Proposed Apple Store Location in Australia Gets Temporary Heritage Protection

[steve62388]

I constantly hear this argument, but no matter how I approach it, it always feels like a massive stretch to compare a small retail store selling foods, snacks, drinks and public transport passes (which itself is a public service) to a large, multi-level consumer electronics retailer selling phones and laptops that would involve demolishing an entire existing building to fit.

They're both commercial businesses, but worlds apart in the service they offer to the community. After all, it stands to reason that someone passing through Fed Square may want to recharge their public transport pass, or grab a snack. It offers a service to the members of the public already using the square.

There's no reason someone casually passing through Fed Square would suddenly need a new phone, or tablet, or computer so quickly that they couldn't wander a few blocks over to a store placed within a dedicated dense-commercial zoned district. That's the problem. The Apple Store doesn't need to be there. It could be anywhere else. Apple wants it there because it serves well for their brand image.

But Apple's brand image shouldn't take precedence over the wishes of the people of Melbourne on how their public space is used. The people should be allowed to formally have a say in the matter, and from what I understand both the Andrews government and Apple have so far denied them their right to do so.

Hopefully Fed Square receives permanent heritage protection status, if only to enforce due process and consultation on what should and shouldn't be constructed there.

But @first-to-tea explained it better than I ever could, so anyone unaware of the situation should have a read of their post above.

Frankly, all first-to-tea's points are moot. As somebody that only joined when this article was posted and whose only posts have been about this specific subject they are clearly part of the campaign and have come with a specific axe to grind. Almost all the posts on this thread (many of which were removed by mods) are not impressed with Federation Square's use and aesthetics and have been broadly supportive of Apple.

As usual with these sorts of things it's a vocal minority who end up wagging the dog.

 

[first-to-tea]

You didnt address the 7-11 which is taking up “valuable” Federation Square space. For what sort of cultural addition?

7/11 offers people something to eat in amongst the mix of other food and beverage places. 7/11 fits into a very small space, almost camouflaged. Apple’s plans completely demolish a multipurpose facility while giving the middle finger to the people of Melbourne. Poor form, Apple. Disgraceful stuff.

[doublepost=1535136620][/doublepost]

Australian here. Federation Square is an ugly useful space that shouldn't be heritage listed because it is younger than the iPod. An Apple store is greatly needed in Melbourne CBD. Build the damn thing already.

Apple can build in Bourke street mall where the other like shops live.
[doublepost=1535136835][/doublepost]

I constantly hear this argument, but no matter how I approach it, it always feels like a massive stretch to compare a small retail store selling foods, snacks, drinks and public transport passes (which itself is a public service) to a large, multi-level consumer electronics retailer selling phones and laptops that would involve demolishing an entire existing building to fit.

They're both commercial businesses, but worlds apart in the service they offer to the community. After all, it stands to reason that someone passing through Fed Square may want to recharge their public transport pass, or grab a snack. It offers a service to the members of the public already using the square.

There's no reason someone casually passing through Fed Square would suddenly need a new phone, or tablet, or computer so quickly that they couldn't wander a few blocks over to a store placed within a dedicated dense-commercial zoned district. That's the problem. The Apple Store doesn't need to be there. It could be anywhere else. Apple wants it there because it serves well for their brand image.

But Apple's brand image shouldn't take precedence over the wishes of the people of Melbourne on how their public space is used. The people should be allowed to formally have a say in the matter, and from what I understand both the Andrews government and Apple have so far denied them their right to do so.

Hopefully Fed Square receives permanent heritage protection status, if only to enforce due process and consultation on what should and shouldn't be constructed there.

But @first-to-tea explained it better than I ever could, so anyone unaware of the situation should have a read of their post above.

I thought your explanation was better. Ha. Good points. Due process has not occurred here.
[doublepost=1535137736][/doublepost]

Frankly, all first-to-tea's points are moot. As somebody that only joined when this article was posted and whose only posts have been about this specific subject they are clearly part of the campaign and have come with a specific axe to grind. Almost all the posts on this thread (many of which were removed by mods) are not impressed with Federation Square's use and aesthetics and have been broadly supportive of Apple.

