Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Proposed online sales tax draws criticism
- Thread starter Chip NoVaMac
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Actually, no. Sales taxes are only one component in the state's litany of taxation and other forms of revenue generation. I'm talking about how this nonsense started happening before the internet, and long before online shopping. Laying the blame for the current budget woes at the feet of e-commerce would be a misrepresentation of both the history of each and the relative value of the "lost" taxes to the overall budget. Also, the claimed lost taxation is nothing but a SWAG, as there can be no way for anyone to claim conclusively what the real value of untaxed purchases is, and as such, will certainly be published at the highest end of whatever range is estimated.
Within my home state, I paycombinednearly $12,000 per year in various state & local taxes. What I don't pay in use taxes because of e-commerce may add up to a total of barely $100 in that same year, and I'm a fairly active online purchaser. I hardly think I'm "cheating," particularly as I've noted before, it's not the taxes I'm trying to avoid, I'm making a purchase that is either unavailable or substantially more expensive locally.
Lastlyand I admit to being fairly unique herethis doesn't even consider the taxes and fees I've ponied up for in the majority of the states in the US over the last decade or so, for which I received no measurable benefit (but the residents have). So, if you've gotten a new stadium or ballpark in the last decade, you're welcome.
Wouldn't this invite double tax dipping? If, as a resident of AL, I buy something online from a store located in CA, I'll be assessed CA tax at the point of sale, then expected to declare what I bought on my state return and pay AL state sales tax as well. Not counting county of city taxes, that's 12.75% combined. At the very least, we could see a lot of businesses relocating to states with no sales tax.
I don't ever recall paying tax on something ordered through the mail or over the phone unless the company was located in my state.
Yes, we all have things that we like to support. And the choices on what to cut will be difficult to make and will end up making some portion of the population angry. But, it is my opinion that CA and the US Federal deficit is so large that it will take BOTH spending cuts and increased taxes in order to fix the problem.
The answer is yes and yes...
I would agree with you that at this point, CA needs revenue increases (i.e. taxes) but they also need drastic budget cuts.
I think the CA politicians are counting on a federal bailout but I doubt that will happen now. The only other way I see out of the problem is for CA to declare bankruptcy. That way the politicians can claim that someone else is responsible for the spending cuts.
One note on taxes. As you add new taxes or increase taxes, you face a diminishing return on the money you bring in. The only long term solution is to cut spending to a sustainable level.
Currently, if I order something on-line and have it shipped to my residence in NH, I pay no sales tax (no sales tax in NH).
On the other hand, if I order something online and have it shipped to where I work in MA, I get charged the MA sales tax.
I also can go into a "real" (not on-line) auto dealer from out of state and not pay any sales tax on my purchase.
Just seems like a scheme to get a bigger share of the on-line tax revenues for CA
Giving the State or Federal Government any more taxes to spent is like feeding the junkies in the park. California never talks about becoming more efficient with with the tax payers dollars. It is always feed me more money to better serve the people. In reality it is give me more money to spend on those groups that are on the dole and promise to keep voting for me.
The infrastructure would be served well if the California politicians would quit raiding the established accounts fed by our tax dollars and use the money for what the people agreed to set up those accounts in the first place.
Leave the big river alone, because once the California raiders get their hands on a larger funding source the money will be waisted anyway. History is very clear on their inability to serve us and use our dollars well.
The infrastructure would be served well if the California politicians would quit raiding the established accounts fed by our tax dollars and use the money for what the people agreed to set up those accounts in the first place.
Leave the big river alone, because once the California raiders get their hands on a larger funding source the money will be waisted anyway. History is very clear on their inability to serve us and use our dollars well.
Working in a B&M store... I can say that the lack of collecting sales taxes is the major reason that folks buy online. Even when the price is close. Did have a customer that I talked with complain in our extended chat - that they were forced to pay an extra fee for their kids to play soccer last year...
Yet she beat me up that she could get the same camera for the same price online - without the sales tax!!!!!!
A pet pieve of mine is that folks that bought online feel that it is their right to come in to my store to teach them about the cameras they bought!
