ProtonMail Compares Apple to Mafia, Says App Was Forced Into In-App Purchases in 2018

[vipergts2207]

So, Yen wants Apple to provide distribution, promotion, hosting/CDN, dev tools, etc for his app but he wants it all for free, while monetizing the app outside the store?
Ok then, sure, no problem.

It's a two way street. What does the app store and the iPhone look like without any third party apps? It certainly wouldn't look competitive against Android. Apple is stepping out of bounds here by forcing companies to include in-app purchases in apps that previously did not have any purchases at all. If someone has an app for their car, is Apple going to start demanding 30% of the purchase price from the automaker? Where does the absurdity stop?

 

[69Mustang]

I read the article completely and I did fully understand.

If Yen didn’t like Apple’s new terms, he shouldn’t have proceeded. Like I said, noise.

If you don't mind, I'm going to keep the opinion that you didn't read or understand the article. It helps me reconcile your opinion. I have a hard time doing so otherwise... which, to be fair, is my limitation not yours.

 

[I7guy]

You either didn't read the article or didn't understand what you read. Apple has changed it's stance requiring IAP in the apps, so it's seems there was a bit more there than nothing but noise.

Seems to me the new process is better and more transparent based on what happened in the past.

 

[69Mustang]

Seems to me the new process is better and more transparent based on what happened in the past.

I agree 100%. Apple isn't going to change something for the sake of change. That's why I said it was a bit more than nothing but noise.

 

[Hurmoth]

Passive-aggressive, politically-biased commentary, followed by a call for level-headed thinking. Got it.

I was drawing a comparison to the way some people treat Apple as completely infallible, I'll grant you that maybe it is passive aggressive, but that also doesn't make the statement any less true. It also doesn't have anything to do with being politically biased, liberals did it with Obama; again, it is a comparison to the way things are in the world.

You can be level-headed and still draw a comparison to the way some are deeply ingrained in believing some entity, whether it is a company or an individual, is infallible.

Unless someone is a deeply rooted fanboy, there's no logical way to deny that Apple has different rules for different apps, services, and companies. What's the difference between Netflix, Hulu, etc. and Microsoft's game streaming service? There really isn't, yet Apple refuses to allow those services on their devices, that aren't a Mac, because there's proper app store competition there.

 

[Carnegie]

The ingratitude and sense of entitlement that some of these developers have demonstrated is striking. Apple lets you use its IP. It doesn't have to do that. You don't, or shouldn't, have an inherent right to use its IP and you shouldn't act as though you do or should. Apple should be allowed to dictate the terms under which it is willing to let you use its IP just as you should be allowed to dictate the terms under which you are willing to use that IP.

So many of the complaints from these developers amount to this: (Yes, you are helping us, but) we think you should help us more and and in the particular ways we want and, further, we think you should be required to help us more and in the particular ways we want. I put the first part in parenthesis because it's an aspect of the situation that these developers, in their complaints, often seem to not want to acknowledge.

Apple helps these developers, to include its competitors in various markets such as streaming music. It does that in part because it thinks that doing so, at least in the aggregate, helps the iOS ecosystem and those who use it - thus it helps Apple. But some of these developers, to include Apple's competitors, want Apple to have to help them even more. For example, they want Apple to not only allow them to use its IP, but allow them to directly monetize their use of Apple's IP without having to pay Apple a reasonable commission. That in itself is an unreasonable expectation, but in many circumstances Apple allows it. Then they want even more. They want to be able to use Apple's IP to direct customers to an alternate way of paying for their services so that it's even easier for them to directly monetize their use of Apple's IP without having to pay Apple a reasonable commission.

No good deed goes unpunished. That saying isn't, or course, always true. But there's a good deal of truth in it. And its apropos of this situation. Apple is somehow the bad guy because it only helps developers - to include its competitors - in certain ways, it doesn't help them in other ways which they think they are entitled to be helped in.

 

[atmenterprises]

So, Yen wants Apple to provide distribution, promotion, hosting/CDN, dev tools, etc for his app but he wants it all for free, while monetizing the app outside the store?
Ok then, sure, no problem.

Apple is the one who offered to host free apps on their store. If they didn't want an app taking advantage of this offer, they shouldn't offer it.

I am willing to have my mind changed on this though. It's certainly an interesting discussion.