As usual with these sorts of things it's a vocal minority who end up wagging the dog.

About 80% of people are AGAINST Apple’s plans to demolish Federation Square. That’s not a “vocal minority”, very much the opposite. Yes, I am part of the “campaign”, one in the 100,000 signatures in the “campaign”.
I think it’s just sick that Apple believes it is entitled to trash Melbourne’s city, or Stockholm Sweden where a similar situation is playing out, and sick that Apple refuses to consult with residents.

Subject: Fed Square. Hello, Apple. Think Different. Signed with love, Melbourne.
[doublepost=1535137918][/doublepost]

Exactly. Unless it isn’t. Me? I think there’s already too much hair-trigger outrage in the world. I predict Melbourne will have it’s new Apple store and life will still be fine.

Melbourne will probably get an Apple owned Apple store, but it won’t be at the public’s Federation Square.

 

[steve62388]

About 80% of people are AGAINST Apple’s plans to demolish Federation Square. That’s not a “vocal minority”, very much the opposite. Yes, I am part of the “campaign”, one in the 100,000 signatures in the “campaign”.

Your claim that 80% or people are against Apple’s plans do not hold up to scrutiny. You’re basing it on problematic statistics.

You’re using this http://www.openhousemelbourne.org/apple-fed-square-debate-wrap/ where there were only 70 respondents, which is a pathetically small sample size.

And this http://web.archive.org/web/20171222...s-federation-square-base-20171220-h07s84.html where the number of respondents was larger, but it was an opt in poll and it even states that the results are not scientific.

Commission an unbiased scientifically rigid poll and then you may have the right to make your claim. Until then your proclamations are based on wishful thinking.

 

[first-to-tea]

Your claim that 80% or people are against Apple’s plans do not hold up to scrutiny. You’re basing it on problematic statistics.

You’re using this http://www.openhousemelbourne.org/apple-fed-square-debate-wrap/ where there were only 70 respondents, which is a pathetically small sample size.

And this http://web.archive.org/web/20171222...s-federation-square-base-20171220-h07s84.html where the number of respondents was larger, but it was an opt in poll and it even states that the results are not scientific.

Commission an unbiased scientifically rigid poll and then you may have the right to make your claim. Until then your proclamations are based on wishful thinking.

A few things.

First, this reaction to Apple’s plan from the city of Melbourne is completely unprecedented. Never before have we seen such a bad reaction to Apple announcing a new store. This initial reaction should have had Apple reconsidering plans immediately.

Public debate was attended by hundreds of people, the final result from the debate was overwhelmingly against the Apple store, that result was followed up by the negative post debate results.

News poll ran for 48 hours and about 10000 votes, with about 80% against.

Thousands of negative comments across social media calling for Apple’s store to be cancelled.

More than 100,000 signatures on petitions.

A campaign that is dedicated to ending the plans and many local institutions banding together.

Does this all really sound like a city which is welcoming Apple to Federation Square ??? I think not.

Apple is having a lot of trouble, and making a lot of trouble around the world, trying to set up retail shops in parks and public spaces. Not because this is forward thinking, but because it is completely regressive thinking.

The Washington DC Library store in the US encountered difficulties and push back from local residents. Recent polls in Sweden Stockholm have also slammed Apple’s plans for a store at Kungstradgarden.

So, no wishful thinking here. We have enough solid evidence to avoid the need to “commission an unbiased scientifically rigid poll”.

The question we all need to ask is why Apple has engaged in secret talks with local government for over two years with an aggressive plan to demolish prized public space? A follow up question is why has Apple deliberately excluded local citizens and not consulted before or after plans were announced?

Apple’s project in Melbourne is on thin ice.

 

[steve62388]

So, no wishful thinking here. We have enough solid evidence to avoid the need to “commission an unbiased scientifically rigid poll”.

No you don’t. Go and get some, until then stop spreading bogus stats.

 

[first-to-tea]

No you don’t. Go and get some, until then stop spreading bogus stats.

Interesting your quoted reply omits all of the facts and circumstances leading up to current time.

A few things.

