Qualcomm Claims Snapdragon X Elite 21% Faster Than Apple's M3 Chip

[Abazigal]

I saw your comments about consoles, so I thought it was part of the conversation.

Going back to Apple vertical integration, yes it's very nice but it doesn't cover every case, and I gave an example of it, gaming, and maybe it could extend to CAD / CAM and 3D apps, since Nvidia and AMD are far ahead of Apple in GPU performance. That was my point.

On gaming, I don't think it's a niche at all, considering the numbers we see from Sony, MS, Tencent and even Apple. And while I agree that most people play on smartphones, most of them are casual gamers. Console / PC gamers are very a different group of gamers, that prefer a high quality gaming experience.

It got me thinking.

In the light of this conversation, if we assume that Apple made a conscious decision right from the start to give up the gaming market so they could design their Macs to better cater to professionals, could their lack of gaming support then not be seen as a drawback, but an acceptable compromise?

For example, Apple may be satisfied enough with gaming on their mobile devices (at least from a revenue standpoint). Plus, they also have Apple Arcade, and in a worst-case scenario, their users can always get a gaming console like a switch or PS5.

Else, it does seem like Macs will never have the best gaming specs for the price, their market share remains small, and it feels like Mac users are generally resigned to not having any decent games to run on them.

 

[DeepIn2U]

And even the "fast" Rosetta was making some apps unusable. Looking at you, Android Studio...

I honestly don't know why anyone should get excited about Windows on ARM at this point. x86 chips have become good enough at least down to the ultrabook form factor:

The only good thing about Windows on ARM is that its existence keeps the pressure on Intel and AMD.

Maybe cause he's stated
Battery life - much better
Gaming - satisfied but overall not really impressive.

Maybe because the damage of intel upon themselves has been done?! New archetype- somewhat having no projection of improvements laid out as of yet and how easily COUOD this architecture stagnant again?! It's been 3 generariisn of core chips that didnt deliver up to their promises. Ans theie currnt CEO is making big claims yet to be delivered. Sorry 3 push-ups on stage isn't going to impress me nor related to theie chips.

More importantly are YOU investing in either of these 2 laptops? Have you put your money where your stake is?

 

[DeepIn2U]

It got me thinking.

In the light of this conversation, if we assume that Apple made a conscious decision right from the start to give up the gaming market so they could design their Macs to better cater to professionals, could their lack of gaming support then not be seen as a drawback, but an acceptable compromise?

For example, Apple may be satisfied enough with gaming on their mobile devices (at least from a revenue standpoint). Plus, they also have Apple Arcade, and in a worst-case scenario, their users can always get a gaming console like a switch or PS5.

Else, it does seem like Macs will never have the best gaming specs for the price, their market share remains small, and it feels like Mac users are generally resigned to not having any decent games to run on them.

Late catching up from page 3 so sorry If so.wone already addressed this.

Where have you been thr last 10yrs?
Apple HAS publicly made a stake ans claim that mobile gaming IS THEIR focus on ios and iPadOS primarily and has ever since. In Canda every week ios features app of the week or top 5 and always there is a game suggestion in the App Store. I'm willing to bet thats been thr case in USA, UK and many other countries as well.

This is also why the Xbox, PS4 & PS5 controllers have been supported.

 

[DeepIn2U]

LOL @ Qualcomm.

They spent all that time, money, energy, and hype only to try to compare their best chip to Apple’s worst.

And yet it takes them 80w to compete with Apple’s 20w?

Again. LOL

WHAT QUALCOMM IS AFRAID TO SAY IS THST THEIR REAL CONPETITOR FOR THEIR “elite” is Apple’s M3 Max, which utterly wiped the floor with it at the same power draw and then flushed it down the toilet, laughing the whole time.

Qualcomm tried to cherry pick and exposed themselves for not being able to compete in the efficient processor game. You do t compete against a chip and then need four times the power.

Their chip has more cores than m3 also. That’s where m3 max comes in.

In an apples to apples comparison, it’s not even a contest. It’s a joke. And this is apples ON THE MARKET tech. The Qualcomm lameness isn’t even out. When it is, M4 variants will be available and will be the actual competition, further dusting the horrendously underwhelming Qualcomm effort.

You're right.

Qualcomm was targeting the M1 during development yet found the M2/M2 Pro was equally a decent comparison. Just 1 spec of the M3 was being highlighted just over a month after theie announcement & launch of the Elite X.

Purchase of Nuvia shakeup of offices and moving of the team etc. And still in just over a year they've caught up to Apple's 2nd generation of SoC's and you call it a JOKE?!

