Quad 3GHz Mac Pro vs Quad 2.5GHz PowerMac

[Multimedia]

MultiCore Enhanced Final Cut Pro 5.2 Probably Coming This Fall

So the webpages at Apple.com suggest the improvement of Xeon vs Quad G5 in FCP of 1.3- 1.4 times as fast as the Quad G5.

However, notice that it is footnoted that these results were obtained using a Beta version of FCP:

On The Mac Pro Performance Page In the first section "Film and Video" footnote under the Bar Charts:
"Testing conducted by Apple in July 2006 using preproduction Mac Pro units and shipping Power Mac G5 Quad units. Mac Pro testing conducted with a beta version of Final Cut Pro."

What does this mean for us: new version of FCP required for multiple core utilization?

I just took advanatage of the crossgrade, will it soon need an upgrade as well? I hope it is an update/download not as a version upgrade/purchase.

I'm sure it will be a free download update not more money. But I'm not surprised. That's why I'm waiting until December 10 to mail in my Crossgrade form and DVD. I wanted to get all the updates until the offer expires December 20 on the install DVDs I get with my Crossgrade. Thanks for pointing out that detail. 🙂

I think it's safe to point out that when this MultiCore version of Final Cut Pro is released, that FCP performance will also improve on the Quad. The same will also likely be true when Leopard ships.

 

[Silentwave]

possible clovertown obstacles....

OK here are some possible DIY upgrade to clovertown obstacles

1) firmware- will it even boot?

2) FSB- 1066 for clovertown is slower than 1333 for woody

3) RAM- Clovertown uses 533 FB-DIMM instead of the 667 FBDIMM Woodcrest uses

4) power/heat- the Clovertown has a TDP in practical use about 20W higher than the hottest Woodcrest...multiply this by two because its dual processor, and you've got a good 40W beyond the design, maybe more.

5) size- will it fit the existing coolers?

 

[monster620ie]

I'm sure it will be a free download update not more money. But I'm not surprised. That's why I'm waiting until December 10 to mail in my Crossgrade form and DVD. I wanted to get all the updates until the offer expires December 20 on the install DVDs I get with my Crossgrade. Thanks for pointing out that detail. 🙂

Darn it ... I just received my crossgrade upgrade yesterday eventhough I only own powerbook and am waiting for merom based laptop. While on the topic of fcp, can I install on my powerbook for now and in install on later on my future intel-laptop? (reading the legal eula it seems install is only allowed for one laptop and desktop... I guess I will have to uninstall first on powerbook .....) I am just not sure if apple will block my serial number or something ...

 

[JFreak]

this kinds of benchmarks show clearly that the world is not yet ready for Universally Better appplications. Quad G5 still rocks as a production system, but it would surely be nice to give those new Mac Pro's a test drive; however, it would be rather lame, as not nearly all audio plugins have been converted. For myself -- for that very reason -- the Intel-era begins in 2008 at the earliest. I want zero crashes when I mix.

 

[50548]

I wonder if there is still any Winblows fanboy out there willing to justify the purchase of a PC...horrible OS, slower machine, more expensive...no damn way. The Quad MacPro is THE most powerful desktop in this world...period.

 

[Multimedia]

You Can Install FCP On Your Powerbook Now & MacBook Plus Desktop When You Get Them

Darn it ... I just received my crossgrade upgrade yesterday eventhough I only own powerbook and am waiting for merom based laptop. While on the topic of fcp, can I install on my powerbook for now and in install on later on my future intel-laptop? (reading the legal eula it seems install is only allowed for one laptop and desktop... I guess I will have to uninstall first on powerbook .....) I am just not sure if apple will block my serial number or something ...

No they won't block your serial number. It's the honor system. Yes you can put it on what you have now and what you get later.

 

[janstett]

I have a question for Mac Pro owners re: dual monitors

I have a question about dual monitor support on the Mac Pro...

Right now my main desktop is a 3.6 GHz Pentium D Xtreme (codename Smithfield, 2 cores w/ Hyperthreading, looks like 4 cores) running XP Media Center. A very capable machine, but I'm on the verge of getting a 3 GHz Mac Pro (stripped so I can mitigate the financial damage). I want the ATI Radeon display card.

I have two displays, the 2nd of which is rotated 90 degrees (portrait mode) so it's the perfect size for editing documents or reading long articles. Can I rotate the 2nd display 90 degrees like I can in Windows?

 

[epitaphic]

Can I rotate the 2nd display 90 degrees like I can in Windows?