First, this reaction to Apple’s plan from the city of Melbourne is completely unprecedented. Never before have we seen such a bad reaction to Apple announcing a new store. This initial reaction should have had Apple reconsidering plans immediately.

Public debate was attended by hundreds of people, the final result from the debate was overwhelmingly against the Apple store, that result was followed up by the negative post debate results.

News poll ran for 48 hours and about 10000 votes, with about 80% against.

Thousands of negative comments across social media calling for Apple’s store to be cancelled.

More than 100,000 signatures on petitions.

A campaign that is dedicated to ending the plans and many local institutions banding together.

Does this all really sound like a city which is welcoming Apple to Federation Square ??? I think not.

Apple is having a lot of trouble, and making a lot of trouble around the world, trying to set up retail shops in parks and public spaces. Not because this is forward thinking, but because it is completely regressive thinking.

The Washington DC Library store in the US encountered difficulties and push back from local residents. Recent polls in Sweden Stockholm have also slammed Apple’s plans for a store at Kungstradgarden.

So, no wishful thinking here. We have enough solid evidence to avoid the need to “commission an unbiased scientifically rigid poll”.

The question we all need to ask is why Apple has engaged in secret talks with local government for over two years with an aggressive plan to demolish prized public space? A follow up question is why has Apple deliberately excluded local citizens and not consulted before or after plans were announced?

Apple’s project in Melbourne is on thin ice.

 

[steve62388]

Interesting your quoted reply omits all of the facts and circumstances leading up to current time.

The only facts you have presented is that 80% of people oppose the build, and I have demonstrated that statistic is incredibly unsafe. And please don’t tell me you’re relying on 100,000 petitioners from change.org

the platform has been criticized for not providing enough information on who has signed a petition; for instance a means of verifying that a petition protesting a politician has been signed by his or her constituents or that the signatures are genuine at all.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change.org#Criticism

The rest is just rantings and ravings.

 

[thisrocks]

I constantly hear this argument, but no matter how I approach it, it always feels like a massive stretch to need a new phone, or tablet, or computer so quickly that they couldn't wander a few blocks over to a store placed within a dedicated dense-commercial district.

(Editing that quote down on iOS Safari was an absolute chore)
There is a premium Mac Reseller RIGHT next to fed square.

[speculating] They would probably go out of business or have to move again, and maybe this time much further down Flinders street to remain operating. [/speculating]

I want an Apple store in the CBD as much as the next Mac Rumors Melburnian (and this is even coming from someone that lives very, very close to one of the existing stores) but it doesn’t have to be in Fed Square.

 

[first-to-tea]

The only facts you have presented is that 80% of people oppose the build, and I have demonstrated that statistic is incredibly unsafe. And please don’t tell me you’re relying on 100,000 petitioners from change.org


Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change.org#Criticism

The rest is just rantings and ravings.

Actually, your credibility is under question, I actually rely on a whole number of indisputable factors which you ignore. This issue is unprecedented for Apple. These are the plain facts highlighting the complete rejection of Apple at Federation Square.

Federation Square was established after an open international design competition in 1996, and opened in 2002. A public civic cultural space for locals and visitors.

Yarra Building houses four tenants, including an Aboriginal museum, cultural organisation, and dining outlets.

Apple engaged in secret talks with local government for over two years.

Apple deliberately excludes local citizens and does not consult before or after plans announced.

Apple’s plans announce demolition of Federation Square to build a retail store. This news is met with outrage from locals.

48 hour news poll finds about 10000 votes, with about 80% against Apple plans. Similarly a poll in Sweden Stockholm has 80% of locals slam Apple’s plans for a store at Kungstradgarden park.

Free open public debate attended by hundreds of people, Apple declines to participate.

Public debate finds attendees overwhelmingly against the Apple store, post debate survey result finds 80% against plans.

Thousands of negative comments across social media call for Apple’s store to be cancelled.

More than 100,000 signatures on petitions. Thousands of negative comments recorded against plans on petitions.

More than thousand letters to politicians call for Apple’s retail store to be scrapped.

Campaign is established dedicated to ending the plans with many local institutions banding together.

Apple releases two different store designs, both designs slammed and rejected by locals.

Heritage listing considered for Federation Square.