To me it is like going in to Wendy's to complain about a burger from McDonald's. Yet in the end we do try to help them and show them the next time they need a camera why they should come to us.
But as long as the tax issue looms they might go to the lowest bidder.
I always prefer to buy locally, especially when it comes to big-ticket items such as cameras and computers. In the case of either of these, part of the experience of the purchase is the research I've done prior to walking into the store, the discussions about the product with knowledgeable store staff, the hands-on with the item, the assurance that if I have any questions or if there is something not quite right that I can immediately go back to the store, and the availability of accessories or additional items that I otherwise might not have known about. To me, all of that is more than worth paying a few extra dollars in state tax.
Considering California has been driving business out of state for several years, I'm not surprised.
Texas (a business friendly state) is a very agressive sales tax state. So, that's not the reason.
(Warning: link is to a pdf)
Thanks Clix... you are a rare breed it seems at times here in the DC area. LOL
Will be honest there are times that the service, free prints for a year, free classes, and such are not enough to escape the reality of paying sales taxes can't win some over.... LOL
Had to laugh recently given the budget crunch in the area... had a customer that I shared an interest in dogs (some may remember my Chewey threads
)... but with the crunch there is talk of closing some dog parks.... all the while the customer was telling me that they could get the camera at the same price with no sales tax and free shipping online. Clix, you know me
And I held my tongue LOL
Colorado just enacted a law on this as well
Not a fan
http://www.internetretailer.com/dailyNews.asp?id=33771
http://www.sfexaminer.com/economy/o...esses-that-promote-its-products-87023867.html
So glad Ritter is not running for next term
Not a fan
http://www.internetretailer.com/dailyNews.asp?id=33771
http://www.sfexaminer.com/economy/o...esses-that-promote-its-products-87023867.html
So glad Ritter is not running for next term
As Amazon cuts ties to local businesses in states that they have no nexus in - other than affiliate status... I hope that those states will look at RICO charges against Amazon... to me they are truly trying to skirt the tax laws of the states....
There is nothing illegal about skirting tax laws; tax avoidance is perfectly legal. Structuring your transactions and business so that you avoid paying sales taxes, corporate/income taxes, etc. is legal and in the best interest of anyone running a business (and for that matter, in shareholders' best interest).
I think that as Amazon cuts affiliates in states that require collection of sales taxes from them, I think that RICO laws could apply in the end... they knowingly were aiding and abetting breaking sales tax laws with their affiliates.... only after they were "caught" did they severe ties...
As to your comment that it is legal to skirt taxes, maybe yes - but many states require the filing of use taxes (missing sales taxes). And it is in the best interest of the states to use what tools they have to make sure those that break the law are held accountable.
Well if Amazon were already knowingly breaking sales tax laws don't you think the state governments would have gone after them quite a while ago to recover that money? If states had sales tax laws applicable to Amazon's transactions and Amazon failed to pay them, the states would have certainly taken legal action to get the taxes they were entitled to.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a use tax has no applicability to the business that sells the product as the ultimate consumer has the responsibility to report any tax liability, not the company selling the good. Should people pay any use tax they are liable for? Sure, but we'd probably spend a fortune attempting to calculate and recover use taxes from those who didn't declare them on their return. The last thing most state governments need is more bureaucracy in an expensive attempt to collect use taxes.
........and candy bars used to cost a nickel and you could get a scoop of ice cream for ten cents. The cost of products and services tends to go up over time for both us suffering taxpayers and the government. Funding wars in two different countries half way across the globe doesn't help....
The total tax load (Fed. & state income taxes, social security, etc.) paid by US individuals is one of the lowest rates in the world. (Of course if we stopped deficit spending and levied sufficient taxes to cover our actual spending, this might not be true)
Pay up or move out.
Mexico's tax rate is lower than the US...
I'm against a sales tax in general. Look to Europe where the sales tax is 19%. That is what the governments think they are entitled to take away from you AFTER you paid income tax. The fact that many people could evade sales tax by buying online is the only incentive for governments to keep the sales tax low.