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: Yes you can

😉

 

[amin]

You make good points. I guess we'll learn more as more information becomes available.

Yes under some specific results the quad was a bit faster than the dual. Though with the combo of Rosetta+Photoshop its unclear what is causing the difference. However, if you compare the vast majority of the benchmarks, there's negligible difference.

Concerning Photoshop specifically, as can be experienced on a quad G5, the performance increase is 15-20%. A future jump to 8-core would theoretically be in the 8% increase mark. Photoshop (CS2) simply cannot scale adequately beyond 2 cores, maybe that'll change in Spring 2007. Fingers crossed it does.


I beg to differ. If an app or game is memory intensive, faster memory access does matter. Barefeats has some benchmarks on dual channel vs quad channel on the Mac Pro. I'd personally like to see that benchmark with an added Conroe system. If dual to quad channel gave 16-25% improvement, imagine what 75% increase in actual bandwidth will do. Besides, I was merely addressing your statements that Woodcrest is faster because of its higher speed FSB and higher memory bus bandwidth.


Anandtech, at the moment, is the only place with a quad xeon vs dual xeon benchmark. And yes, dual Woodcrest is fast enough, but is it cost effective compared to a single Woodcrest/Conroe? It seems that for the most part, Mac Pro users are paying for an extra chip but only really utilizing it when running several CPU intensive apps at the same time.


You're absolutely right about that, its only measuring the improvement over increased FSB. If you take into account FB-DIMM's appalling efficiency, there should be no increase at all (if not decrease) for memory intensive apps.

One question I'd like to put out there, if Apple has had a quad core mac shipping for the past 8 months, why would it wait til intel quads to optimize the code for FCP? Surely they must have known for some time before that that they would release a quad core G5 so either optimizing FCP for quads is a real bastard or they've been sitting on it for no reason.

 

[Multimedia]

Handbrake-Toast Cook-Off Report • Tiger May Have Mediocre MultiCore Management Skills

And I'm not convinced this is only an application problem. When I run Handbrake on the Quad G5 alone it uses just over two cores 203% @ about 100fps analysis (1st Pass of 2) speed. If I add a Toast encode while that is happening, Handbrake takes a huge hit down to below 150% @ 70-80 fps analysis while Toast can only use about 130% instead of more alone. So the Tiger OS X seems to have difficulty managing more than one multicore application's core usage allocation up to its maximum capability - IE Tiger is not so MultiCore Enabeled as it could be IE Leopard probably will be much moreso - let's hope that is one of its TOP SECRETS.

When I ran tests on the Mac Pro at the Apple Store last Saturday between Toast and/or Handbrake, their use of more cores alone and together was much better. Handbrake alone can analyze up to around 134fps while writing at about 107 fps using about 1.5-1.75 cores. So while not yet fully optimized for Mac Pro yet, it's already outperforming the Quad G5 significantly. Handbrake would appear to analyze files about 33% faster while writing them about 15% faster while using 1.5 to 1.75 cores. Quad G5 does analysis @ about 100fps and writes about 93 fps (2nd Pass) using up to about 2.2 cores.

Toast 7.1 UB uses Mac Pro cores much more than it does Quad cores - in the range of 280 - 310% IE about 3 cores compared to only about 1.5 cores on the Quad G5 as well as on the Dual Core G5. Unfortunately I didn't have encode times for each of the sample files I brought with me from the Quad so I don't know the real time how much faster that really amounts to. Running simultaneously on the Mac Pro, Toast would use over 2.5 cores while handbrake would use only one or less than one at best.

Together simultaneously on Mac Pro 2.66 it's
Toast/Handbrake
2.7 cores/1 core best
2.5 cores/.75 core worst

Handbrake during Toast is down to as few as 60fps but sometimes up to 100fps as well. Toast meanwhile is Still consuming up to almost 3 cores with Handbrake running at the same time. So Toast would appear to be much more optimized for the Mac Pro's MultiCores than it is for the Quad G5's Multicores. Same could be said for Handbrake - especially since it is not really fully Optimized for Mac Pro yet.

 

[satzzz]

There's allready en new beta of Adobe's Lightroom, Does that one run native under on the intel machines?

 

[epitaphic]

And I'm not convinced this is only an application problem. When I run Handbrake on the Quad G5 alone it uses just over two cores 203%

So what happened to:

Both Toast and Handbrake can use 4 cores EACH

Looking at the handbrake forums, speeds seem to vary drastically between users with the same machine. Definitely seems to be affected by whatever else you have running or configured in the OS or otherwise. I suppose the "cleanest" install to test is in the Apple store (I'm just assuming they do a clean ghost copy at shutdown or end of day?)

