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bluecoast

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 7, 2017
2,240
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I’m not getting the effects of PWM when I check out the 11 Pro models at the Apple Store.

Even after a few seconds of looking at the X or XS I can feel a stab of (mild) pain at the back of my eyes.

Q: Is anyone else experiencing this?

I know that the screens have changed with the 11 Pro - could it be that Apple have changed how PWM works too?
 

jimmy_uk

macrumors 68020
Oct 19, 2015
2,391
3,210
UK
There's a few threads about this already on the forum so it's worth a search.

I would say the evidence would suggest the PWM is not different. Viewing the iPhones instore is not the best test as the ceiling lights are very bright and the phones are set to 100% brightness.
 
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5105973

Cancelled
Sep 11, 2014
12,132
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I could not use iPhone X and IPhone XS Max. I tried and got eye strain on the X and headaches and severe migraine on the XS Max. I am perfectly fine and healthy on iPhone 11 Pro, but some other people who have had trouble with the other models still have trouble with the Pro.

All I know is what is stated in their own literature on their own web site and that is they have new display drivers and new software for their new display requirements. So yes, there have been some changes made but precisely what these changes are and what they mean for people who can’t use Apple’s OLED display is still not really known.

From what I have been able to theorize looking over various sources, it wasn’t just pwm alone making some of us sick. It was how Apple implemented a custom display specification at the sub pixel level that might have been making things extra screwy for some of us. Others of us who just have a straightforward pwm sensitivity likely still will suffer adverse symptoms.

I am still sensitive to the technology in the Face ID. I will get dry gritty eyes and a weird feeling in my eyes if I mess around making Animoji. Lol I know it serves me right!

If I turn off attention aware and adjust the settings so that the dot projector and flood illuminator should only be firing when I use Face ID, my eyes are fine. Ordinary daily use of Face ID doesn’t make me uncomfortable.

But when I was setting up my phone from scratch and had to use Face ID more than normal to authenticate all of my accounts, I did have gritty dry eyes for a day.
 

timeconsumer

macrumors 68020
Aug 1, 2008
2,061
2,058
Portland
There's a few threads about this already on the forum so it's worth a search.

I would say the evidence would suggest the PWM is not different. Viewing the iPhones instore is not the best test as the ceiling lights are very bright and the phones are set to 100% brightness.
I’ve found that I can use the iPhone 11 Pro in store with no issues. Once I get to using it in my normal daily use is when I start having the usual PWM issues. It’s so weird.
 

bluecoast

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 7, 2017
2,240
2,665
A stab of pain may be a false negative. Do you normally react to iPhone led screens that way?

No. I’ve owned the 3GS, 4S, 5S, 7 & currently have the XR. I’ve been fine using them all. However after a few seconds of glancing at a X, XR etc OLED, I wince. I thought it was the bright lights in the Apple Store but then I read about PWM and it all made sense.
 

bluecoast

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 7, 2017
2,240
2,665
I could not use iPhone X and IPhone XS Max. I tried and got eye strain on the X and headaches and severe migraine on the XS Max. I am perfectly fine and healthy on iPhone 11 Pro, but some other people who have had trouble with the other models still have trouble with the Pro.

All I know is what is stated in their own literature on their own web site and that is they have new display drivers and new software for their new display requirements. So yes, there have been some changes made but precisely what these changes are and what they mean for people who can’t use Apple’s OLED display is still not really known.

From what I have been able to theorize looking over various sources, it wasn’t just pwm alone making some of us sick. It was how Apple implemented a custom display specification at the sub pixel level that might have been making things extra screwy for some of us. Others of us who just have a straightforward pwm sensitivity likely still will suffer adverse symptoms.

I am still sensitive to the technology in the Face ID. I will get dry gritty eyes and a weird feeling in my eyes if I mess around making Animoji. Lol I know it serves me right!

If I turn off attention aware and adjust the settings so that the dot projector and flood illuminator should only be firing when I use Face ID, my eyes are fine. Ordinary daily use of Face ID doesn’t make me uncomfortable.