 

[steve62388]

Actually, your credibility is under question, I actually rely on a whole number of indisputable factors which you ignore. This issue is unprecedented for Apple. These are the plain facts highlighting the complete rejection of Apple at Federation Square.

Federation Square was established after an open international design competition in 1996, and opened in 2002. A public civic cultural space for locals and visitors.

Yarra Building houses four tenants, including an Aboriginal museum, cultural organisation, and dining outlets.

Apple engaged in secret talks with local government for over two years.

Apple deliberately excludes local citizens and does not consult before or after plans announced.

Apple’s plans announce demolition of Federation Square to build a retail store. This news is met with outrage from locals.

48 hour news poll finds about 10000 votes, with about 80% against Apple plans. Similarly a poll in Sweden Stockholm has 80% of locals slam Apple’s plans for a store at Kungstradgarden park.

Free open public debate attended by hundreds of people, Apple declines to participate.

Public debate finds attendees overwhelmingly against the Apple store, post debate survey result finds 80% against plans.

Thousands of negative comments across social media call for Apple’s store to be cancelled.

More than 100,000 signatures on petitions. Thousands of negative comments recorded against plans on petitions.

More than thousand letters to politicians call for Apple’s retail store to be scrapped.

Campaign is established dedicated to ending the plans with many local institutions banding together.

Apple releases two different store designs, both designs slammed and rejected by locals.

Heritage listing considered for Federation Square.

Says the person who has only now turned up on the forums to grind their anti-corporation and/or anti-Apple axe and has made no other contributions.

You keep quoting figures that have been discredited. Given your refusal to accept reality don't expect anybody to take you seriously. Local planning issues are relevant to the local populace, you're either from Melbourne, Stockholm or neither, in which case at least one of those issues are none of your business

 

[first-to-tea]

You keep quoting figures that have been discredited. Given your refusal to accept reality and that you are now bringing up Sweden it's blatantly clear you have an anti-corporation and/or anti-Apple bias. So don't expect anybody to take you seriously. Local planning issues are relevant to the local populace, you're either from Melbourne, Stockholm or neither, in which case at least one of those issues are none of your business

None of the figures quoted discredited. They all stand strong and are easily verifiable. Honesty is always the best policy, try that. Google “apple federation square” to discover what’s going on with opposition to Apple’s demolition in Melbourne.
[doublepost=1535225115][/doublepost]

Says the person who has only now turned up on the forums to grind their anti-corporation and/or anti-Apple axe and has made no other contributions.

You keep quoting figures that have been discredited. Given your refusal to accept reality don't expect anybody to take you seriously. Local planning issues are relevant to the local populace, you're either from Melbourne, Stockholm or neither, in which case at least one of those issues are none of your business

By the way, this isn’t an anti corporation argument.

Heritage for something that's only 16 years old?!? Sounds more like it's an anti-corporation move to me.

Heritage refers to more than just “age”, it’s more complex than that. The claims around anti corporation moves are hysterical nonsense and just a distraction from the issues at hand.

 

[steve62388]

None of the figures quoted discredited.

Yes they are. And your refusal to accept the statistics are unsafe even when the poll taker acknowledges it, shows how blind with bias you have become. Their own disclaimer states: These polls are not scientific and reflect the opinion only of visitors who have chosen to participate.

By the way, this isn’t an anti corporation argument.

That may be true, but you personally have zero credibility (based on the fact you’re unable to accept some basic statistical facts) and are doing a disservice to the argument. I’m guessing you found your way here through some link and will not continue to post messages in the future. Do you even own an Apple product?

 

[first-to-tea]

Yes they are. And your refusal to accept the statistics are unsafe even when the poll taker acknowledges it, shows how blind with bias you have become. Their own disclaimer states: These polls are not scientific and reflect the opinion only of visitors who have chosen to participate.

That may be true, but you personally have zero credibility (based on the fact you’re unable to accept some basic statistical facts) and are doing a disservice to the argument. I’m guessing you found your way here through some link and will not continue to post messages in the future. Do you even own an Apple product?

