Psystar to Change Tactics and Sell Mac OS X-Ready Computers?

[jragosta]

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/12/01/psystar_agrees_to_pay_apple_1_3m_in_settlement.html

Looks like I was right. Apple didn't agree to let Psystar continue to sell infringing products.

Rather, Apple's position is "we'll agree not to go after ADDITIONAL charges that Alsup hasn't already ruled on" - which is pretty reasonable since there's no way they'll even get what they're already owed.

 

[pdjudd]

Looks like I was right. Apple didn't agree to let Psystar continue to sell infringing products.

That had no chance whatsoever of happening.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

2. That's not why they added the chip (assuming you are referring to EFI). They did it because BIOS is an ancient and outdated system. And they are not "calling it different hardware" in the sense you mean - they aren't saying "since it's different we will only support it and not other PCs." They don't have to say that, because they need not justify not supporting other PCs. They simply support the boxes they sell. They don't "differentiate Macs from normal PCs" based on lack of BIOS; they differentiate it by pointing out that only Macs are licensed to run Mac OS X. No one is "fooled."

3. What arrogance in their advertising? Is it arrogant to take advantages of real and perceived weaknesses in one's competition? Is it arrogant to compare oneself favorably to one's competition? I should think not. That's how all business is done. MS does the same thing ("Apple tax! Apple tax! Choice! Choice!") BMW does the same thing. Kelloggs does the same thing.

4. It's not your money, so you don't get to decide how much is "plenty." And the only reason they make money on other things is because they had the base source of income from Mac OS machines to pay for their R&D in these other areas. You presumably have two legs. One is plenty. Please cut one off and give it to me, because I have some fundamental right to your leg.

Your arguments are silly.

2. Quite clearly you are fooled. There are PCs with EFI yet Apple does not support these. Apple does not say "Buy our Apple PC" they say "Buy our Mac".

3. The arrogance of continually stereotyping PCs and exaggerating their defects. In fact in my country such practices are illegal, i.e. belittling a competitor's product to make your own look better. MS never used Apple Tax in their adverts, it was heavily reported in blogs, and when they did mention Macs it was in answer to Apple's own advertising. Their current campaigns do not mention Macs at all.

4. I have said that its Apple's right to use their OS as they please, but I am clearly within my rights to suggest alternate uses, and to offer my opinions on what I think of their business practices. These boards would be empty if nobody did that. Its the fact that I have dared to criticise them on a board where the almighty Apple are worshipped daily that makes my opinion seem outlandish to you. Fact is, I like my Macbook and my iBook, but they don't make me like my PCs any less, or make me feel the need to switch 100% to Mac, or brown nose a company who just want my money.

 

[Consultant]

Jesus, I didn't even WANT to compare them. You're debating something that I'm not. I think you're just confused by what I posted. I don't actually want to buy windows, a mac mini, or that crappy dell mini "thing".

By an affordable headless mac, I did not mean the mini, I was hoping for an affordable tower.

If PsyStar can sell computers (overclocked i7, baby!) that run mac software and hit that sweet spot missing in Apple's line, I would consider it over a $2200 iMac or $3500 tower.

just to play devil's advocate here- I'd compare psystar to selling cars that have the same mechanical parts and performance (intel chips are basically the same), they are just selling them with a cheaper corolla frame and without the BMW badge on the outside.

But they keep the plush interior of the luxury BMW (Mac OS X), then sell the whole thing at the cost of a toyota! it drives as fast as a BMW, feels like BMW on the inside, but on the outside it looks like an economy car, and costs similar to an economy car.

Analogies are fun, let's do more!

p.s.- I don't care about licensing, I just want a cheaper mac! :b

You obviously don't know anything about distribution of R&D cost.
With Apple, the cost goes to the hardware, with inexpensive software, given the condition you buy both.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

But Windows at it's core is the same product wether its's the Basic or Ultimate. The only differentiator is the features that are unlocked by your product key. The disc you get has the same software bit by bit reguarldess of the edition. The whole edition thing is only there because of Microsoft's business model of selling licenses. Apple does not do this - they sell the complete package. MS sells the complete package as "Ultimate" not "Home Premium" The whole editions thing is just MS trying to get businesses and entusiasts to pay more money because MS can do that.