When I ran tests on the Mac Pro at the Apple Store last Saturday between Toast and/or Handbrake, their use of more cores alone and together was much better.

So your benchmarks show the Mac Pro using 15-33% less CPU than the G5? There's no doubt that Woodcrest is a superior chip architecture to the G5 (one would hope after 3 years) and so that's why you're seeing more FPS inspite of less CPU use. But why does it use less cores though? Seems like either its a software problem OR some hardware is being maxed (I/O or FSB perhaps?)

So would it be correct to say that the only app that is even remotely "Quadcore aware" is Toast? It seems like by the time professional apps are made to take advantage of 4 cores we'll probably be on more than 8! 😱

If only they could build something in the CPU itself that delegates tasks to n cores, we'd all be sorted. 🙂

 

[epitaphic]

There's allready en new beta of Adobe's Lightroom, Does that one run native under on the intel machines?

From Adobe's site:

Will Lightroom run on Intel-based Macintoshes?

Yes. The Macintosh version of Adobe Lightroom beta 3 is a Universal application that will run natively both on PowerPC systems and on the new Intel-based Macintoshes.

 

[MrCrowbar]

Warning To Macbook Users

!!!! DON'T DO THE SMC FIRMWARE UPDATE !!!!

Sorry to post it here, but I think it's urgent.
This update "fixes" tha Macbook fans. After the update, they (the fans) basically run at full speed all the time. They only stop once your CPU is below 50°C.

 

[macgeek2005]

I'm sure you know this. But just a reminder that you would be dealing with an extremely fragile and tricky upgrade process that could destroy your motherboard or fry the processor without the latest cooling system from Apple. Just my own caution against attempting this. Not worth the risk I think. There will be a better video card with the Dual Clovertown Mac Pro as well as other changes to the system fixing bugs discovered between now and then. Too many changes in the works for me to want to fool with such a complex system.

You make me mad you know that? All over the boards I see your posts with your weird avatar and your extremely critical opinions on everything. Why don't you wait until 2010 and get a 32 core system from intel. Why don't you wait until nobody uses computers anymore. This is just a phase in the history of the world. There will be something beyond computers in another few hundred years. Why buy a computer if it'll be obsolete at some point?

Professional users are out there using G5 towers and even G4's. They're using MacBook Pro's, which are much less powerfull than the Quad Mac Pro right now. I mean, what's your problem? Will there ever be a computer good enough for you?

There are people like you out there, but i've never met a case as extreme as you. I mean, you even went as far as to say that theres very little you can do with 4 cores. Where the **** did you pull that from? Actually, don't answer that question.

I think that you're secretly some evil worker from microsoft trying to stall people from buying Mac Pro's!

If everyone could all of a sudden comprehend exactly how powerful the current machines are, anyone who was thinking of buying one, would buy one.

But you're out here with your "Clovertown is better" and your "Bugs must be worked out" and your this and your that.

You know what? I have three Rev. A iMac Core Duo's in my house, and not a single one of them has had a bug, a crash, a freeze, or a problem of any sort. Rev. A.

HMMM. Maybe Apple does know how to do Rev. A. Just sometimes? Maybe? Perhaps?

Especially with their Quad Xeon 64 Bit Workstation which they've been working on for over a year?

Do you realise that in the procces of making these computers they work out the bugs themselves? They use the computers, and find all the bugs possible, and work them out?

What do you think all those apple workers have been doing for the last year and a half, if not working out bugs on their machines?

For anyone out there who has been needlessly influenced by this guy to wait for a system that will only be outdated by the one that will come after it, please uninfluence yourself, and buy the stupid computer that you want, when you want it.

Jeeshh!!

 

[THX1139]

... For anyone out there who has been needlessly influenced by this guy to wait for a system that will only be outdated by the one that will come after it, please uninfluence yourself, and buy the stupid computer that you want, when you want it.

Jeeshh!!

I agree. I'm noticing a trend. People who are looking at the Macpro in a negative way come in three flavors. The first type are invested in G5 (especially quad) and are desperately trying justify that their investment is sound, when they actually desire a Macpro. They can feel better about their old machines by making the new ones seem bad. The are almost "smug" about waiting until a better one comes out. The second flavor are people who hate the Mac culture and are pissed that the Mac is catching up to the windows workstation sector. The third type are people who can't afford a Macpro and go out of their way to publicly discredit the machine so that they can feel good about their iMacs or Minis. There are others, but you get the point.