I buy from brick and mortar stores if I can AND if I expect to get service. For most brick and mortar stores this isn't true. You get neither advice nor service and you certainly find no know how about their products there. Camera shops are one of the few exemptions and I bought all my cameras and new lenses in brick and mortar shops (with one exemption).
I hope there won't be a online sales tax ever.
I buy from brick and mortar stores if I can AND if I expect to get service. For most brick and mortar stores this isn't true. You get neither advice nor service and you certainly find no know how about their products there. Camera shops are one of the few exemptions and I bought all my cameras and new lenses in brick and mortar shops (with one exemption).
I hope there won't be a online sales tax ever.
As a 2nd generation Native Californian who has seen his state go to hell in a handbasket due to corruption and stupidity, I think they can go to hell. California is the highest taxed state in the nation and we have the worst services. If they pass this, I am sure we will start smuggling goods in from other tax-free states. The Calif Government just needs to go bankrupt and go away. They are worthless.
Taxes of goods from other states is tantamount to an interstate tariff which is illegal.
Taxes of goods from other states is tantamount to an interstate tariff which is illegal.
A quick Google came up with this chart from 2005. So TJRiver may not be leveling any nonsense. And I found this info in just a few clicks after Googling the search term: tax levels by country
Came across this link first; but it did not cover taxes like social security ( http://www.worldwide-tax.com/index.asp#partthree )....
One also has to look at what other countries provide in what we here in the US call "entitlements" for all the additional taxes they pay.
Attachments
Sales tax? If you don't want to pay sales tax move some place without it, like Oregon. Otherwise pay what you owe your state.
Well, only the destination address makes a difference, so no it is not a nightmare.
Although I'd rather pay less taxes, it is unfair for many California based retailers, online or off, that they end up charging sales tax while their competitors don't. If anything, this leads the state to lose retailers to other states.
Amen there brother!
Just my take is that some folks want their cake and eat it too...
In the DC area i have met folks that might be considered to be part of the "Tea Party Movement".
While I have nothing against lowering taxes at the state level... none of them were willing to give up on their dog parks, soccer complexes for their kids, lost tolls for their hybrids...
They loose sight that all of us don't have dogs, or kids they can't take care of (except through MASS sports), or need new roads as long as they can cruise the HOV lanes in their hybrids.
Yes, I had my boy, Chewey, a lab mix... but those were in the days of so much money - that running a dog park was a nice perk. If I still had him around I should be willing to pay for a park for him to play in.
As to the huge soccer complexes and other sporting venues... I look at as parents not wanting to take care of their own. Back in my day (I am 50yo here) parents took care of their own - as opposed to passing them off ad hoc to keep them out of trouble.
As to roads and Mass Transit, why should I pay directly or indirectly for HOT lanes? Why should that money not be put to easing traffic by making things move smoother?
For my commute (10 miles one way) , the fairs would be between $1.35 and $4.90 depending on whether I used a SmartTrip card or cash (one way). Since in this example I might have to be in by 9:45AM, if I took the limited bus service I would have to leave the home by 8:20AM and 8:40AM to be able to make it work by 9:45AM. Sorry for going off on transit cost.. but a pet peeve of mine. LOL
On the day I propose (9:45am to 6PM0 , if I leave at 6PM from my job - I would have to wait till 6:30PM or so for the first bus and would not get home till 7:30PM or 8:00PM! With the fares being the same each way.
Compared to my being able to leave at 9AM or even as late as 9:30AM on some mornings.
For me my car is paid for. I drive under 5k a year. I still have to pay insurance and taxes and such on the car in order to afford a place in the 'burbs. I am not one of the fat cats with a 500K+ home, I exist within my means. Have a modest condo, and try to live a modest life in the last couple of years...
Just that some of us are not dual wage earners here... and many of us are those that "serve" you in your day to day needs.... some of us are close to making it day to day.. without big SUV's and overpriced homes. Or trying to figure out how to pay for that big college school.
Many of us are singles just trying to eek out a life that means something... In this somewhat regular commute (some times I work 9:45AM till 6PM, other times 9:45Am till 9PM, other times 12Pm till 9PM) The later the hours the worse it gets out here.
