PSA: Check your fence, report stray dogs.

[stonyc]

When chihuahuas start mauling and disfiguring people.

My parents had a miniature dachsund that 99.999% of the time was the perfect pet... except when around small children. He would literally chase them and in once case scratched a small girl in the face enough to make her bleed. She still has that scar to this day. I loved that dog, but after that incident we had to severely restrict his interaction with children. My wife never believed me until a few years ago, we took him out for a walk... she was holding the leash and a small girl walked up wanting to pet him. I took the leash from her and picked him up before the girl could get close enough to him, who was snarling and snapping in the girl's direction as I pulled him away.

Given the wrong place, wrong time... any animal can be dangerous.

 

[stonyc]

Dogs have one weapon, their mouth. Let them use it on your arm and then go for their throat. Sure, you'll hurt like hell but you'll kill the dog. Your life, or theirs. Just strikes me as strange is all. That people could be so fearful of a dog. I mean, we're not talking pit-mastif breeds that are designed to kill, we're talking your average pit, rottie, lab, whatever.

Sure, but that takes forethought and knowing what to do in such a situation. Most people I would believe don't rehearse self-defense against dogs and wouldn't be prepared for that initial assault. Given enough time, sure... fight or flight, and once flight became difficult, fight would kick in. But sometimes, that can be too late for some people.

 

[iGary]

Given the wrong place, wrong time... any animal can be dangerous.

That's an isolated incident. When we see it happening over and over and over and over again (as with pit bulls), then we probably ought to think about the sanity of having an animal that is known to be aggressive and dangerous to humans around.

Sorry, but pit bulls are wired wrong somewhere - good owner or not.

 

[atszyman]

...Actually this sounds more like a clear cut case of the OP not maintaining his property (a dog just sort of "gets dragged through" the fence which admittedly "wasn't in the best shape recently"?!) and further compounding his lack of responsibility by not providing active defense (owning a gun, or even attempting to attack the attacking dogs before neighbors show up) when his passive defense (de fence hehe) failed.

This said, a pitbull can f*ck a person up, even if the dog is 'just playing';...

Wait a minute here. I'm not saying that there aren't things I should have done better, but the fact that there were 2 relatively healthy Pit Bulls running around my neighborhood with no collars or tags is not my fault. If my dog had broken through the fence and been elsewhere I would be blaming myself completely but my dog did not just "get" out the Pits were on my property.

I am kicking myself for not getting more involved in the fight earlier but there were 2 Pit Bulls and although I love my dog I'm not going to risk my life taking on 2 Pit Bulls without any backup. Even you admit that a Pit Bull can mess you up just "playing" and I've never seen these dogs before so how do I know they're not going to try to kill me?

 

[stonyc]

That's an isolated incident. When we see it happening over and over and over and over again (as with pit bulls), then we probably ought to think about the sanity of having an animal that is known to be aggressive and dangerous to humans around.

Sorry, but pit bulls are wired wrong somewhere - good owner or not.

There are many breeds (like Terriers) that are listed as "not good with children"... should we ban all of those breeds, as well? Just look at any dog breed enthusiast site... I believe the AKC even recognizes which breeds make better family pets than others.

 

[iGary]

There are many breeds (like Terriers) that are listed as "not good with children"... should we ban all of those breeds, as well? Just look at any dog breed enthusiast site... I believe the AKC even recognizes which breeds make better family pets than others.

I think you would be hard pressed to find dozens of incidents where people were killed or permamnetly mauled by Terriers. Not so with Pit Bulls.

Look, I love animals, but I am not going to fall into this "its the owner" hype that dog lovers try and feed us all the time.

Type in Pit Bull Attack into Google...

 

[XNine]

Sure, but that takes forethought and knowing what to do in such a situation. Most people I would believe don't rehearse self-defense against dogs and wouldn't be prepared for that initial assault. Given enough time, sure... fight or flight, and once flight became difficult, fight would kick in. But sometimes, that can be too late for some people.

Very true. I've been in a fight with one dog in my life. It was one of my ex's who didn't like men. A little beagle. HE sat next to me one day and bit, I bit him back on the top of his head and he knew I was the guy.

I'm really good with dogs, perhaps that's why I'm not afraid of them?

Anyway, you're probably right, most people fear the "animal aggression" as opposed to thinking rationally about the situation. Adrenalin kicks in and most people want to run (which can be worse than standing your ground in some instances.)

 

[gekko513]

People who think Pit Bulls are just like any other breed of dogs are seriously in denial. They should be banned everywhere.

