Pushing the boulder up hill

[repairedCheese]

Another way social media is bad

Social media like Twitter, Facebook, etc., has been in the news this week for obvious reasons due to the political unrest in the United Stat...

tenfourfox.blogspot.com

So, having just read the latest TenFourFox blog post, it really made me think. For me, this is pure retro computing, a thing I don't actually need, but something I love to do because of the challenge of it all. But for some, they still want these old systems to interact with the internet like it's the year 2000. Which, is hard as the demands of getting onto the internet have grown so much in that time.

But it's worse than that. The first 1Ghz PowerPC Mac was introduced in 2002, and the Intel transition was announced in 2005. What's worse is that 1Ghz + systems didn't become standard until mid 2003. The Powerbook line saw this happen slightly slower, but at the end of the day, Apple had clearly made PPC Macs mostly into second class citizens by 2007. But why shouldn't they have? They had a new target.

Having finally gotten to test out my G4 MDD in Linux, I now know just the kind of power I've been missing out on. This system has frankly been hampered with Mac OS 10.5, particularly. I rarely used it as it was such a pain, but app support split between 10.5 and 10.4 so what was I to do? Of course, Linux isn't a fix, as particularly, 32-bit PPC Ubuntu support is going away in April. Even if it wasn't, it'd become a 2nd class citizen some years ago. Sure, there are other options, and I could just leave it as it is, but that's not the point. The point is that the largest supporter of these systems gave up some time ago. Heck, I've even seen an article about intentions to possibly remove PowerPC code from the Linux kernel.

In keeping these and older systems running, and especially interacting with the modern internet, we are fighting the tide. Unlike older 90's and 80's systems, the G3, G4, and G5 systems all came with the promise of internet access. That, I believe, is where the struggle really is. Most older computers can be used the way they had been 30 years ago, with no trouble, because nothing involving using them has changed. That's not the case with the internet. It very much has changed.

And yet, I don't think it's bad to fight the tide. In doing so, it's helping to keep the original purpose of quite a few of these machines alive. Was not the clamshell iBook claim to fame its wifi? Sure, that was on an 800x600 screen, but that didn't matter, they were cool in a world of black Dells Latitudes and IBM Thinkpads. By struggling to keep these old computers doing the things they were made to, even if we have to resort to software never intended to do so, we're keeping this a living history. And as far as I'm concerned, a living history is the best kind of history there is.

 

[m1maverick]

I agree with much of what he wrote however the genie is out of the bottle and it's not going back in. For me the Internet has lost a lot of the appeal it once had. I've never been a fan of the big social media (I don't use Facebook or Twitter). I tend to participate on forums targeting my special interests (such as Mac computers). These sites tend to be a little better when it comes to older systems but they can be troublesome to use. Maybe it's nostalgia but today's Internet is not as pleasurable to use as it was 20 years ago.

 

[retta283]

Certainly a good point is made in this article about how chunky and bloated these social media sites are purely from a performance perspective, which makes them much harder on our hardware. I have no problems browsing traditional forums or other sites, but social media sites are dreadful. I personally don't use them so I don't have to deal with the uphill battle in this way.

I will agree strongly with the post above me. Social media's big flaw is that there's no central purpose of the platforms. So what you're left with is a cesspit of anger and hate with tiny circles of good trapped in the middle of the flaming. Forums like this one generally have a purpose or interest, which means people are coming here with something in common and some of the same goals.

I was on forums constantly between 1999-2006, and those were by and far the best years for the internet in my opinion. There was a sense of community on the sites I stuck around for, we all were there for the same thing and became familiar with each other to a point where the site was quite neighborly. Sure, there were trolls and some fights did break out, but the moderator's patience for this was next to none so it didn't blow out. Forums, newsgroups, game chat, IM chat services, all far superior to the prevalent forms of communication on the internet.

It is quite hard to live on the internet like it's 2000 though, even the remaining popular forum sites have a changed atmosphere. I was registered here in the 2000s too, and ever since the iPhone came out it's changed more and more which caused me to leave. The cranking of the temperature on this site (at least to me) in the last months is hastening a second departure, but I will say that if this site were only the iPod board, PPC Macs, and the upcoming Early Intel Macs, it would be much much closer to what I view a good forum to be. There are some forums that remain in their old ways and are still quite pleasant, but their populations have dwindled greatly so it's a shell, a reminder of what could have been.