 

[atmenterprises]

It's a two way street. What does the app store and the iPhone look like without any third party apps? It certainly wouldn't look competitive against Android. Apple is stepping out of bounds here by forcing companies to include in-app purchases in apps that previously did not have any purchases at all. If someone has an app for their car, is Apple going to start demanding 30% of the purchase price from the automaker? Where does the absurdity stop?

I agree with you 100%. Why is Apple forcing developers to even have an in-app purchase option if they don't have any in-app purchases? Craziness!

 

[MauiPa]

Apple doesn't seem to have a problem with Netflix, Amazon, Uber, et al monetizing their app outside of the app store unless Apple is getting a 30% cut of each Amazon, Uber, etc transaction that I'm not aware of.

True, so very true, but makes for far less feigned outrage

 

[Carnegie]

I thoroughly enjoy using Apple products, but I'm not beholden enough to any one tech company that I cannot see when they're in the wrong. Just like the Apple/Epic case, both sides are wrong for their actions.

Less fanboys and more level-headed thinkers is what we need in the world.

What's wrong with people believing that others should be allowed to decide the terms under which they are willing to let others use their IP? That's what this is about. I should, for the most part, get to decide whether I let others use my IP and the terms under which I am willing to let them use it. They should get to decide whether those terms are acceptable and accordingly whether they will use my IP under those terms. At the same time, they should get to decide whether and under what terms I'm allowed to use their IP.

I'd like everyone in the world to let me use their IP however and under whatever terms I want. But I respect their rights to not let me do that just as they should respect my rights to make decisions about such things.

 

[garrick2007]

Love both companies, not sure if I understand this fully but Apple has been putting there foot down lately, but I would probably side with proton mail, good company and helped made me feel and be more secure and I recommend it to all my clients with social accounts which are at high risk of attacks.

 

[MauiPa]

I'm just wondering, for the Coalition for amazon Fairness (just made that up), can I list my products on Amazon, but not have them sold through Amazon?

To be truthful, subscription based services have to have a way for the customer to be up and ready to go, not have a deadhead app that must be activated elsewhere, that being said, the apps can honor subscriptions that are made outside the App Store. so this whole topic is just garbage.

 

[MauiPa]

The App Store monopoly will come a tumblin down. Congress will see to it.

My question is: Why would anyone in their right mind want to get in bed with Apple in the first place? Have your livelihood dependent on their iron fisted whims and fancies?

a lot of people made rich in the process, I'm guessing

 

[MauiPa]

I agree with you 100%. Why is Apple forcing developers to even have an in-app purchase option if they don't have any in-app purchases? Craziness!

yawn! The in app purchase if for new subscribers to get up and running (the run is that any app must be useable by the consumer and if a payment is required it needs an option to be activated directly, not an exclusive activation), although the subscription can be made 100% out of the App Store. Think of it this way, you can use Amazon to find products, and use their in-app purchase option to buy the product, or you can go to the vendor's web site and order the product directly, your choice, same as in the App Store.

 

[farewelwilliams]

I thoroughly enjoy using Apple products, but I'm not beholden enough to any one tech company that I cannot see when they're in the wrong. Just like the Apple/Epic case, both sides are wrong for their actions.

Less fanboys and more level-headed thinkers is what we need in the world.

Be a developer, then try taking that stance again.

Current state of being an iOS developer is rich. We have it good. Yen is greedy and wants more. It's as simple as that.

 

[XXPP]

That's why I closed my protonmail account / Their grunts and lies are bizarre. Each store charges fees.

 

[coachgq]

I’m sure Apple will “take care” of ProtonMail! Here’s to a fair hearing anyway!

Just got to get Guido on the phone

I thoroughly enjoy using Apple products, but I'm not beholden enough to any one tech company that I cannot see when they're in the wrong. Just like the Apple/Epic case, both sides are wrong for their actions.

Less fanboys and more level-headed thinkers is what we need in the world.

Agree. We need people to recognize that when a company sets up a place for you to sell your good and services, said company deserves to be paid for it. Is that level headed enough? Does any store in this world give up shelf space for free? Why should Apple?

 

[farewelwilliams]

The App Store monopoly will come a tumblin down. Congress will see to it.