 

[cait-sith]

Making new laws won't help. Good owners won't let their dogs loose and bad owners will just ignore the laws. How could you enforce a fine against the owners of those dogs anyways? The dogs had no tags.

 

[stonyc]

I think you would be hard pressed to find dozens of incidents where people were killed or permamnetly mauled by Terriers. Not so with Pit Bulls.

Pit bulls actually are not a breed in of themselves... they are in fact composed of a wide range of breeds including Terriers (eg. Staffordshire), Boxers, Bulldogs, etc.

Look, I love animals, but I am not going to fall into this "its the owner" hype that dog lovers try and feed us all the time.

Neither am I.

People who think Pit Bulls are just like any other breed of dogs are seriously in denial. They should be banned everywhere.

The CDC in fact lists the "pit bull" as a "high risk" for biting. They also however list the Rottweiller and German Shepherd right up there with the "pit bull". Should we ban Rottweilers and German Shepherds too? How about we just ban all breeds that are in the Top 10 while we're at it.

While I recognize that certain breeds are statistically a higher risk to bite/maim/kill people it begs the question... why? Saying "just because" or "they're different" is not good enough for me. How are they different? Is it genetics? Do certain breeds suffer more abuse than others?

I would point people out to this study (the same that concluded "pit bulls", Rotts and German Shepherds as "high risk"): ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Publications/mmwr/wk/mm4621.pdf. Note:

Although some breeds were disproportionately represented in the fatal attacks described in this report, the representation of breeds changes over time (Table 1). As a result, targeting a specific breed may be unproductive; a more effective approach may be to target chronically irresponsible dog owners (9 ).

Though there may be some truth to the notion that certain breeds are more "dangerous" than others, irresponsible owners can exacerbate an already volatile situation. Similarly, responsible owners with proper training and socialization can have a positive effect on their dogs and their interaction with others. That said, I would be interested in a study that examined the bite statistics of dogs owned by perceived "responsible" owners. That would be telling in terms of fleshing out genetic differences between dog biting predisposition.

 

[iGary]

Pit bulls actually are not a breed in of themselves... they are in fact composed of a wide range of breeds including Terriers (eg. Staffordshire), Boxers, Bulldogs, etc.

Then neither are most purebreds are they - they all come froma mix of different animals.

While I recognize that certain breeds are statistically a higher risk to bite/maim/kill people it begs the question... why? Saying "just because" or "they're different" is not good enough for me. How are they different? Is it genetics? Do certain breeds suffer more abuse than others?

This is pretty much the same as guns don't kill people, people kill people argument, isn't it?

Look I respect your opinion and I am no more in favor of the government stepping in to take care of us as the next guy, but how many people have to get hurt, permanently mauled or killed before we figure out what is wrong with the breed? Why has the rst of the world decided that they are dangerous and done something about it while we sit and let people and people's pets get killed?

What exactly does one do to an animal to make it a killer - could I duplicate the results with a yellow lab?

 

[stonyc]

Then neither are most purebreds are they - they all come froma mix of different animals.

Sorry, I should have said that pit bulls themselves are not an AKC recognized breed. Semantics, blah.

This is pretty much the same as guns don't kill people, people kill people argument, isn't it?

I'm not sure, I'm willing to concede that some breeds are less "domesticable" and more potentially more volatile than other breeds. Additionally, there are certain people who should not have access to these breeds under any circumstances. But that doesn't mean we should disallow the right owner, under the right circumstances, to have the dog that they choose.

Look I respect your opinion and I am no more in favor of the government stepping in to take care of us as the next guy, but how many people have to get hurt, permanently mauled or killed before we figure out what is wrong with the breed? Why has the rst of the world decided that they are dangerous and done something about it while we sit and let people and people's pets get killed?

I'm not sure that the rest of the world, as you say, has it right... they could. Maybe we should wipe our hands clean of pit bulls forever. But then, as someone else asked earlier, where do you draw the line? Do we get rid of Rotts? What about Doberman Pinschers? And German Shepherds?

Granted, pit bulls are at the top of the heap when it comes to risk of biting... but who's next after they're gone? Where do we stop?

What exactly does one do to an animal to make it a killer - could I duplicate the results with a yellow lab?

Given the right motivation, yep. Subject any breed, even what's considered by many to be the most family and child-friendly breed out there (the Newfoundland), to enough abuse and neglect that it will become unstable and dangerous not only to other dogs but to people as well.