And Apple are able to offer a one solution fits all because they charge high prices for hardware.

 

[Consultant]

It always makes me laugh when you try to claim that only the Ultimate edition of Windows is equivalent to OSX. Not only that, you are pricing a second hand Mac against a copy of Windows that isn't pre-installed. With that Mac Mini you forgot to include the price of an adapter to connect to a monitor, the price of an Apple keyboard (because OSX does not properly support PC keyboards) and a mouse. Then it's necessary to consider the limited availability of refurbished items. Mac Minis are especially rare and may be an older model if the line has just been refreshed.

Does the ultimate windows box come with a keyboard mouse?

There is nothing wrong with avoiding direct competition, but there is everything wrong with Apple and its fans talking about them as if they are God's gift to computing. Until Apple can support a wider range of hardware Windows will always have advantages in certain areas.

There is nothing new about tying an OS to hardware, what is new is tying an OS to hardware that is not unique to that OS. The Commodore Amiga was unique hardware, Macs are not. Macs are PCs.

I am not trying to take away your choice at all, I am trying to argue the case for Apple providing more choice, and more importantly trying to stop their sheer arrogance.

You should read up on computer history. Without Apple / Steve Jobs there won't be:

Personal computer
GUI
Mouse
USB
Wifi
Portable digital music player that's easy to use
Phone that doesn't need 100 page manual

 

[cmaier]

2. Quite clearly you are fooled. There are PCs with EFI yet Apple does not support these. Apple does not say "Buy our Apple PC" they say "Buy our Mac".

3. The arrogance of continually stereotyping PCs and exaggerating their defects. In fact in my country such practices are illegal, i.e. belittling a competitor's product to make your own look better. MS never used Apple Tax in their adverts, it was heavily reported in blogs, and when they did mention Macs it was in answer to Apple's own advertising. Their current campaigns do not mention Macs at all.

4. I have said that its Apple's right to use their OS as they please, but I am clearly within my rights to suggest alternate uses, and to offer my opinions on what I think of their business practices. These boards would be empty if nobody did that. Its the fact that I have dared to criticise them on a board where the almighty Apple are worshipped daily that makes my opinion seem outlandish to you. Fact is, I like my Macbook and my iBook, but they don't make me like my PCs any less, or make me feel the need to switch 100% to Mac, or brown nose a company who just want my money.

2. Exactly. My point was that they aren't claiming that EFI is at all relevant - they aren't using EFI as an excuse. They simply say "buy a Mac if you want Mac OS X."

3. Their CURRENT ads don't mention macs, but they had a long stream of "laptop hunter" ads that dissed on Macs, quite recently. Your country has many limits on free speech (if it's england. if not, i apologize).

4. yes, you are free to say what you want. But you are casting aspersions and making invalid claims, and we are free to respond.

 

[bikertwin]

Instead of raking in millions on the expensive crap PC's they sell to their loyal fools.

That would be "in addition to", not "instead".

 

[DMann]

Looks like I was right. Apple didn't agree to let Psystar continue to sell infringing products.

Rather, Apple's position is "we'll agree not to go after ADDITIONAL charges that Alsup hasn't already ruled on" - which is pretty reasonable since there's no way they'll even get what they're already owed.

Bravo!

You presumably have two legs. One is plenty. Please cut one off and give it to me, because I have some fundamental right to your leg.

But I can still walk on my one leg, how dare you call me crippled!

Bottom line:

OS X = full featured, across the board.

Windows 7 Starter, Home Premium, Professional = compromised.

A consumer who purchased Home Premium later decides to start-up a small business. He soon realizes that Home Premium is missing necessary networking features, etc., and is now forced to shell-out for another version.

Life happens - M$ is there for you.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

Does the ultimate windows box come with a keyboard mouse?



You should read up on computer history. Without Apple / Steve Jobs there won't be:

Personal computer
GUI
Mouse
USB
Wifi
Portable digital music player that's easy to use
Phone that doesn't need 100 page manual

This is the sort of nonsense that is why I post here. All those things are the result of the efforts of numerous people, to attribute them all to Apple is to overemphasise their importance in the same way a politician exaggerates his exploits in the interests of getting elected.