But when I was setting up my phone from scratch and had to use Face ID more than normal to authenticate all of my accounts, I did have gritty dry eyes for a day.
Wow, that’s rough. you have my sympathies. I wonder if it’s the OLED PWM that then means that your eyes are then super sensitive to Face ID Face ID is ok for me.

I do think that Apple has gone into a bit of a dead end with the X series OLED phones. Roll on 2020 (although I hope that the rumours that Apple will fully switch to OLED in all of its new phones - as I simply won’t be able to buy an up to date iPhone).

Until then, unless you are super picky, the 11 is great.
 
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5105973

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Sep 11, 2014
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Wow, that’s rough. you have my sympathies. I wonder if it’s the OLED PWM that then means that your eyes are then super sensitive to Face ID Face ID is ok for me.

I do think that Apple has gone into a bit of a dead end with the X series OLED phones. Roll on 2020 (although I hope that the rumours that Apple will fully switch to OLED in all of its new phones - as I simply won’t be able to buy an up to date iPhone).

Until then, unless you are super picky, the 11 is great.
I only have a problem if I have to use it a lot, like when I was signing into all my accounts again to set them up on the new iPhone. Since I decided to start fresh and not restore from backup. In normal day to day use I’m comfortable with Face ID.

I had serious eye ache with the iris scanner on the Samsung phones. That one really hurt and the pain got worse and lasted longer with each use. My husband had the same problem as did another MR forum member. I guess it’s just not a comfortable thing having lasers hit the eye, even if you can’t see the beam. Well at least not for some of us. Plenty of people love the iris scanner on the Samsung.
 
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Jimmy James

macrumors 603
Oct 26, 2008
5,488
4,067
Magicland
No. I’ve owned the 3GS, 4S, 5S, 7 & currently have the XR. I’ve been fine using them all. However after a few seconds of glancing at a X, XR etc OLED, I wince. I thought it was the bright lights in the Apple Store but then I read about PWM and it all made sense.

XR is lcd. X and 11 are oled. There could be a psychosomatic response if you’re getting a jab of pain to only some Apple oled screens. Usually, the unfavourable response is fatigue and tension.
 
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JasonHB

macrumors 6502a
Jul 20, 2010
559
493
Warwickshire, UK
The PWM is different on the 11 Pro phones, they are running a faster rate so there is less flicker (if you are affected by it) and apparently, some people who had issues with the X and Xs are not suffering with the 11

Jason
 
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timeconsumer

macrumors 68020
Aug 1, 2008
2,061
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Portland
The PWM is different on the 11 Pro phones, they are running a faster rate so there is less flicker (if you are affected by it) and apparently, some people who had issues with the X and Xs are not suffering with the 11

Jason
According to Notebookcheck the 11 Pro is running at 290.7 and 11 Pro Max is 245.1. The iPhone XS and XS Max were tested at 240. So not a huge difference but perhaps it helps. Unfortunately not enough to help me.

11 Pro: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...than-you-could-shake-a-stick-at.435092.0.html

11 Pro Max: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...ap-forwards-or-more-of-the-same.435028.0.html
 
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jimmy_uk

macrumors 68020
Oct 19, 2015
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UK
The PWM is different on the 11 Pro phones, they are running a faster rate so there is less flicker (if you are affected by it) and apparently, some people who had issues with the X and Xs are not suffering with the 11

Jason


According to Notebookcheck the 11 Pro is running at 290.7 and 11 Pro Max is 245.1. The iPhone XS and XS Max were tested at 240. So not a huge difference but perhaps it helps. Unfortunately not enough to help me.

11 Pro: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...than-you-could-shake-a-stick-at.435092.0.html

11 Pro Max: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple...ap-forwards-or-more-of-the-same.435028.0.html
Its already been mentioned a few times on the forum that the 290.7 reading was a writing error that hasn't been amended.