 

[mactastic]

The crux of the problem is that aggressive people are drawn to the breeds that are more easily turned into something harmful. IOW, the inherent problems in breeds that are deemed 'dangerous' are magnified by a bad owner, and mitigated by a responsible owner. There really isn't a one-size-fits-all solution here. Banning pit bulls won't solve the problem because the people who are drawn to pits right now will simply start breeding aggressive rots, or dobermans, or some other dog that has the ability to develop good fighting instincts.

That isn't to say that all problems can be solved with good owners, there will always be dogs that snap and have to be put down. But IMHO, far to many people get dogs without realizing that they are the ones who have to do most of the work, a dog is a piece of clay waiting to be molded by a dominant alpha. With careful attention and training, even the most dangerous breeds are loving family dogs, but even so you need to be responsible about keeping them.

I know dogs who are fine off-leash all the time, but I also know people who wish their dogs were fine off-leash so they just let them regardless of whether that dog has proven it's capable of handling it.

And this isn't even to get into the whole dog-wolf hybrid craziness...

 

[Timepass]

Well, my Golden is 108 lbs, and I'm not kidding. He's a heavy dog, and he's a big baby unless he sees his arch-nemesis walking in the complex or someone tries to enter the apartment. IT's funny how many people are scared of him (little kids LOVE him). but people just have to remember one thing. Dogs have one weapon, their mouth. Let them use it on your arm and then go for their throat. Sure, you'll hurt like hell but you'll kill the dog. Your life, or theirs. Just strikes me as strange is all. That people could be so fearful of a dog. I mean, we're not talking pit-mastif breeds that are designed to kill, we're talking your average pit, rottie, lab, whatever.

There is one problem what that plan. That is assuming they stay on your arm. A 75lb dog and easily take down a 200lb+ man. it all in the law of physic. First off most of the is going to be hozintal and they move the center of mass of the guy to far either dircition and the guy done for. I know they can jump hi enough to get a 6ft though. Chances are the first few hits are going to be in the arms but they are going to pull the person off balance at some point in time and when the person hit the ground it over.

You to rememeber dogs are faster than humans. Can run longer than humans. and are built to take you down.

Yeah I about 160 and my 75 lb lab has taken me down a few times. Few times I was in the back yard watching her and she comes running and runs into me. 75lb moving at that speed is going to take you down. The hit itself threw me off balance enough where my hands hit the ground. The proceeded by me getting her tring to lick me to death (she is a very loving dog). But by the my hand hit the ground and start pushing back up she had aldready jump on me and push me over on my side and start lickng me. Now she will let me up and I coudl jsut push her away she not going to fight back. Now if she was attacking I would of been on the ground at her level where she has a huge adatage over me. and she can keep me down there if she really wanted to.


Pit bulls dogs like that are stronger and faster than my realitily small lab. They can take a grown man down.

It all in the physcal and how the blows land. They are strong enough to pull a guy down.

 

[mactastic]

And make no mistake, an attacking dog isn't going to go for your arm -- it'll go for your throat, where one bite can kill you.

 

[m6747]

Good point. I could see steeper licensing fees for larger breeds, possibly even periodic inspections to verify non-aggressiveness and containment (paid for by steeper licensing fees).

So you think a lab is a big problem? Seriously alot of big dogs are nicer than smaller ones. I see your point about big dogs can do more harm but this wouldn't be fair for large dog owners with a lab, golden retiriver, etc.

 

[Leareth]

I have met a number of the aggressive breeds who were extremely well behaved and gentle as a kitten as well I have met friendly breed individual whos were the meanest most vicious dogs I have ever seen. My cousin used to train army sentry dogs and while they are aggressive like hell I would not be afraid of one walking down my street, their training is very specific.
One of the frou frou girls in my neighbourhood had one of those purse chihuahuas, the dog kept biting her fingers, just little pinpricks till she got a severe infection and nearly lost her hand, as it stands she is missing three of her fingernails permanentely ( i guess no more $300 manicures). So even a little tiny dog can be dangerous.

I have read in a medical journal that the reason pitbull,dobermans, rotties and the other various agressive breeds are so agressive is in part due to their tail and ear being docked and cropped thereby limiting their ability to communicate very well in subtle changes.

I have also read that more people die each year from deer attacks than from all other wild animal and domenstic dog attacks combined, does that mean I should shoot every deer that comes in my backyard cause its dangeours ?

And damnit dog owner if you are in an area with lots of people,children and other dogs put your animal on a leash even if it is a off leash area.
and clean up the dog poop.

 

[gekko513]

I have also read that more people die each year from deer attacks than from all other wild animal and domenstic dog attacks combined, does that mean I should shoot every deer that comes in my backyard cause its dangeours ?

You sure that wasn't car accidents with a deer involved?