 

[NSMonkey]

Bollocks. Its not crippled if the feature is unnecessary. There are different versions of Windows for different segments of the market. Just because OSX comes in a one package for all version does not mean that all OSes should. IN fact, should we argue that OSX is crippled because it doesn't include server components? There's a server version of OSX, why doesn't the desktop version come with email and a user database?

By that logic every version of Windows except for Server 2008 Datacenter should be considered "crippled".

There is nothing wrong with avoiding direct competition, but there is everything wrong with Apple and its fans talking about them as if they are God's gift to computing. Until Apple can support a wider range of hardware Windows will always have advantages in certain areas.

What exactly are these "advantages in certain areas" and how do they affect anyone who, like myself, is perfectly happy with their Mac? It seems like you're saying that I shouldn't be happy with a Mac but you can't explain why. It also seems to really bother you, on a personal level, that people like Apple products. Strange.

There is nothing new about tying an OS to hardware, what is new is tying an OS to hardware that is not unique to that OS. The Commodore Amiga was unique hardware, Macs are not. Macs are PCs.

I am not trying to take away your choice at all, I am trying to argue the case for Apple providing more choice, and more importantly trying to stop their sheer arrogance.

There is nothing new about tying an OS to hardware that is not "unique to that OS". See the XBox or any of the many proprietary networking and security appliances (which usually run some form of BSD on x86 hardware) for examples.

Instead of raking in millions on the expensive crap PC's they sell to their loyal fools.

Please, enough with the Dell-bashing already.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

2. Exactly. My point was that they aren't claiming that EFI is at all relevant - they aren't using EFI as an excuse. They simply say "buy a Mac if you want Mac OS X."

3. Their CURRENT ads don't mention macs, but they had a long stream of "laptop hunter" ads that dissed on Macs, quite recently. Your country has many limits on free speech (if it's england. if not, i apologize).

4. yes, you are free to say what you want. But you are casting aspersions and making invalid claims, and we are free to respond.

2. No they are quite clearly trying to differentiate Macs as a different beast from PCs.

3. As I said, the laptop hunter adverts mentioned Apple only because Apple started it first. And please don't bring free speech into this. Those laws are there to prevent adverts becoming slagging contests as happened with the Apple/MS adverts. We prefer to see people sell the merits of their own products rather than smear their competitors.

4. I have not made a single invalid claim and if you think I am casting aspersions I assure you that there have been many, many worse posts than mine that you have probably whole heartedly agreed with.

By that logic every version of Windows except for Server 2008 Datacenter should be considered "crippled".


What exactly are these "advantages in certain areas" and how do they affect anyone who, like myself, is perfectly happy with their Mac? It seems like you're saying that I shouldn't be happy with a Mac but you can't explain why. It also seems to really bother you, on a personal level, that people like Apple products. Strange.


There is nothing new about tying an OS to hardware that is not "unique to that OS". See the XBox or any of the many proprietary networking and security appliances (which usually run some form of BSD on x86 hardware) for examples.

That is my point. You can't say an OS is "crippled" because it lacks features when there are so many versions of that OS.

The advantages in certain areas are that you can choose your hardware, games, wider range of software. Being happy with your Mac is not why I post here, I post because you are not simply content to use your Mac and get on with it, you feel the need to belittle other products and spread FUD. Please read all my posts, its bad practice to ask a question I have already answered. Having said this I will not respond to your point about consoles.

 

[Consultant]

This is the sort of nonsense that is why I post here. All those things are the result of the efforts of numerous people, to attribute them all to Apple is to overemphasise their importance in the same way a politician exaggerates his exploits in the interests of getting elected.

Apple popularized the products. Without Apple those things would not have taken off.

So you are saying you are posting here just to troll?

 

[DMann]

I love people who try and make analogies of two completely different technologies and industries.

Little do most people know, most car equipment is manufactured or designed by the same outsourced company...

Case in point

YAMAHA developed the 2ZZ-GE engine for TOYOTA...

This engine is used in the TOYOTA Celica, Matrix, and Corolla-S, PONTIAC Vibe, and LOTUS Elise and Exige.

Most of the fuel injection systems are developed by DENSO and a lot of the wheels of the higher end cars by Rays Engineering or BBS.

