven't seen a job that absolutely require an MS if you're good enough and have experience. There are definitely some out there, but don't imagine that you'll walk over competing candidates with BSs.
My point is that you should go to school because you have the time, means, and thirst for knowledge, not because you think it will make you richer than your less educated peers. I have a more senior title than my 2 teammates and one of them has a masters, the other a PhD. I have a BA and 8 years experience. They may "catch up", but we're all the same age right now. As I said in my last post... be incredible and you will succeed. You're set on your MS, that's great. Do it. But don't think it makes you win the career lotto. You're going to have to be awesome, too.
-Lee
Best post of the thread. I'd upvote it by my entire weekly quota of upvotes (if upvotes had weekly quotas).
Words of wisdom.
The degree and where it is from may be a tie breaker, but what you can do is what gets you the high salary.
Just do.
B
Getting a master's degree is an investment on your part. It's an investment of your time and it's an investment of your money. It is not a wise investment of your time if all you want to do is write software - there are plenty of jobs out there that don't require a master's degree but do pay you what you want to get paid. And it is not a wise investment of your money if whatever pay increase you may see from having a master's takes years or decades to catch up to the amount of money you spent on the degree and the amount of earnings lost while you were still in school.
The only SURE benefit you will get out of having post-graduate work in computer science is that opportunities for advanced research and teaching college-level courses open up. Employers aren't guaranteed to hire you over someone with a bachelor's just because you have a master's, and even if they do hire you it's not a guarantee that they will pay you more.
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I really don't know where you get this info from. You say:
Look in any job listing and see the number of years, few ask for zero. Consider this:
Person A : BS w/ 2.5 years
Person B : MS w/ 0 years
Now fast forward 5 years A: BS with 7.5 years ... B: MS with 5 years ... pretty much a wash.
One other point is that few (if any) schools change quickly enough to match the trends in the market. Tech changes direction quickly. What you learn might be going out vs something new they don't offer yet and may never offer.
What schools offer is general programming concepts, what companies want is working knowledge of a product/language.
Consider me: BS with decades of software development, for the last 2+ years, I've been learning iOS/Xcode/ObjC etc... I have an advanced knowledge of computer programming, however, 2 years ago, I knew nothing about Apples API or IDE.
Concepts are different from working knowledge. Working knowledge usually comes after concepts.
What do you think the odds are that the MS vs BS is going to get you up and running at a certain company any faster? They use whatever combo of tools, database servers, version control, editors, APIs, etc... Do you think the extra years will be learning each of the products that company uses?
Not likely. Each company selects from a huge list of tools that change over time. Each company has a certain list of needs and beyond the basic direction, these are addressed in the real world.
I see a common theme in these answers and I'd look at some posting for jobs and see if schools actually offer classes on all the products companies are looking for.
Lets say that some new tech comes out and it takes hold in a lot of companies, how long will it take to work it's way into the schools? Now, consider that person A starts using it when if 1st comes out... now person A has working knowledge of the product and can be productive right from the start.
Being productive is very important, there's only so much concept that a company can benefit from.
In contrast, an MBA has more value than a BS, one reason is that in business management, products don't change as quickly and concepts have more value.
Anyways, I think we've over-discussed this. If you feel a financial advantage of waiting a few years to gain an MS will more than pay for itself then have at it.
You assume a lot. And it rarely comes down to a tie breaker where the name of the school is the winner. And why would they see your classes? If I see a resume with a bunch of classes listed, I'm picking the other guy. And I'm going to tell you the Masters will not matter. If you know what you're doing you can beat out someone with a masters every time, esp if you have more experience. (BTW: you seem hell bent on the masters, so get a job with your BS, then have that job pay for the extra school. You get experience and a cheaper masters.)
Never said it wasn't. But you will find your actual job changes as you move up in pay. You may also see something more lucrative. Don't assume you will always be a software engineer.
Why? I didn't wait. I'm paid more than my co-workers every time and I'm promoted faster.
I hate windows too. But you often don't get the choice.
Finally it seems you know more than people here with real world experience.
The masters would not help you at most companies but would open up opportunities at certain companies. There are a number of jobs at companies like apple, google, intel, etc where they are looking for a masters or better. But it won't do any good if you are working on the payroll system for a random business.
Some useful sources for learning programming
http://www.htdp.org/
http://racket-lang.org/
http://www1.idc.ac.il/tecs/
http://www.htdp.org/
http://racket-lang.org/
http://www1.idc.ac.il/tecs/