In fact, one of the draws of continued use of older hardware to me is the crippling of certain "excesses" of the web. The only one I am disappointed to lose is easy YouTube access, as there is a lot of great information on there. YouTube is also certainly nothing like it was when I joined in 2006 but at least there are still plenty of helpful videos outside of the "mainstream" fire pit. I feel the longer I am here the more I will rant so I'm going to stop here.

 

[MysticCow]

Maybe it's nostalgia but today's Internet is not as pleasurable to use as it was 20 years ago.

It isn't, but we're also used to it now. 20 years ago, it was EXCITING and NEW. Now, it's just a thing. "Teh Internatz0rz!!!1!!" is now a thing, not new and exciting but rather just bleh and there. And it's now filled with so much junk on the sites you WANT to visit that you just don't want to go there anymore. It's become way too bloated for its own good.

20 years ago, any modern-made website would slow to a non-functional crawl. Now, for some reason, those sites with all their ads and ads and ads (because nobody will ever donate to keep the site running) are standard. These sites would have made ANY system from 20 years ago slow to a crawl.

My internet time now has come down to:

1. Visiting Macrumors
2. Checking a work chat to make sure of things like whether or not I report to work.
3. Warcraft Classic (on my 2011 mini in Windows)

#1 can be done on any system. #2 is pickier, but can be done on any system. #3 is just right out for any PowerPC unless you play on a quasi-illegal-type-maybe-legal-but-likely-illegal private server running WoW 1.12.

With all that being said, I have to commend Cameron "don't call me Camster" Kaiser and his work on TenFourFox. BUT...he is sounding like we're hitting a brick wall and HARD on our PowerPC's and the internet. Doesn't mean we can't utilize them for other purposes (MS Office station, retro games, etc) but the internet side of things seems to be coming to an end for the PowerPC Macs we have.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Having finally gotten to test out my G4 MDD in Linux, I now know just the kind of power I've been missing out on.

Can you elaborate/quantify?

 

[eyoungren]

I was on forums constantly between 1999-2006, and those were by and far the best years for the internet in my opinion. There was a sense of community on the sites I stuck around for, we all were there for the same thing and became familiar with each other to a point where the site was quite neighborly. Sure, there were trolls and some fights did break out, but the moderator's patience for this was next to none so it didn't blow out.

I signed up for one forum in 2001. I was part of a group of people who were there to help and foster the learning of a particular brand of software.

In 2002, the company that makes that software released a version of it that was highly controversial. The forums erupted and became a literal cesspit of hate and vitriol. It reached a point that rather than trying to moderate/clean up the mess the company simply chose to shut off the forum entirely. It did not return for two years. I rejoined in 2004 and many of the old users found their way back.

So, while I generally agree with you, I don't totally. I registered on THIS forum in 2011 precisely because my OLD forum had become simply a drive-by. Anyone posting over there has a question for a specific reason, gets their answer and then never visits again. Here, in our space, new users come back because they are drawn by the community. It can exist outside of the range of years you mention.

In regards to politics and the way things may be going here on MR - I'm here for Macs and community. I will not engage, and I will not visit other parts of the forum where that may be a thing. I left Facebook over that. Not here.

 

[eyoungren]

It isn't, but we're also used to it now. 20 years ago, it was EXCITING and NEW. Now, it's just a thing. "Teh Internatz0rz!!!1!!" is now a thing, not new and exciting but rather just bleh and there. And it's now filled with so much junk on the sites you WANT to visit that you just don't want to go there anymore. It's become way too bloated for its own good.

20 years ago, any modern-made website would slow to a non-functional crawl. Now, for some reason, those sites with all their ads and ads and ads (because nobody will ever donate to keep the site running) are standard. These sites would have made ANY system from 20 years ago slow to a crawl.