I also find it amusing when I see posters participating in Macpro discussions when they have publicly stated that they have no intention of buying a Macpro. WTF?? Don't they have a life outside of macrumors? If I owned a G5 Quad and had no intention of buying a Macpro, I'd be spending all of my spare time doing cool stuff with my machine... instead of wasting that time participating in discussions that have nothing to do with me. I might read though some of the threads now and then, just to keep up with technology - but to particpate and debate, what a waste. I guess some folks have no life.

 

[bigbossbmb]

That's why I'm waiting until December 10 to mail in my Crossgrade form and DVD. I wanted to get all the updates until the offer expires December 20 on the install DVDs I get with my Crossgrade. Thanks for pointing out that detail. 🙂

I really doubt that they are going to put the new updates onto the crossgrade discs. I just got mine and it didn't include the 5.1.1 update...maybe a 5.2 update would be different. But I don't think it is really a reason to wait.

 

[Multimedia]

I May Buy A Mac Pro, But Am Still Undecided • This Thread Is For Both 4-Core Owners

I also find it amusing when I see posters participating in Macpro discussions when they have publicly stated that they have no intention of buying a Macpro. WTF?? Don't they have a life outside of macrumors? If I owned a G5 Quad and had no intention of buying a Macpro, I'd be spending all of my spare time doing cool stuff with my machine... instead of wasting that time participating in discussions that have nothing to do with me. I might read though some of the threads now and then, just to keep up with technology - but to particpate and debate, what a waste. I guess some folks have no life.

While it is true I have no life, it is not true I have fully decided to skip buying a Mac Pro. These discussions have lead me to a place of indecision about it rather than what I previously thought, which was to skip it. I never intended to talk anyone out of buying one if they want one. And I never intended to talk bad dirt against it. My apologies to anyone who thought I did. 🙁

My hearty congratulations to all who have taken the Mac Pro plunge already.

I am also waiting to see what the full scope of Core 2 offerings will be as I want a 17" Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro more first.

As far as the comment that Toast and Handbrake can use all four cores goes, Toast definitely does in the Mac Pro and if you add a significant action to the Quad G5, it will negatively impact the 2-3 core performance of Handbrake as well as Toast. That is what I meant. If it wasn't clear before now, I apologize for the imcomplete explanation of my meaning.

I feel misunderstood by some of you. No harm intended. Not anti-Mac Pro at all. Not trying to ratinoalize Quad G5 as somehow better - no way. Not trying to negatively impact Mac Pro sales. I'm totally Pro Mac Pro. Regret the misunderstanding. Wish I hadn't hurt some people's feelings. 😱

 

[macgeek2005]

While it is true I have no life, it is not true I have fully decided to skip buying a Mac Pro. These discussions have lead me to a place of indecision about it rather than what I previously thought, which was to skip it. I never intended to talk anyone out of buying one if they want one. And I never intended to talk bad dirt against it. My apologies to anyone who thought I did. 🙁

My heartly congratulations to all who have taken the Mac Pro plunge already.

I am also waiting to see what the full scope of Core 2 offerings will be as I want a 17" Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro more first.

As far as the comment that Toast and Handbrake can use all four cores goes, Toast definitely does in the Mac Pro and if you add a significant action to the Quad G5, it will negatively impact the 2-3 core performance of Handbrake as well as Toast. That is what I meant. If it wasn't clear before now, I apologize for the imcomplete explanation of my meaning.

I feel misunderstood by some of you. No harm intended. Not anti-Mac Pro at all. Not trying to ratinoalize Quad G5 as somehow better - no way. Not trying to negatively impact Mac Pro sales. I'm totally Pro Mac Pro. Regret the misunderstanding. Wish I hadn't hurt some people's feelings. 😱

That's okay. No worries. I just get a little defensive when I spend $5000 on a new system, and then see you posting about how it'll be better with Clovertown. But that's my problem I guess. 🙄

Anyway, it's all cool.

 

[jamesW135]

Whoa! I'm amazed at how it compared to the G5 in the Photoshop Speed test. If it was this fast now. Imagine PS once it's a UB!!😱

 

[THX1139]

That's okay. No worries. I just get a little defensive when I spend $5000 on a new system, and then see you posting about how it'll be better with Clovertown. But that's my problem I guess. 🙄

Anyway, it's all cool.