My question is: Why would anyone in their right mind want to get in bed with Apple in the first place? Have your livelihood dependent on their iron fisted whims and fancies?

Become a developer. First try making an Android app. Then move on to iOS. If you do that, you'll realize Apple taking 30% makes sense.

 

[MauiPa]

The App Store monopoly will come a tumblin down. Congress will see to it.

My question is: Why would anyone in their right mind want to get in bed with Apple in the first place? Have your livelihood dependent on their iron fisted whims and fancies?

Doubt it, but we will have to ee. 1) its not a monopoly you need virtually a lock on market share to be a monopoloy, 2) market has set fees (Google, Amazon, ......) Apple is charging market rent, 3) congress?

 

[MauiPa]

Mafia? Really? The mafia will go in your business and force you to pay. Developers are on Apple's land. Get out of their property if you don't like their rules.

And try selling your products on amazon without actually letting someone buy your products through Amazon

 

[coachgq]

Apple doesn't seem to have a problem with Netflix, Amazon, Uber, et al monetizing their app outside of the app store unless Apple is getting a 30% cut of each Amazon, Uber, etc transaction that I'm not aware of.

It's like going to Costco and buying in bulk. Those businesses you mentioned sell so much quantity that they can pay lower % and still pay a large sum to Apple.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Apple doesn't seem to have a problem with Netflix, Amazon, Uber, et al monetizing their app outside of the app store unless Apple is getting a 30% cut of each Amazon, Uber, etc transaction that I'm not aware of.

You fail to play out what would happen if Apple said to Netflix, Spotify, Uber, Amazon, Lyft, and everyone else "You must give us 30% or no app store for you". iOS Users won't get a Netflix, Spotify, Uber, Amazon, Lyft app. Android will. iOS users will flock over to Android. Then indie iOS developers will see a decline in sales and give up on iOS to move to Android.

Play out what would happen if Apple allowed third party billing. Every single app would do it as it's simple enough to include Stripe/Paypal with a few lines of code to get that 30%. How will Apple pay for the App Store, Apple Maps for third party apps, CloudKit, developer reviews, Testflight, distribution in China, etc...? App Store will be a money losing business for Apple and they'll shut it down.

Play out what would happen if Apple lowered it to 10%. You think Netflix and Spotify would finally implement IAP? I don't think so. Spotify will still complain that they're still at a disadvantage compared to Apple Music.

This is the main problem whenever someone attacks Apple for their 30%. They fail to play out the outcomes of these scenarios. Not saying Apple's way is the only way, but so far it's the safest choice to keep balance in this ecosystem.

 

[The_Gream]

Just wondering: did people not see the part were the article said proton mail mentioned payment out side the app for purchase. Pretty sure Apple has had the IAP rules since way back when that doesn’t allow developers to link, mention etc anything about outside payments in the app. Netflix didn’t want to have the added fee for its customers and they removed every link, mention etc of signing up from their iOS app. It’s not that hard to just open safari, go their their website and sign up and avoid all the IAP. Yeah, the rules can be weird, but they give you a loophole/work-around on the iOS device, just don’t mention it 😬

 

[mdriftmeyer]

Just a wild stab here:

Create a free email account or choose a paid plan | Proton

Proton Mail provides encrypted, secure email for over 100 million people and businesses. Free and paid plans available.

protonmail.com

Proton puts up the Free Mail App via the AppStore, for all Updates and then on the server side having an activated non-free tier the application gets those extras outside the AppStore and thus bypasses Apple getting a cut of the proceeds.

You are a freeloading corporation whining that your distribution global network and marketing point of sale wants a piece and you cry wolf.
[automerge]1602190227[/automerge]

Apple doesn't seem to have a problem with Netflix, Amazon, Uber, et al monetizing their app outside of the app store unless Apple is getting a 30% cut of each Amazon, Uber, etc transaction that I'm not aware of.

Each one of those companies have extended contracts long-term with Apple that extends beyond the AppStore. Look it up.

 

[Arbuthnott]

There's more likely to be action against Apple in the EU/UK/AUS than America. However, I'd hope everywhere takes action too be honest.

Yet another mail app. Outlook, gmail, Apple mail all with good features and free. This may offer a clue as to why proton’s business is not making a fortune. Gonna have to find another way to fund the Porsche, old chap!