My internet time now has come down to:

1. Visiting Macrumors
2. Checking a work chat to make sure of things like whether or not I report to work.
3. Warcraft Classic (on my 2011 mini in Windows)

#1 can be done on any system. #2 is pickier, but can be done on any system. #3 is just right out for any PowerPC unless you play on a quasi-illegal-type-maybe-legal-but-likely-illegal private server running WoW 1.12.

With all that being said, I have to commend Cameron "don't call me Camster" Kaiser and his work on TenFourFox. BUT...he is sounding like we're hitting a brick wall and HARD on our PowerPC's and the internet. Doesn't mean we can't utilize them for other purposes (MS Office station, retro games, etc) but the internet side of things seems to be coming to an end for the PowerPC Macs we have.

I have three or four places I go each day and all day during the day. Various forums here on MR and Reddit. All related to Macs or my mobile carrier. Then I hit up news sites. I'm not engaged anywhere else and especially not social media (other than forums).

My PowerPC Macs can all still handle that.

 

[retta283]

I signed up for one forum in 2001. I was part of a group of people who were there to help and foster the learning of a particular brand of software.

In 2002, the company that makes that software released a version of it that was highly controversial. The forums erupted and became a literal cesspit of hate and vitriol. It reached a point that rather than trying to moderate/clean up the mess the company simply chose to shut off the forum entirely. It did not return for two years. I rejoined in 2004 and many of the old users found their way back.

So, while I generally agree with you, I don't totally. I registered on THIS forum in 2011 precisely because my OLD forum had become simply a drive-by. Anyone posting over there has a question for a specific reason, gets their answer and then never visits again. Here, in our space, new users come back because they are drawn by the community. It can exist outside of the range of years you mention.

In regards to politics and the way things may be going here on MR - I'm here for Macs and community. I will not engage, and I will not visit other parts of the forum where that may be a thing. I left Facebook over that. Not here.

Certainly, it does depend on the forums and the community, and also on the moderator's enforcements. There has and always will be hate and flaming on the web, but it seems like it's become a lot more prevalent in the last 10 or so years on the Internet. I do recall certain forums that were completely trashed by the "old guard" and anyone new was lambasted immediately regardless of their post contents. I guess it was less noticeable then because there was an abundance of forums, so if one was trashed you could go onto the next, although certain hobbies/topics were particularly trashed.

In regards to MR, I only hope they fix the Spy and the way it works with ignored forums. That is where my problem comes from... It has been brought to the attention of the mods so hopefully a fix is inbound.

 

[eyoungren]

Certainly, it does depend on the forums and the community, and also on the moderator's enforcements. There has and always will be hate and flaming on the web, but it seems like it's become a lot more prevalent in the last 10 or so years on the Internet. I do recall certain forums that were completely trashed by the "old guard" and anyone new was lambasted immediately regardless of their post contents. I guess it was less noticeable then because there was an abundance of forums, so if one was trashed you could go onto the next, although certain hobbies/topics were particularly trashed.

In regards to MR, I only hope they fix the Spy and the way it works with ignored forums. That is where my problem comes from... It has been brought to the attention of the mods so hopefully a fix is inbound.

I do heavily use the Ignore Member button. It sounds bad, but I've been on BBS or forum communities since 1985 and I've learned to recognize the people that are going to upset me - even if they happen to be newbies to the forum. I'm not afraid to put them on my ignore list.

EDIT: In regards to ignored forums/Forum Spy…I usually use direct bookmarks on my bookmarks bar. That's mainly because I am here for specific topics and I want to go direct. Most of the other stuff that Forum Spy turns up I am not interested in.

But that's just the way I operate.

 

[MacFoxG4]

In keeping these and older systems running, and especially interacting with the modern internet, we are fighting the tide. Unlike older 90's and 80's systems, the G3, G4, and G5 systems all came with the promise of internet access. That, I believe, is where the struggle really is. Most older computers can be used the way they had been 30 years ago, with no trouble, because nothing involving using them has changed. That's not the case with the internet. It very much has changed.

I agree with this. We associate the G3-G5 PPC Macs with the internet age and thus we still want them to go online. Hopefully, they still can go online for as long as possible even if it is just a small handful of sites plus FTP and possibly IRC (which is the case with classic Mac OS on PPC and '040 Macs).