The report also mentioned:

11 Pro Max:
"The display backlight flickers at 245.1 Hz (Likely utilizing PWM) Flickering detected at a brightness setting of 99 % and below. There should be no flickering or PWM above this brightness setting.

The frequency of 245.1 Hz is relatively low, so sensitive users will likely notice flickering and experience eyestrain at the stated brightness setting and below."

11 Pro:
"The panel in our review unit flickers at between 60 and 290.7 Hz, which is rather unusual. By contrast, most OLED panels flicker at one frequency."
 
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bluecoast

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Nov 7, 2017
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Whatever the case, I’m a little worried about the reports saying that Apple is moving to OLED for all of its 2020 phones. I hope they move the ‘iPhone 12’ to the lcd panel to one with the ppi of the 6-8 plus phones.

For me, it’s a worrying trend that since the 6, Apple have made choices with their latest and greatest phones that start to leave some people behind.

In 2014 if you wanted a new version of the ergonomic 5s, sorry - it was ‘big’ or ‘bigger’.

Then with the 6s - 3D Touch and worse battery life. 7 - no headphone jack (which didn’t bother me too much).

Then with the X... PWM starting at $999. You’re welcome.
 

tonybarnaby

macrumors 68020
Dec 3, 2017
2,385
1,741
The Xs max was the first and only oled phone to ever give me issues. It’s a damn shame, because the pro 11 max is the phone I have been waiting for.
 
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Catalin Urea

macrumors newbie
Nov 21, 2019
1
0
[QUOTE = "bluecoast, post: 27844733, membru: 1104712"]
Nu obțin efectele PWM când verific cele 11 modele Pro din Apple Store.

Chiar și după câteva secunde de a privi X sau XS, pot simți o înjunghiere de durere (ușoară) în spatele ochilor.

Î: Mai experimentează cineva asta?

Știu că ecranele s-au schimbat odată cu 11 Pro - s-ar putea ca Apple să fi schimbat și modul în care funcționează PWM?
[/ Citat]
Folosesc un Xs cu luminozitatea la 50% fara probleme. Am cumparat un 11 pro insa efectiv nu il pot folosi datorita implementarii PWM total diferite fata de XS! Practic dupa 10 minute de utilizare imi distruge ochii! Cred ca amplitudinea modulatiei este mare, iar frecventa de 290 hz doar o teorie!
 

esaelias187

macrumors regular
Jul 25, 2017
228
122
trust me it has, I never knew about pwm and im actually depressed I have to use the iphone 8, I even had to give my apple watch 4 back today...in store I do not get the effects either but when I use it in my house I get like a focus issue in my eyes and a weird tingly feeling in my head overall, I don't usually get pain so I have concluded it is the pwm.... trust me the iphone 11 pro pwm is equally as bad
 

pbonitati

macrumors regular
Aug 25, 2015
242
407
Rhode Island
For what it is worth I was diagnosed at an early age with chronic migraines, way before oleds lol. Anyways, I do take medicine on the daily to keep them at bay. I've been using Apple oleds since they came out with the X and its been all status quo for the most part. I did do an iPhone XR test once I found out about pwm but my results were basically no different. Either way, I hope Apple can address these concerns in the next hardware release.
 

Simacca

macrumors 65816
Jul 31, 2008
1,335
614
UK, South East.
I’m usually really sensitive to new screens, but never had any issues with the 11 pro coming from an 8+. My aw4 was a different issue. Made me feel nauseous and headaches. I persevered with it, and slowly my eyes got used to it after a couple of weeks.
 
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esaelias187

macrumors regular
Jul 25, 2017
228
122
I’m usually really sensitive to new screens, but never had any issues with the 11 pro coming from an 8+. My aw4 was a different issue. Made me feel nauseous and headaches. I persevered with it, and slowly my eyes got used to it after a couple of weeks.

I want to test the apple watch 4 within my return period haha
 

dimitricook

macrumors regular
Jul 30, 2013
190
209
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