Questions about Soldered SSD's...

[Erasmus]

I'll lead by saying I think you're being a bit paranoid. Unless you are in charge of maintaining the secret identities of every spy on the planet, it would not be worth the time and effort of someone recovering the data on your HDD if you wipe it a few times by zeroing all the data. Based on the assumption that you are a middle-class average person, where the sum of all your worldly possessions, identity, etc. would likely be worth a couple of million at most. Just not worth it.

However, I will assume that technology is invented in the near future to recover data from zeroed HDDs cheaply (which is not impossible, at least not with old HDDs), and even SSDs (that I'm not sure IS possible, but I'll go along with it anyway).

Your best bet will be to go for a disk formatting utility that writes RANDOM bits to disk, which would be far more effective at destroying data than writing block ones or zeros. The whole point of repeatedly writing zeros to a disk is to attenuate the magnetic signatures of the old data to such a point where random fluctuations in the material overwhelm the original data. It is pretty obvious that adding an extra level of random noise would overwhelm the original data signature far more quickly.

I would also postulate that the storage density of modern HDD may well be getting to the point where it is impossible (in terms of fundamental quantum physics) for old data to be retained when it is written over.

 

[doubledee]

I'll lead by saying I think you're being a bit paranoid.

Until I have a data breach...

Unless you are in charge of maintaining the secret identities of every spy on the planet, it would not be worth the time and effort of someone recovering the data on your HDD if you wipe it a few times by zeroing all the data. Based on the assumption that you are a middle-class average person, where the sum of all your worldly possessions, identity, etc. would likely be worth a couple of million at most. Just not worth it.

I think you're missing some key points here...

1.) I am very content with how I "decommission" traditional (i.e. magnetic) HDD's which can be removed from my laptop.

2.) My concern is about SSD's moving forward - both removable and potentially soldered in the future. (And if another person says, "But the SSD is not soldered in the current MacBook Pro," I'm gonna SCREAM!!! I got that point!!)

3.) If you read the links I posted above - especially the research paper - it will open your eyes to a whole new world about the fundamental differences between magnetic drives (i.e. HDDs) and Flash drives (i.e. SSD).

4.) After you read that paper, you will see - assuming you trust the researchers - that you could get into a world of trouble with merely a Thumb Drive... (And, no, it would NOT take millions of dollars to recover data...)

Nothing personal, but like most people on this topic, I think you have a false sense of security - which is your right.

However, I will assume that technology is invented in the near future to recover data from zeroed HDDs cheaply (which is not impossible, at least not with old HDDs), and even SSDs (that I'm not sure IS possible, but I'll go along with it anyway).

You are talking about magnetic HDDs, which is not the purpose of this thread. But to follow this logic, from what I read several years ago, for under $400 you can recover data that has been zeroed out several times...

Your best bet will be to go for a disk formatting utility that writes RANDOM bits to disk, which would be far more effective at destroying data than writing block ones or zeros. The whole point of repeatedly writing zeros to a disk is to attenuate the magnetic signatures of the old data to such a point where random fluctuations in the material overwhelm the original data. It is pretty obvious that adding an extra level of random noise would overwhelm the original data signature far more quickly.

Or spend $10 and have someone crush it...

I would also postulate that the storage density of modern HDD may well be getting to the point where it is impossible (in terms of fundamental quantum physics) for old data to be retained when it is written over.

But that's neither true for HDDs nor SSDs.

Please try and read the research paper I posted above. (Everyone!)

While I'd give it a "C" in an English Comp class, and it is admittedly a "dry read", it is also the best free advice you'll get all month...

Sincerely,


Debbie

 

[spyguy10709]

Until I have a data breach...




I think you're missing some key points here...

1.) I am very content with how I "decommission" traditional (i.e. magnetic) HDD's which can be removed from my laptop.

2.) My concern is about SSD's moving forward - both removable and potentially soldered in the future. (And if another person says, "But the SSD is not soldered in the current MacBook Pro," I'm gonna SCREAM!!! I got that point!!)

3.) If you read the links I posted above - especially the research paper - it will open your eyes to a whole new world about the fundamental differences between magnetic drives (i.e. HDDs) and Flash drives (i.e. SSD).

4.) After you read that paper, you will see - assuming you trust the researchers - that you could get into a world of trouble with merely a Thumb Drive... (And, no, it would NOT take millions of dollars to recover data...)