Your transmission analogy simply will not work here. Oh and if I wanted I could put any engine in any car without fearing being sued. Example, my friend has a 5.0 Ford Powered Miata that runs 10's. I own an MR2 with a 2ZZ from a Lotus Elise. Bugs powered by Porsche engines... you see where I am going with this?

Case in point.

Whether it be automobiles or computer OSs, intellectual property rights, as pointed out by jragosta, are the issue here.

The Audi Quattro and Mercedes-Benz 4Matic transmissions are trademarked, and cannot legally be built into a car while bearing and advertising the trademarked logo.

OS X is trademarked in a similar fashion, and is protected as intellectual property.

Perhaps Psystar can get around this conflict by using LINUX instead, since, by your logic, it is a a variant of UNIX, which happens to be the foundation of OS X.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

Apple popularized the products. Without Apple those things would not have taken off.

So you are saying you are posting here just to troll?

The myth propagated by Apple fans is that those products were popularised by Apple. How does a 5% marketshare equate to popularising a technology? If Apple did not exist these things would have become popular simply due to their usefulness.

And yeah that must be it, I criticise Apple and their fans blind love for them, therefore I am a troll.

I wasn't aware that owning and liking an Apple product meant I was supposed to accept their every practise as being the one true way.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Why wont they die!?

 

[cmaier]

2. No they are quite clearly trying to differentiate Macs as a different beast from PCs.

3. As I said, the laptop hunter adverts mentioned Apple only because Apple started it first. And please don't bring free speech into this. Those laws are there to prevent adverts becoming slagging contests as happened with the Apple/MS adverts. We prefer to see people sell the merits of their own products rather than smear their competitors.

4. I have not made a single invalid claim and if you think I am casting aspersions I assure you that there have been many, many worse posts than mine that you have probably whole heartedly agreed with.

2. Example? All the ads I see deal with OS features and differentiating Mac OS from Windows.

3. I bring free speech into it because it's a fundamental issue - in the U.S., we allow companies to "slag" away because we believe even in commercial free speech as long as it isn't misleading to customers. Puffery is not considered misleading if people would understand it to be puffery, and, certainly, honest comparisons between competitors are fine. This stems from the U.S. constitution's guarantee of free speech. Obviously, in England for example, their are many more limitations on free speech (e.g. much stricter liable rules, rules involving discussion of the monarchy, etc.) that we don't have here, and this fundamental difference in expectations is part of the reason people in the U.S. don't necessarily see "arrogance" - difference in political system and life experience does not necessarily make someone a "fanboy," which is what you've accused people who disagree with you as being.

4. That's your opinion. But we're still entitled to post our disagreement with you.

 

[Consultant]

The myth propagated by Apple fans is that those products were popularised by Apple. How does a 5% marketshare equate to popularising a technology? If Apple did not exist these things would have become popular simply due to their usefulness.

And yeah that must be it, I criticise Apple and their fans blind love for them, therefore I am a troll.

Microsoft used anti-competitive practices to "win" their market share. Both US and European government found Microsoft to be GUILTY of anti-competitive practices.

Just because you don't know the history doesn't mean it's not true.

 

[NSMonkey]

The advantages in certain areas are that you can choose your hardware, games, wider range of software. Being happy with your Mac is not why I post here, I post because you are not simply content to use your Mac and get on with it, you feel the need to belittle other products and spread FUD. Please read all my posts, its bad practice to ask a question I have already answered. Having said this I will not respond to your point about consoles.

Actually, most of the software I really care about is only available for OS X. And I'll take your "I will not respond" to mean "I don't have a point". Oh, and please go read all of my posts. I'm sure you will then agree with my opinions.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

Microsoft used anti-competitive practices to "win" their market share. Both US and European government found Microsoft to be GUILTY of anti-competitive practices.

Just because you don't know the history doesn't mean it's not true.

They found them guilty of anti competitive practices AFTER they gained their marketshare.

 

[MorphingDragon]

3. I bring free speech into it because it's a fundamental issue - in the U.S., we allow companies to "slag" away because we believe even in commercial free speech as long as it isn't misleading to customers. Puffery is not considered misleading if people would understand it to be puffery, and, certainly, honest comparisons between competitors are fine. This stems from the U.S. constitution's guarantee of free speech. Obviously, in England for example, their are many more limitations on free speech (e.g. much stricter liable rules, rules involving discussion of the monarchy, etc.) that we don't have here, and this fundamental difference in expectations is part of the reason people in the U.S. don't necessarily see "arrogance" - difference in political system and life experience does not necessarily make someone a "fanboy," which is what you've accused people who disagree with you as being.