I take my PPC Macs online because I still can. This forum has been great in helping me do this. I can't use my Macs as daily drivers, even embracing early intel hasn't changed that. Online banking, shopping, and college coursework are things I need a modern machine for. Internet stuff on my Macs is just fun things like forums, YouTube and internet radio via iTunes.

 

[Raging Dufus]

My take is that it's not the internet that has become a cesspool, it's society at large, and the internet/social media/etc. is merely a reflection of that.

Back in the day, the only people coming to online forums were enthusiasts, people who wanted to learn something, or people with common interests in a given forum's subject matter. And those characteristics were primary, meaning that a user's politics/ethnicity/sexuality/whatever took a back seat. This forum is a wonderful holdover from those days. Everyone has these other characteristics, but we aren't here to talk about them. They don't matter to the subject at hand.

It also used to be nobody's damn business what my politics, sexuality, etc. were, unless I chose to share. And if I did, then I ran the risk of hearing someone else's opinion about it. But today, these aspects of a person's identity that used to be nobody's business have become primary, and on most of the web and virtually all of social media, if you don't reveal them yourself, you will be accused of being this/that/the other thing because someone who is this/that/the other thing didn't like what you had to say; or, someone who isn't any of that wants to demonstrate their supposed virtue by at least appearing to defend it. Every other interest someone may have is thus subordinated; you are reduced to a this/that/the other thing and how dare you be like that. And this happens all across the political/cultural spectrum. Everyone is spoiling for a fight, and it becomes a never-ending spiral that leaves you with a binary choice: take up the fight or leave.

And the proliferation of the internet itself has caused this. A propensity for conflict is a latent component of humanity. The more people engage in an activity, the greater the incidence of conflict. It was inevitable that once the internet landed in everyone's pocket, people were going to start pissing each other off. It's also inevitable that the conflict would escalate to the point that those who simply disagree, and who otherwise represent no real danger to each other, would use the weapons at their disposal - doxxing, swatting, cancel culture, organizing riots and mayhem, etc. - to "win" the fight, simply because they can. Thus the conflict spills from the virtual world to the real.

Bottom line: people suck. And people with anonymity, a sense of moral superiority, and a platform with no accountability suck even more. Life in our modern age (while it lasts).

 

[eyoungren]

I can't use my Macs as daily drivers, even embracing early intel hasn't changed that. Online banking, shopping, and college coursework are things I need a modern machine for. Internet stuff on my Macs is just fun things like forums, YouTube and internet radio via iTunes.

I can take my Quad G5 online to do those things. In fact it was doing them from early 2017 to May 2020 as my daily driver. Possibly my 2.3DC as well. But those are two of the three most powerful G5s and I can't use them for the modern apps I need to do my job at home.

And that is why I left PowerPC as a daily driver. If I could use the apps I use for work on my Quad I'd still be using my Quad.

 

[z970]

@Raging Dufus Although I largely agree with you that society itself has deteriorated to an unsustainable degree of being, I am confused. You say that people with anonymity suck. But given that people only know you by the fact that you are supposedly an enraged 'dufus' (complete with flowing facial hair), I must ask, what does that make you?

Or for that matter, what does that make people like me, or anyone else who opted not to use their birth names for online identification?

 

[eyoungren]

@Raging Dufus Although I largely agree with you that society itself has deteriorated to an unsustainable degree of being, I am confused. You say that people with anonymity suck. But given that people only know you by the fact that you are supposedly an enraged 'dufus' (complete with flowing facial hair), I must ask, what does that make you?

Or for that matter, what does that make people like me, or anyone else who opted not to use their birth names for online identification?

One of the reasons I maintain the same or nearly the same username across forums is consistency. If you do a search for my username you'll find me. Probably a bunch of other stuff too that I'm not too crazy about. But you will also find that I am consistent in my attitudes and opinions.

While I value my privacy and try not to post stuff that provides direct access to me, I am not trying to remain anonymous. I want those I interact with across forums to see one person, not someone who acts this way in one place and then acts a different way in another place under a different username. The whole hiding behind anonymity thing we are discussing at the moment.