1YR VS 2.3YRs to equal or closely match performance is a joke to you?

What I'm finding a joke is:
Apple has less transistors on the M3 Pro than the M2 Pro. Metal graphics performance is far too similar between the two. Apple LOWERED the system bandwidth from 200GB/S to 13xGB/sec on the m3 vs the M2 !!! All while the M3 Max did not double its bandwidth loke the M1 to M2 had.

This is VERY telling.
So did Apple's vision too far exceed their grasp or did their grasp far exceed their vision here?!
Look up MaxTech's latest video of the Space Black M3 Pro tests vs the M2 Pro there are a few misses by Apple there to start to wonder what's gonna happen woth the m4 series.
I don't think an M3 Ultra will happen or barely best the Max performance by more than 15%.

When those silicon executives left Aplle lots were quick to ridicule with don't let the door foot the butt on the way out type of commentary. Yet here we are. Not too shabby for a first attempt. Fall 2024 will be quite interesting from these 2.

 

[derek4484]

I do too but that’s a little bit of a special case. Let’s see how it works on native hardware running natively supposed to be able to do everything Windows does. From printing to virtualization. I don’t think it’s as finished as it seems when running it in Parallels. Parallels is running a specially modified build.

No it’s not. I downloaded my install file from the Windows Insider website. That’s where Parallels gets it from as well. M$ announced a couple months ago that it officially supported Win11 on Arm on Parallels. Parallels is the only officially supported VM by M$ for Mac.

 

[HawkTheHusky1902]

Arch Linux ARM - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ubuntu for ARM | Download | Ubuntu

Download Ubuntu Server for ARM with support for the very latest ARM-based server systems powered by certified 64-bit processors.

ubuntu.com

Debian GNU/Linux Installation Guide

This document contains installation instructions for the Debian GNU/Linux 12 system (codename bookworm), for the 64-bit ARM (arm64) architecture. It also contains pointers to more information and information on how to make the most of your new Debian system.

www.debian.org

So, as usual the issue will be device drivers for whatever computer they put the new chip into.

I know Linux exists, but the problem is that Linux just can't run many apps that i need. Adobe suite, etc. And Linux does not even have hardware accelerated browser video playback. As a main OS, even though my dad used it for 12 years straight as one, (lmfao), with good results, Linux just isn't it yet. And if you compare to the other OS which can run the apps i need, Windows... uhhh yeah no.

 

[jlnr]

More importantly are YOU investing in either of these 2 laptops? Have you put your money where your stake is?

I wish! Just bought a Linux laptop with an i7-13620H earlier this month. If I had waited for the new Arc graphics, it would have been good enough to replace my docked Steam Deck for casual 1080p gaming too. I need both Apple and x86 machines for work, and I'm glad that both have gotten much better since 2019.

 

[KPOM]

HA! Have you seen how Apple "cherry-picks" it's performance specs? The last dog-and-pony show for the M3 they compared to an M1 and not a M2 to make things look faster for the M3. The reality was, M3 wasn't much faster than M2. Everyone does it, even your dear Apple.

All the M3 processors are faster than the M2 equivalents. Even the M3Pro. The M3 Max is as fast or faster than the M2 Ultra at many tasks.

 

[amartinez1660]

The Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite SoC can't go into the same form factors at the same performance and a 80 Watt TDP compared to the M3.

The M3 is probably using 1/4th the power of the Snapdragon X Elite in that benchmark.

The performance per watt doesn't even compare. At the same 80 Watt TDP you should probably compare it to the M3 Max, which gets around 21,000 in Geekbench 🤷🏼‍♂️

And great GPU scores, and record lightning fast media encoding, and stutter free many streams of 5K+ vids running at the same time, and all the Machine Learning processing, etc etc… just the CPU multi core part is quite an incomplete statement.

I learned recently that the MetalFX temporal image upscaler (used in games like RE Village) runs on the neural engine and takes a whopping 20mW going full force at 60fps, that’s right, 0.02Watts

 

[Analog Kid]

"The company was founded in November 1990 as Advanced RISC Machines Ltd and structured as a joint venture between Acorn Computers, Apple, and VLSI Technology. "

Apple didn't start by making Arm chips, they started by making Arm itself.

@DeepIn2U, what about this factual statement backed by a citation did you disagree with?

Apple was using ARM2 in the late '80s and had forged a close enough relationship to form the ARM joint venture in 1990. Qualcomm was founded as a communications consultancy in '85 and barely existed while this was happening. Their focus was quickly popularizing CDMA based on their patents-- I can't see a reference to much Qualcomm Arm development until the late 90's.

Am I missing something?