You might like to dispute the validity of polls, signatures, people sitting in the seats of an auditorium at a public debate, but doing so strongly highlights your lack of genuine honest participation in conversation.

As I mentioned, many facts surround Apple’s troubled planned Federation Square store and complete rejection of it in Melbourne Australia. https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...itage-protection.2133675/page-2#post-26385003

Get across the issues. Watch the sold out free public debate. See the resounded majority of hands raise to vote against an Apple store in Federation Square at 2:13:00.

 

[steve62388]

You might like to dispute the validity of polls, signatures, people sitting in the seats of an auditorium at a public debate, but doing so strongly highlights your lack of genuine honest participation in conversation.

As I mentioned, many facts surround Apple’s troubled planned Federation Square store and complete rejection of it in Melbourne Australia. https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...itage-protection.2133675/page-2#post-26385003

Get across the issues. Watch the sold out free public debate. See the resounded majority of hands raise to vote against an Apple store in Federation Square at 2:13:00.

I just don’t like it when people use bogus stats, it’s disingenuous. I’ll be here to call you out every time you use them. If you’re going to come and crash an Apple forum when you don’t even have anything else to contribute (by not owning any Apple products) in an attempt to make a political point then try to come better armed.

Your video link is the same that I pointed out had 70 respondents, which is laughable. You’re terrible at this.

 

[first-to-tea]

I just don’t like it when people use bogus stats, it’s disingenuous. I’ll be here to call you out every time you use them. If you’re going to come and crash an Apple forum when you don’t even have anything else to contribute (by not owning any Apple products) in an attempt to make a political point then try to come better armed.

Your video link is the same that I pointed out had 70 respondents, which is laughable. You’re terrible at this.

No bogus stats. Just 14 plain hard facts. You actually have refused to address them. Reply and respond to each if you believe they are “bogus”.
The public debate auditorium holds 450 people. The event was sold out. The resounding majority of hands at the end of the debate voted against Apple in Federation Square. Watch the video to listen to the view points. vimeo.com/255850661
Some towns don’t like the idea of Apple demolishing their cultural institutions. The people are completely justified. That’s the point here.

 

[steve62388]

No bogus stats. Just 14 plain hard facts. You actually have refused to address them. Reply and respond to each if you believe they are “bogus”.
The public debate auditorium holds 450 people. The event was sold out. The resounding majority of hands at the end of the debate voted against Apple in Federation Square. Watch the video to listen to the view points. vimeo.com/255850661
Some towns don’t like the idea of Apple demolishing their cultural institutions. The people are completely justified. That’s the point here.

The only statistics you provided have already been shown to be unsound. See here https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...itage-protection.2133675/page-2#post-26383208. Repeating myself ad nauseum will never convince the asinine.

I don't care about your other waffle. But any time you repeat those figures I'll be here to remind readers that they're rubbish.

 

[first-to-tea]

The only statistics you provided have already been shown to be unsound. See here https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...itage-protection.2133675/page-2#post-26383208. Repeating myself ad nauseum will never convince the asinine.
I don't care about your other waffle. But any time you repeat those figures I'll be here to remind readers that they're rubbish.

No flawed statistics, it’s just you saying they are flawed.
We are now waiting on you to please debunk an auditorium filled with 450 people resoundingly voting against Apple in Federation Square at the public debate. Time 2:13:00 vimeo.com/255850661

 

[steve62388]

No flawed statistics, it’s just you saying they are flawed

Nope. The poll itself states: These polls are not scientific and reflect the opinion only of visitors who have chosen to participate.

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20171222...s-federation-square-base-20171220-h07s84.html

 

[albusseverus]

Pretty sure when fed square was first built it got an award for being ugly as.
Make up ya minds people

It's not even a Heritage site! It's relatively new and as you wrote… iffy at best. I'd still rather see Apple open more stores in parts of the country that don't have stores, but I do like the new design better than the old one. That was a worthwhile change.

Without seeing it 'for real', the first design did look over the top, but knowing Apple, would have been great. The real issue is that people don't want corporates dominating what is supposed to be a public space. That's really what the discussion should be about. My memories of it was a bleak and uninviting public space, but public at least. Calling it Heritage is just insulting and avoiding the issue.