I've heard similar stories about the elk being the most dangerous animal in Norway, but that's because of the car accidents caused by people driving too carelessly in elk territory. It hardly makes the elk an aggressive animal.

 

[mactastic]

Yeah, few things are more infuriating than watching someone stand there pretending not to notice that their dog is taking a crap on someone's lawn.

 

[Leareth]

You sure that wasn't car accidents with a deer involved?

nope this is where the bucks attack stupid hunters who cover themselves with deer lure, or who keep making deer calls when the deer is behind them.
It kind of funny the number of people who come into the ER during hunting season with bloody scalps and brusied backs from deer attacks.

Now moose attack would not be funny, neither is the shot bird that falls on other hunters head and gives him a concussion or worse breaks neck .

One more dog story : I was once cornered by a pitbull that was trained as a guard dog, who got out of yard, no collar/ID/chip and was DEAF !, how is the owner suppossed to call the dog off? I was not the first incident where the dog was too aggressive to people so the pound took him away and put him down.

 

[atszyman]

So you think a lab is a big problem? Seriously alot of big dogs are nicer than smaller ones. I see your point about big dogs can do more harm but this wouldn't be fair for large dog owners with a lab, golden retiriver, etc.

I'm still not absolutely certain that legislation is necessary.

I had originally intended this thread to be a reminder to dog owners to check whatever they use to keep their dog contained to make sure that it is secure and that the "old stray" that you see wandering the neighborhood may not be so harmless.

There were a number of things that could have been done to avoid what happened to my dog. I could've checked the fence a day/week/month ago and realized that re-enforcement was needed, but my dog never even tries to get out (unless a stray happens to wander by, and usually then there is a lot of pacing and barking before anyone tries to go under the fence). One of the neighbors who stopped said the Pits were camped under the tree in her yard and she didn't call Animal Control since they seemed harmless.

That doesn't even begin to start on the original owner for the Pits, who I doubt will ever be found due to the lack of tags and collars.

It drives me nuts to think that I could've so easily done something that would have prevented this from happening so I thought I would try to help others on the forum to remember that things like this can happen and to check the things in their control so that they do not have to go through what my family and dog have.

 

[mactastic]

FWIW, I did a perimeter check of my dog's fence yesterday. Thankfully, all is well as his fence is now anchored securely to the ground by the grass growing up around it. It's actually more secure now than it was when I put it up 18 months ago.

Actually my big worry where I am is that my dog will tangle with a pack of coyotes. His fence is 6' tall though, so I'm pretty confident that a 'yote isn't going to try to get over that unless they're real hungry -- and since there are plenty of rabbits and squirrels running around, I doubt the 'yotes are starving right now. My other concern would be a mountain lion... but there's little I could do to stop a big cat.

 

[gekko513]

I'm not an expert on Pit Bulls, but the reason I've read and heard from several media sources over the years as to why I think they should be banned all over the world, is that it's well enough documented that Pit Bulls that are treated normally and are otherwise well-behaved, can snap out of the blue and attack other dogs, people or even their own owners, and that this happens much more often than with other dog breeds.

Even the apparently pro Pit Bull article on wikipedia on the breed states that fatalities by Pit Bull attacks are 4 times more frequent than by the next race, Rottweilers. Then they proceed to downplay the importance of that statistic.

 

[mactastic]

Even the apparently pro Pit Bull article on wikipedia on the breed states that fatalities by Pit Bull attacks are 4 times more frequent than by the next race, Rottweilers. Then they proceed to downplay the importance of that statistic.

First, I'm not claiming that pit bulls are not more prone to "snapping" than other dogs; but before we accept the claim that pits are 4 times more likely to attack than the next nearest breed, we need to remove the owner variable from the equation. As I've stated before, people who intentionally seek out the so-called "dangerous" dogs are far more likely to be irresponsible in raising and keeping these dogs. Thus, by that fact alone you would expect to see a greater number of these dogs involved in attacks, would you not?

People seeking a dog to guard their meth lab aren't going to go get a poodle now, are they?

 

[cait-sith]

We can make all the laws we want, the problematic owners will just ignore them. Perhaps making stiffer penalties for owners might help -- if your dog assaults someone, you are liable for assault and could go to prison. Then again, some places have very stiff penalities for crimes yet they are still committed all the time.

But I still don't understand this "If we outlaw one thing, we're going to outlaw everything!" attitude. Why does everything have to be so absolute? It really boils down to where personal freedom and personal responsibility collide. I don't think anyone has the freedom to hurt anyone else, directly or through gross negligence.