 

[CarAnalogy]

No it’s not. I downloaded my install file from the Windows Insider website. That’s where Parallels gets it from as well. M$ announced a couple months ago that it officially supported Win11 on Arm on Parallels. Parallels is the only officially supported VM by M$ for Mac.

Yes that’s what I mean. They have a special deal. I don’t mean modified in any way except the licensing. It’s like the Windows 11 hardware entitlements when purchasing hardware from major OEMs. You can reinstall Windows all you want but if you install on a system without an entitlement from the motherboard you have to enter a license key.

 

[Maxis]

Late catching up from page 3 so sorry If so.wone already addressed this.

Where have you been thr last 10yrs?
Apple HAS publicly made a stake ans claim that mobile gaming IS THEIR focus on ios and iPadOS primarily and has ever since. In Canda every week ios features app of the week or top 5 and always there is a game suggestion in the App Store. I'm willing to bet thats been thr case in USA, UK and many other countries as well.

This is also why the Xbox, PS4 & PS5 controllers have been supported.

You are talking about two different platforms. Macs aren't for gaming, mobile devices are.

 

[sleeptodream]

I use Windows and macOS for work in a daily basis, and IMO, both are user friendly. Windows do some things better than macOS and viceversa. Apple may have a better integration with their hardware, while Windows has better integration with their enterprise ecosystem.

In gaming, there is no discussion, Windows is miles ahead of macOS.

I don't know what kind of Windows PC you had, but based in what I have seen in my customers, high end Windows devices work for many years without issues. Some of them have devices with +7 years working in their offices. At the same time, my previous two Apple devices only work for approximately 5 years. I hope my current MBA M2 works a little longer than that.

I have a Dell Latitude with a core i7 provided by work, which is terrible all around, from build quality to screen to the mic and speakers. I hate it with a burning passion. I have to restart it at least once a day because applications will just hang or it will have issues connecting to the VPN, or the webcam will stop working, etc. It seems to get worse with every update. I’ve never had a work Mac so I can’t really speak to that. Though I can’t imagine it being worse.

My gaming PC is a ROG Strix Scar with Ryzen 9 and a 3080. Much better build quality etc, but Windows is still not enjoyable. I’ve had to completely reinstall Windows 11 once already because it was acting up.

I’m sick of effing around with drivers and having to tweak a bunch of stuff, reinstall software when it breaks, reinstall Windows, tweak more stuff. It’s all a huge waste of time.

And UI-wise third party apps are nearly all an ugly mess, for some reason Windows devs don’t care about having a clean and cohesive look that blends in with the operating system. They all want to stand out it seems. Having multiple apps open at the same time looks like some sort of frankenstein OS cobbled together from different aesthetics and eras of computing.

I personally like when Apple does their big changes like dropping 32 bit, or PPC->Intel->AS, it forces devs to update their old apps, or they’re replaced by newcomers who bring something fresh to the table.

 

[AlmightyKang]

I mean there isn’t a single thing on macOS you can’t do on windows. If you enjoy over paying and constantly have zero expandability and significantly less longevity then that makes sense. Mac OS is prettier for sure.

Four things you can do only on macOS:

• Actually have a cloud and mobile device ecosystem that works properly and isn't crudely piggy backed on everyone else's efforts because you porked your entire mobile strategy two times in a row.
• Sit down and achieve the task you sat down to do without having to resolve an unrelated problem or sit through an update cycle you don't want.
• Complete your work before the machine turns the contents of your battery into heat and cooks your genitals.
• Eliminate stress-related male pattern baldness.

One of those is made up.

 

[DanVM]

I have a Dell Latitude with a core i7 provided by work, which is terrible all around, from build quality to screen to the mic and speakers. I hate it with a burning passion. I have to restart it at least once a day because applications will just hang or it will have issues connecting to the VPN, or the webcam will stop working, etc. It seems to get worse with every update. I’ve never had a work Mac so I can’t really speak to that. Though I can’t imagine it being worse.

My gaming PC is a ROG Strix Scar with Ryzen 9 and a 3080. Much better build quality etc, but Windows is still not enjoyable. I’ve had to completely reinstall Windows 11 once already because it was acting up.

I’m sick of effing around with drivers and having to tweak a bunch of stuff, reinstall software when it breaks, reinstall Windows, tweak more stuff. It’s all a huge waste of time.

And UI-wise third party apps are nearly all an ugly mess, for some reason Windows devs don’t care about having a clean and cohesive look that blends in with the operating system. They all want to stand out it seems. Having multiple apps open at the same time looks like some sort of frankenstein OS cobbled together from different aesthetics and eras of computing.