Nothing personal, but like most people on this topic, I think you have a false sense of security - which is your right.

You are talking about magnetic HDDs, which is not the purpose of this thread. But to follow this logic, from what I read several years ago, for under $400 you can recover data that has been zeroed out several times...

Or spend $10 and have someone crush it...

But that's neither true for HDDs nor SSDs.

Please try and read the research paper I posted above. (Everyone!)

While I'd give it a "C" in an English Comp class, and it is admittedly a "dry read", it is also the best free advice you'll get all month...

Sincerely,


Debbie

Debbie - let me be frank.
The SSDs aren't soldered. They might be at some point. By that logic I might become the king of England.

Also - ask yourself this - who would want your data so badly that they would
1- procure a hard drive
2-dig through an old hard drive
3- use special software on that hard drive to get some (but not all) the data off it
??
You're paranoid about something that you don't need to be paranoid about. You're also being argumentative over a moot point.

----------

However, I will assume that technology is invented in the near future to recover data from zeroed HDDs cheaply (which is not impossible, at least not with old HDDs), and even SSDs (that I'm not sure IS possible, but I'll go along with it anyway).

Yeah and maybe someone will make a piece of software that will turn aluminum into gold. That's physically impossible with a 37 write 0 on a spinning HDD. I don't care what a "research paper" says because I can just as easily write one that supports what I'm saying.

----------

FileVault has been hacked, and isn't as secure as people think.

But obviously it is better than plain-text.

But my point was about if and when HDD are soldered in...

FileVault 1 was hacked but only with specialized hardware.

FileVault 2 is built upon 256bit AES encryption - which would take approximately 43 Billion YEARS to crack on the fastest computer NETWORK on the PLANET.

 

[doubledee]

Debbie - let me be frank.
The SSDs aren't soldered.

Any reason why people feel compelled to repeat that in every post??

I got that 10 posts ago!!! (Time to move along...)

Also - ask yourself this - who would want your data so badly that they would
1- procure a hard drive
2-dig through an old hard drive
3- use special software on that hard drive to get some (but not all) the data off it??

Not trying to be flippant here, but do you NOT read the news?

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that Identity-Theft, Data Breaches, and Cyber Attacks run rampant in this country. And since I have worked in IT for nearly 20 years, I'm quite aware of what the risks are.

(And while your data may not be of value to you, or criminals, mine IS...)

You're paranoid about something that you don't need to be paranoid about. You're also being argumentative over a moot point.

It's a moot point to want to protect my personal and business data??


----------

That's physically impossible with a 37 write 0 on a spinning HDD.

First of all, if you are not following the conversation, we are talking about SSD's, and how data persists differently on SDD's...

(The conversation is NOT about magnetic HDDs...)


Secondly, if you read the links I provided, you would see that SSD's are a different creature from traditional HDD's...


Thirdly, I don't have any issues with data on traditional HDD's...


Finally, while it is off-topic, your comment about "37 Write-To-Zeros" is unrealistic for something like a 750GB HDD, because it would take years to clear it...

I don't care what a "research paper" says because I can just as easily write one that supports what I'm saying.

Have you done actual Data Forensics on SSD's?

If so, then what did your research on SSD's find?

I can find lots of other sources that back up what the research paper above said.

Do you have proof to the contrary?


----------

FileVault 1 was hacked but only with specialized hardware.

I've heard others say they don't find it as secure as other FDE.

FileVault 2 is built upon 256bit AES encryption - which would take approximately 43 Billion YEARS to crack on the fastest computer NETWORK on the PLANET.

I have again heard others recommend using another FDE.

(I can't speak to this, as I haven't researched the topic yet, nor do I have any actual experience to say one way or the other.)


But back on topic about my concerns about SSD's and residual data...

Check out the links above, and then tell me what you think.

I found it very eye-opening!!

And, ironically, I am more worried about my Thumb-Drive that I *thought* was completely cleaned, but which probably has some really sensitive files still on it, as pointed out in that research paper.


Thank God my new MacBook Pro will have a removable magnetic HDD in it this go 'round!

Sincerely,


Debbie

 

[Orlandoech]

The SSDs are NOT soldered in.