My commute via the car is less than 30 minutes.
As of right now gas prices are at a break even for me... As I said I need my car to maintain my mobility...
And because I work in the service industry I can't count on being able to leave in time to catch a bus back home... or is my time any less valuable that if I get a bus back home after I get off at 6PM that it takes me 1 1/2 to 2 hours to get home?
Just so that you don't think I am in some backwater area of the DC area... I live in South Reston - a major commuter area - and work in the core of Tyson Corner... just 10 miles apart!
I won't go into longer distances!
CTA has fare that requires subway and bus at a max of of $2.50 any time of the day! On the DC Metro it could be like between $4.15 and $6.20! And maybe more!
As I explained to a couple of gals that complained a couple of years ago about proposed fare increases... it is relative...
Higher taxes pay for benefits that you might not see.. and at the time the CTA CEO seemed to blustering between $1 fares and a potential $2 fair for the level of service IMHOP was worth it...
This has got to be the most civilized borderline political discussion I've ever seen on the Internet.
Just a couple of points. Online shopping didn't change anything. You may not get as many catalogs with 1-800-numbers on them as you may have in 80s, but out-of-state shopping is nothing new.
The last point is that the people have not had a say in how the government spends the money they take from us in a very long time. How disappointed were conservatives with the out of control spending during Bush's tenure? They didn't vote for that, but they sure got it. Politics in general sways from left to right in the USA, but once the government has created an entitlement or some new department that does some service, it's almost impossible to get it repealed. So, the argument that "we the people" decide on what taxes get spent on is not a very good one, because you may elect the opposition later on but you won't undo what was done. That's why I oppose any new taxes in general. Trillions of dollars a year go into tax coffers all over this country, and if they can't provide the basics then it's time to look at getting rid of things that aren't needed.
BTW, I work for NASA and I wish it was canceled, along with hundreds of other things.
Just a couple of points. Online shopping didn't change anything. You may not get as many catalogs with 1-800-numbers on them as you may have in 80s, but out-of-state shopping is nothing new.
The last point is that the people have not had a say in how the government spends the money they take from us in a very long time. How disappointed were conservatives with the out of control spending during Bush's tenure? They didn't vote for that, but they sure got it. Politics in general sways from left to right in the USA, but once the government has created an entitlement or some new department that does some service, it's almost impossible to get it repealed. So, the argument that "we the people" decide on what taxes get spent on is not a very good one, because you may elect the opposition later on but you won't undo what was done. That's why I oppose any new taxes in general. Trillions of dollars a year go into tax coffers all over this country, and if they can't provide the basics then it's time to look at getting rid of things that aren't needed.
BTW, I work for NASA and I wish it was canceled, along with hundreds of other things.
so you think states have no responsibility to keep taxes low? and we have to either pay or leave the state/country? interesting point of view.
i see it differently. there should be a constant pressure from citizens to make the governments keep taxes and fees low. of course you have to make sure the necessary services are provided (and I'm quite leberal there. health care and schools for all and such). in my experience however there is a strong tendency of cities/states/countries to just increase taxes. just go to germany. while i think there are a number of services paid for in germany that are definately worth haveing a sales tax there is also a lot of waste.
my pet peeve was stuff like:
~300 bucks a year in madatory fees for access to public TV and Radio. This is collected as soon as you own a TV set or a car radio regardless if you watch or not. Even if you block access you have to pay.
~ 50 bucks a year to support local TV stations regardless if you ever watch them. they basically let 100 years old local newspapers go broke but subsidize every new TV station that some kids started. not sure what the situation is now though.
- extending the 350 bucks a year to computer owners because they can in theory watch TV vie internet
- charging Hotels 300 bucks a year for every TV in the rooms even if they haven't enabled access to puplic TV because in theory they could.
- VAT was 12% when I grew up. Now it's 19%.
-they add a fee to all CD recorders, DVD recorders (includes computer optical drives) and all CD-ROM/DVD-ROMs because you could use it to recored TV even if you use it to back up your data. they want to extend this to USB sticks.