I personally like when Apple does their big changes like dropping 32 bit, or PPC->Intel->AS, it forces devs to update their old apps, or they’re replaced by newcomers who bring something fresh to the table.

My experience is very different from yours. I haven't reinstall a Windows OS for many years, and I use my PC in a daily basis. And the same can be said for hundreds of PCs I manage in my customers. The only difference from your case is that most, if not all of them use Lenovo ThinkPads. They have been very reliable. And the few that had problems, were serviced on-site. Neither had issues with drivers.

Regarding UI, I see Windows same as macOS. They both look very good, with some advantages and disadvantages. And personally I think Windows offers a better experience with multiples apps over macOS.

And I don't see how Apple dropping support for Intel or 32-bit apps has brought fresh things to macOS. I still see people using the same apps, MS Office, Adobe CC, DaVinci, Chrome, Final Cut and other old apps. Where I see newcomers growing is with web app / services, not native macOS apps.

 

[spcopsmac21]

You're basically repeating what I said, but with a bit more certainty than is warranted. The M4 may be out shortly after the Oryon, *if* Apple goes with a 1-year cadence. I hope they do, and if I had to bet I would bet that they will. But it's far from a sure thing. The Oryon will be out before the M4 though unless QC screws up *really* hard. That's extremely unlikely at this point, given that they're already showing working chips.

Also, as I said, your claim (and mine) is valid from an engineering standpoint, but if QC decides to sell this chip at a price point low enough that Windows laptop vendors can sell Oryon laptops at a price competitive with a MacBook Air, then their comparison has some justification. It *still* won't be able to compete on battery life for heavy-duty users, but it might well compete just fine for light work (email, most browsing, typical office apps, etc.).

On a pure engineering level, of course, their claims stink like the giant pile of bullsh*t they are.


No, it's not, and it wasn't. It's massively delayed, and it doesn't close the gap that much. The last 20% of the gap probably takes longer than the first 80%, and they're not even there yet.

All I know is my x64 based arm micro pc is finally letting me boot successfully into the latest Mac OS flavor.
The expansion and

Four things you can do only on macOS:

• Actually have a cloud and mobile device ecosystem that works properly and isn't crudely piggy backed on everyone else's efforts because you porked your entire mobile strategy two times in a row.
• Sit down and achieve the task you sat down to do without having to resolve an unrelated problem or sit through an update cycle you don't want.
• Complete your work before the machine turns the contents of your battery into heat and cooks your genitals.
• Eliminate stress-related male pattern baldness.

One of those is made up.

look four bullets points written by someone that’s not touched a pc in a decade. There is a reason Apple and its market share have started to shrink.

 

[AlmightyKang]

All I know is my x64 based arm micro pc is finally letting me boot successfully into the latest Mac OS flavor.
The expansion and

look four bullets points written by someone that’s not touched a pc in a decade. There is a reason Apple and its market share have started to shrink.

Um I've got three PCs sitting next to me running windows. A Dell Precision 7670. A Lenovo T14 gen 3 and a fairly hefty custom built 13700K + NVidia RTX 4070 jobby.

The market is not shrinking. Sales are. And that's mostly due to inflation, early recession and the fact that the M1 machines everyone bought are quite good enough.

And you can't call me out when you're confusing x64 and ARM... 🤦

 

[DEMinSoCAL]

All the M3 processors are faster than the M2 equivalents. Even the M3Pro. The M3 Max is as fast or faster than the M2 Ultra at many tasks.

Reading comprehension. I didn't say they weren't. I said that Apple specifically chose to compare to M1 chips to make the performance gains look bigger. Why else choose to compare to M1 instead of (as you say faster) M2?

 

[DeepIn2U]

Suspicious, because they didn't release the single-core speed. Also, the article doesn't say how many cores the Qualcom has. It's not hard to get a higher multi-core score than the M3 using a chip with lots of of low-performing cores.

SnapDragon Summitt Keynote:

Snapdragon Summit 2023: Keynote Livestream

Get ready to catch a wave of innovation. Watch the Snapdragon Summit keynote on October 24th, 2023, to see how Qualcomm continues to push the boundaries of w...

www.youtube.com

Snapdragon Compute Spotlight Day 2
X Elite starts at 34:00

Snapdragon Compute Spotlight: Day 2 Livestream

Join Kedar Kondap (SVP and GM of Compute and Gaming at Qualcomm) and guests on Day 2 of Snapdragon Summit as they dive deeper into Qualcomm’s latest tech inn...

www.youtube.com

 

[DeepIn2U]

Be aware, the OS and software are not even ready and optimized so it might be better if both OS and software are native and optimized just like Apple Silicon Mac.