Doing this therefore also keeps me accountable.

I do in fact have other usernames, but in those instances I am upfront about who I am - and those are typically for RPG related stuff.

 

[m1maverick]

@Raging Dufus Although I largely agree with you that society itself has deteriorated to an unsustainable degree of being, I am confused. You say that people with anonymity suck. But given that people only know you by the fact that you are supposedly an enraged 'dufus' (complete with flowing facial hair), I must ask, what does that make you?

Or for that matter, what does that make people like me, or anyone else who opted not to use their birth names for online identification?

It makes you / us wise. In recent years we've seen social media posts made many years ago come back to haunt people. At the time the comments were made the statements made were not controversial. Then outlooks changed, the subject matter became controversial, and society is unable to consider the statements in context for the time they were made.

 

[m1maverick]

My take is that it's not the internet that has become a cesspool, it's society at large, and the internet/social media/etc. is merely a reflection of that.

I agree to a certain extent but I like to think that people, when they're face to face (at least not in a "protest" setting) tend to be more civil with one another. I know that I am more snarky online than I am in real life despite trying not to be. I find myself getting roped into "shouting" matches with others despite my efforts to avoid doing so. Rarely have I done so in real life. The anonymity, even if someone is using their real name, of the Internet facilitates this.

TBH I am hoping recent events shed light on the problems with big social media and people start finding other things to do with their time (like one ex participant in this forum decided to do). People waste too much time on those platforms. Hopefully, rightly or wrongly, by kicking people off people start to realize "Hey, I don't need this"

 

[Raging Dufus]

@z970mp, I'll try to clear up the confusion. First of all:

You say that people with anonymity suck.

That's not what I said. I said everybody sucks. Some of us suck more than others, but that's very subjective. My point was that anonymity elevates the level of "suckage" of those who are inclined by their nature to suck more. LOL.

If that didn't clear things up, cut me a break. I suck too (hopefully, somewhat less than average).

Next:

people only know you by the fact that you are supposedly an enraged 'dufus'

🤣 ROFL

Well, sometimes I am an enraged dufus. Because I'm nearly always a dufus and sometimes I get angry. So your description, at times, would be spot on 👍

But that doesn't capture the deeper meaning behind my handle. "Raging" should be interpreted as in "raging river" or "raging hurricane". "Dufus" of course means a stupid person, a dumbass. The intent was that, taken together, these two words would capture the sheer inertial force of my stupidity. At times my dumbassedness builds a head of steam that becomes darn near unstoppable. My wife can usually stop it though, she's magical that way.

Moving on:

complete with flowing facial hair

You can blame Gandalf for that one. He called me a dwarf. I couldn't disagree. So, I based my current avatar on an image of the dwarvish character Dwalin from J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit. Dwalin himself is something of a raging dufus, and an inspiration to me. Thanks Gandalf!

And finally:

what does that make people like me, or anyone else who opted not to use their birth names for online identification?

It doesn't make you anything. We've already established that you, me, everybody, we all suck. Your choice of handle and avatar have nothing to do with that. Neither does others' use of their birth identity and true self-image. Embrace your suckage!

As for me, for my purposes here, the anonymity restricts conversation to the topic at hand. That's just the way I want it. I'm not here to be a keyboard commando, neither am I acting that way anywhere else. But I have gotten into spats with people in this forum, and the fact that nobody can tell who/what the hell I am or where I stand on irrelevant matters limits the sticks & stones which can be thrown. I feel that it's a useful check on things.

I don't think any of the above makes me a hypocrite. If I was here casting aspersions upon others' identities, while concealing my own, it would be different - but I'm not.

 

[Raging Dufus]

I agree to a certain extent but I like to think that people, when they're face to face (at least not in a "protest" setting) tend to be more civil with one another. I know that I am more snarky online than I am in real life despite trying not to be. I find myself getting roped into "shouting" matches with others despite my efforts to avoid doing so. Rarely have I done so in real life. The anonymity, even if someone is using their real name, of the Internet facilitates this.