Ha! You've got to be kidding, America has less free speech than a lot of countries. Its illegal here to make a company/person shut up through the courts for example.

Don't judge a country you've never been too man...

 

[NSMonkey]

And yeah that must be it, I criticise Apple and their fans blind love for them, therefore I am a troll.

Yes, that statement makes you a troll. I think it's the "fans blind love" part that gives it away.

 

[cmaier]

Ha! You've got to be kidding. America has less free speech than a lot of countries. At least I can go out on the street and swear my head off without being ticketed. In a lot of "Socialist" countries, you can advertise anything as long as it isn't market extortion and in good taste.

Don't judge a country you've never been too man...

1) I was comparing two countries - England and the U.S. My points are valid with respect to those two countries.

2) I've been to England

3) In the U.S. you are entitled to swear your head off and you cannot be ticketed FOR WHAT YOU SAY. You may be ticketed for being a nuisance (in the legal sense - I don't mean "nuisance" in the normal vernacular), but you can never be penalized by the government for the content of your speech.

4) "Socialism" is not the same thing as communism or dictatorship, so I don't understand your reference to socialism.

5) In a dictatorship, you certainly do not have freer speech than in the U.S.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

2. Example? All the ads I see deal with OS features and differentiating Mac OS from Windows.

3. I bring free speech into it because it's a fundamental issue - in the U.S., we allow companies to "slag" away because we believe even in commercial free speech as long as it isn't misleading to customers. Puffery is not considered misleading if people would understand it to be puffery, and, certainly, honest comparisons between competitors are fine. This stems from the U.S. constitution's guarantee of free speech. Obviously, in England for example, their are many more limitations on free speech (e.g. much stricter liable rules, rules involving discussion of the monarchy, etc.) that we don't have here, and this fundamental difference in expectations is part of the reason people in the U.S. don't necessarily see "arrogance" - difference in political system and life experience does not necessarily make someone a "fanboy," which is what you've accused people who disagree with you as being.

4. That's your opinion. But we're still entitled to post our disagreement with you.

2. EVERY SINGLE ADVERT. "I'm a Mac". "And I'm a PC".

3. I understand its puffery too, doesn't mean I like to see it. I am sure you have free speech limitations too, I doubt anyone could use a racial slur against Obama and get away with it. There is a fine line between free speech and insults.

4. You can post your disagreement, but mostly I just see the usual misinformation propagated to belittle other methods of doing things.

Yes, that statement makes you a troll. I think it's the "fans blind love" part that gives it away.

Well unfortunately I can't make a post to cover every single fan. There are fans who enjoy Apple products and get on merrily with their lives. Then there are the fans who can't stand to admit that Microsoft might do something right once in a while. Or admit that perhaps there might be some faults with the iPhone. Those are the fans I am referring to.

And in fact as I read the post again it was quite clear that its the blind love I am against not the fans. You seem eager to read things into my posts that aren't there.

 

[cmaier]

2. EVERY SINGLE ADVERT. "I'm a Mac". "And I'm a PC".

3. I understand its puffery too, doesn't mean I like to see it. I am sure you have free speech limitations too, I doubt anyone could use a racial slur against Obama and get away with it. There is a fine line between free speech and insults.

4. You can post your disagreement, but mostly I just see the usual misinformation propagated to belittle other methods of doing things.

2. And what do they COMPARE in those ads? It's always a diss on Vista or Windows, not on PC hardware.

3. Of course you can get away with a racial slur about Obama. You can't be fined or jailed for doing it. People might not like you, but the government can't do anything about it. And of course their are limitations (you can't incite violence, you can't threaten someone, you can't liable someone, you can't yell "fire" in a crowded room, etc.) but there are fewer limitations than in the U.K., is all. Much like London has cameras pointed at everyone in public places, there are certain cultural differences. So where you see "Mac OS is less crashy than Windows" as "arrogance," in the U.S. most people don't, because they're used to such ads.

4. I am not misinforming about anything.