So you're talking about Windows 11 for Arm - done. It's been out for almost 2years now.
Microsoft has Dev kits and IDEs running natively Virtual Basic, SQL server and management studio as well as C++/#/.net
DaVinci Resolve debuts 2024 for Windows ArM full features and functions as well. They announced this at the SnapDragon Summitt 30 days ago.

You'll see a LOT more applications go native as well. Microsoft has been working with Qualcomm on much lessor SoC's for almost 3yrs now they're pretty much ready.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Intel plays simlar games, comparing the MT performance of its 16-core 7165H to that of the 8-core M3, instead of the 12-core M3 Pro or 16-core M3 Max:


View attachment 2326533

Again this is Qualcomm's first major try to comoete eoth Aplle Silicon and their doing so on their 3rd version, same with Intel and it's a "game" because it's their lower end of Soc being compared?!

1st attempt vs 3rd and you're splitting hairs missing this major fact. Hmm.

 

[DeepIn2U]

@DeepIn2U, what about this factual statement backed by a citation did you disagree with?

Apple was using ARM2 in the late '80s and had forged a close enough relationship to form the ARM joint venture in 1990. Qualcomm was founded as a communications consultancy in '85 and barely existed while this was happening. Their focus was quickly popularizing CDMA based on their patents-- I can't see a reference to much Qualcomm Arm development until the late 90's.

Am I missing something?

It wasn't the citation I disagreed with. It was your opinion " Apple didn't start by making Arm chips, they started by making Arm itself."

Apple did NOT make the chips they invested. Also the perception of that option could've been skewed in term sof interpretation Apple began as a company more than 10yrs prior (but that's semantics, still I saw it that way too).

I've made similar mstake thinking X Elite was fabricated in house by Qualcomm yet I was wrong there.


Apple was using RISC chips in the 80's courtesy of IBM & Motorola for their computers only the Newton handheld used Arm cpu's and thsu completely different code than the Mac. Every PDA of the 80's used Arm as well as just about any cellphone in the very late 80's and onward. Even Intel made the XScale (via purchase originally) in POCKET PC devices - 1st Gen smartphones.

Edit. By stating facts Qualcomm began in 85 and 'barely existed' when Apple invented into Arm shows even more just how quickly Qualcomm has adapted. I don't get your blinded hate towards thr company vs celebrating they developed - yet to ship - a competing product for another platform. Its not like theyre computing eith Apple on Apple's OS' .

 

[sunny5]

So you're talking about Windows 11 for Arm - done. It's been out for almost 2years now.
Microsoft has Dev kits and IDEs running natively Virtual Basic, SQL server and management studio as well as C++/#/.net
DaVinci Resolve debuts 2024 for Windows ArM full features and functions as well. They announced this at the SnapDragon Summitt 30 days ago.

You'll see a LOT more applications go native as well. Microsoft has been working with Qualcomm on much lessor SoC's for almost 3yrs now they're pretty much ready.

Windows 11 is NOT meant for ARM OS and it's far from being ready. Being native does not mean OS is completely ready.

 

[spcopsmac21]

Um I've got three PCs sitting next to me running windows. A Dell Precision 7670. A Lenovo T14 gen 3 and a fairly hefty custom built 13700K + NVidia RTX 4070 jobby.

The market is not shrinking. Sales are. And that's mostly due to inflation, early recession and the fact that the M1 machines everyone bought are quite good enough.

And you can't call me out when you're confusing x64 and ARM... 🤦

After typing x86 and x64 forgive me for not typing xArm lol

Sales are shrinking. But apples laptop and desktop sales have been shrinking and shrinking for almost three years.
Way before the current economical issues.
And you are right. The first gen M1 systems are amazing. Hopefully they will be chugging along for years to come.



l

 

[DanVM]

Four things you can do only on macOS:

• Actually have a cloud and mobile device ecosystem that works properly and isn't crudely piggy backed on everyone else's efforts because you porked your entire mobile strategy two times in a row.
• Sit down and achieve the task you sat down to do without having to resolve an unrelated problem or sit through an update cycle you don't want.
• Complete your work before the machine turns the contents of your battery into heat and cooks your genitals.
• Eliminate stress-related male pattern baldness.

One of those is made up.

• I could agree with you about the mobile ecosystem, but not with cloud ecosystem. IMO, MS has done a better job, especially if you include the business ecosystem.
• MS have made many changes in Windows 11, and I haven't seen issues with update cycles.
• This could be true with some devices and some workloads, but it's not true in all cases.
• I need to do more research before responding to the last point. 😁