TBH I am hoping recent events shed light on the problems with big social media and people start finding other things to do with their time (like one ex participant in this forum decided to do). People waste too much time on those platforms. Hopefully, rightly or wrongly, by kicking people off people start to realize "Hey, I don't need this"

Couldn't agree more. Face-to-face and one-on-one, nearly everybody will check their own behavior to conform to societal standards. That's what makes protest settings so volatile, people are emboldened by being in a group to do things they would never have considered otherwise. Human nature, unfortunately.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I choose not to be anonymous and be easily tracked across online platforms simply (and hopefully) to communicate that what I say online is the same as I would face to face in the realworld.

 

[repairedCheese]

Can you elaborate/quantify?

Oh yeah. So, the default video card on the G4 MDD is a Radeon 9000, but as it happens, that's been broken in the Linux kernel since some time between 2012 and 2016. The system would crash to a black screen if I tried to run newer versions of Linux, such as Lubuntu 16.04 or Void Linux PPC.

But I finally got my hands on a Radeon 9200 which has no such problems with Linux. TFF was always rather slow on the MDD, and while Leopard Webkit is quite fast, it's horribly unstable. Funny enough, it seems like it's more stable if you only use one cpu, but that might just be an illusion. Still, either way, we're talking about a project supported by one person, or a dead project.

Linux, on the other hand, offers web browsers that can simply take advantage of more of the power I have on offer in my G4 MDD. Seeing wicknix's builds of Interweb and Spiderweb run about as fast as LWK utterly impressed me, especially since Firefox, of late, has become sort of a slow and bloated browser. Sure, proper Firefox can't currently be built for G4, but seeing it run in Void Linux on my G5 has certainly impressed me, even if I've yet to see it run well.

But it's seeing Firefox forks that run well, and I mean properly well to the point where I'd even be willing to call the experience smooth, it just managed to really impress, and do so about as much as I was hoping it would.

And yes, wicknix is also one person, one person building a whole host of browsers for us, but they're mostly straight ports of much larger, fairly well supported projects. It's an entirely different kind of effort.

 

[m1maverick]

I choose not to be anonymous and be easily tracked across online platforms simply (and hopefully) to communicate that what I say online is the same as I would face to face in the realworld.

Is Dronecatcher your birth name 😁

 

[m1maverick]

And yes, wicknix is also one person, one person building a whole host of browsers for us, but they're mostly straight ports of much larger, fairly well supported projects. It's an entirely different kind of effort.

These guys rock! Glad they're willing to commit their time to such efforts.

 

[repairedCheese]

I agree with this. We associate the G3-G5 PPC Macs with the internet age and thus we still want them to go online. Hopefully, they still can go online for as long as possible even if it is just a small handful of sites plus FTP and possibly IRC (which is the case with classic Mac OS on PPC and '040 Macs).

I take my PPC Macs online because I still can. This forum has been great in helping me do this. I can't use my Macs as daily drivers, even embracing early intel hasn't changed that. Online banking, shopping, and college coursework are things I need a modern machine for. Internet stuff on my Macs is just fun things like forums, YouTube and internet radio via iTunes.

That association is why some people don't understand what these machines are, unfortunately. They're a part of the mainstream internet era, but an early one. Oh, sure, I may have started out with a 486 running Windows 95, getting dial up, but that was hardly mainstream at the time. But only just barely.

You can still find working builds of Firefox forks for Windows XP for the same reason, because systems from early in the internet age still often need to go online to feel like they're performing their duty. Even if it's just to run retro games, you're entering a timeframe of game patches becoming common, not to mention mods. The internet quickly became integral to the computer experience. We'd be missing something without it. And that's even if you hate what the internet has become.

 

[Dronecatcher]

Is Dronecatcher your birth name 😁

No but going across platforms it's easy to find I'm Wayne Sadler and live in Lincolnshire, UK

 

[repairedCheese]

These guys rock! Glad they're willing to commit their time to such efforts.

Oh, absolutely! The fact that there's only a handful organizations that can even make browsers from scratch means that things like Basilisk are even more important. As badly as Firefox is doing in the user metrics, it's clearly easier to port to a whole wide array of hardware that wouldn't normally be able to use it.