Yeah... me too! LOL!! 😀

As for Toast and Handbrake performance... well that's all well and cool, but I have little use for those apps on such extreme level. I can't think of an instance where I would run Toast more than once or twice a week. Maybe I should get netflix and build a library of illegal movies?? Nah... I will be using my Macpro for creative work instead. FCP, Motion, Shake, Lightwave, Maya etc... I realize that comparisions with Handbrake and Toast are being made just to show how the cores are utilized, but frankly, I don't give a damn about those apps. They show me nothing. Now if you get into comparing heavy duty Professional apps that take full advantage of all cores at native speeds, then I'm excited. For example, Newtek Lightwave has been announced as UB "very soon". Lightwave is a fully multicore application that should test the strength of the Macpro when it comes to rendering. I'd love to see those benchmarks compared to G5!

Newtek Press Release

 

[Silentwave]

That's okay. No worries. I just get a little defensive when I spend $5000 on a new system, and then see you posting about how it'll be better with Clovertown. But that's my problem I guess. 🙄

Anyway, it's all cool.

but it might not! First the programs have to be made to use all 8 cores, then you have to combat the slower FSB and RAM (533 FBD instead of 667)

Tigerton is a totally different story of course 😉 😀

 

[slackpacker]

Anyone ever check and see if Quicktime was Universal

 

[wmmk]

Anyone ever check and see if Quicktime was Universal

if i'm not mistaken, it's been universal since osx for intel was released.

 

[Multimedia]

Clarification Of How I Use Toast & Handbrake • Not For Burning DVDs

That's okay. No worries. I just get a little defensive when I spend $5000 on a new system, and then see you posting about how it'll be better with Clovertown. But that's my problem I guess. 🙄

Anyway, it's all cool.

Thank you. I didn't mean to make you feel bad. This Clovertown thing is not new news. Some of us have known it would follow the first Mac Pro fairly soon thereafter since last Winter and have been discussing it ever since then. So I didn't think bringing it up here would upset new buyers. It's definitely going to cost a lot more if that helps.

Yeah... me too! LOL!! 😀

As for Toast and Handbrake performance... well that's all well and cool, but I have little use for those apps on such extreme level. I can't think of an instance where I would run Toast more than once or twice a week. Maybe I should get netflix and build a library of illegal movies?? Nah... I will be using my Macpro for creative work instead. FCP, Motion, Shake, Lightwave, Maya etc... I realize that comparisions with Handbrake and Toast are being made just to show how the cores are utilized, but frankly, I don't give a damn about those apps. They show me nothing. Now if you get into comparing heavy duty Professional apps that take full advantage of all cores at native speeds, then I'm excited. For example, Newtek Lightwave has been announced as UB "very soon". Lightwave is a fully multicore application that should test the strength of the Macpro when it comes to rendering. I'd love to see those benchmarks compared to G5!

Newtek Press Release

Thanks. I know what you mean. 🙂

Just a brief clarification on how I use Toast. Has nothing to do with burning DVDs. I use it to encode DVD Images of Digital Broadcast Television Shows recorded with EyeTV2 from off air SD and HD transmissions for personal archival purposes. Images not DVDs. Why? Because I beleive Handbrake is the most superior mp4 encoder available and it needs DVDs or DVD Images to rip from. Toast has what I think is among the best DVD Image transcoders. So I crank up the Toast settings to Maximum Quality and transcode the Native Digital Off Air Broadcast Recordings with Toast to DVD Images that Handbrake can then use to make pristine mp4 files that are a fraction the size of the originals. Once ripped to mp4s, the originals can be deleted as well as the Toast Images. What was originally a 4.4 GB recording winds up a 351 MB mp4 file - not H.264 btw for other reasons. 12 of those mp4 files fit on the same DVD that even one of the original recordings won't even fit on. And they look very similar to the originals. A little soft, but very fine from a fraction of the starting size. And from an iPod on an analog TV they look as good as commercial DVDs.

The same technique can be used to make pristine iPod compatible web-size versions of any of your FCP creations. So it may be relevant to you when you look at that post post-production application. 🙂

Anyway I'm glad you guys aren't too angry with me cause this time forward is really going to be a power explosion on all personal computers and we all know here that OS X is the only way to fly with the new hardware. Once we get Leopard on board and the remainder of all the pro aplications go UB and MultiCore Optimized, 2007 forward are going to be amazing times for creativity with little to no waiting for any processes to get done. 🙂 Whoopie!