And "if" you have a data breach, no one wants your data specifically, stop acting so sought after by hackers when in-fact you're not. Weigh the possibility vs probability factor here.

And PS
The SSDs are NOT soldered in.

 

[spyguy10709]

Any reason why people feel compelled to repeat that in every post??

I got that 10 posts ago!!! (Time to move along...)

LOL okay

Any reason why people feel compelled to repeat that in every post??

Not trying to be flippant here, but do you NOT read the news?

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that Identity-Theft, Data Breaches, and Cyber Attacks run rampant in this country. And since I have worked in IT for nearly 20 years, I'm quite aware of what the risks are.

(And while your data may not be of value to you, or criminals, mine IS...)

You're acting like someone out of their mind, imho. Do you NOT read the news? There are bombs going off in the streets! It's not safe out there! better wear pillow-suits to protect yourself! Trust me, as a cybersecurity auditor, a data theif wouldn't go through a dumpster looking for your data - it's already out there on the internet. I guarantee it.

It's a moot point to want to protect my personal and business data??

THE MOOT POINT - is that the SSD is REMOVABLE. there is NO REASON why ANYONE WOULD SOLDER AN SSD. it would raise production costs...

First of all, if you are not following the conversation, we are talking about SSD's, and how data persists differently on SDD's...

(The conversation is NOT about magnetic HDDs...)

Got that. Data doesn't persist after writing zeros ONCE on a SSD. If that's not good enough for you, blow up your computer when you're done with it and launch the fragments into outer space.

Secondly, if you read the links I provided, you would see that SSD's are a different creature from traditional HDD's...

Thirdly, I don't have any issues with data on traditional HDD's...

Finally, while it is off-topic, your comment about "37 Write-To-Zeros" is unrealistic for something like a 750GB HDD, because it would take years to clear it...

Once again, you're acting like someone who has NO CLUE of what their talking about. a 37 write zero op on a 750GB HDD would take approximately 41 hours. Not YEARS. Get out of town.

Have you done actual Data Forensics on SSD's?

If so, then what did your research on SSD's find?

I can find lots of other sources that back up what the research paper above said.

Do you have proof to the contrary?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have, and do.

http://www.unixmen.com/secure-erase-your-ssd/

I've heard others say they don't find it as secure as other FDE.

I've heard others say they don't like cherry ice cream. Factually that statement is incorrect.

I have again heard others recommend using another FDE.

(I can't speak to this, as I haven't researched the topic yet, nor do I have any actual experience to say one way or the other.)

Finally, you admit it.

But back on topic about my concerns about SSD's and residual data...

Check out the links above, and then tell me what you think.

I found it very eye-opening!!

I've found them to be fear-mongering over a false topic built upon a falsehood that NAND chips retain data. Go to wikipedia, read how NAND works, get back to me, mmk?

And, ironically, I am more worried about my Thumb-Drive that I *thought* was completely cleaned, but which probably has some really sensitive files still on it, as pointed out in that research paper.

That's not ironic... At all.

Thank God my new MacBook Pro will have a removable magnetic HDD in it this go 'round!

Sincerely,


Debbie

Thank God I've debunked this falsehood, yet you'll still be living in fear because of your keen ability to get suckered into a hyperbolic paper. Let me guess - you like Fox news and you think Bill O'Riley is a hero?

Sincerely,
Dave

 

[Mr MM]

You know one interesting thing? physical access to data is the least of worries if you are dealing with highly sensitive data.

You should be more concerned about data that can be readily available remotely from your pc.

When Im dealing with that, I eliminate either the network and/or internet, sometimes both.

Its much easier to hack into your pc, than to get your HDD from whatever you are or whoever you are working for

If you are dealing with sensitive data, you dont sell the electronic, you destroy the entire machine.

I dont really see your problem with SSD, if you want, just destroy it and get a new one as you have been doing.

people who deal with that kind of data, dont work with apple, they use secure chips like TPM, and some other measures

I dont really see the point of this thread, you knew that apple SSDs are not soldered from the point on, you made a new thread on the premise that you destroy your HDDs, good for you, dont see how that is actually applicable here or for any apple product, if you are looking for security, you have come to the wrong place

 

[Erasmus]

I don't think that Apple will solder the SSD in MBPs. They do with iOS devices, because they are generally on a 2 year cycle, so my guess is most people replace them before they would need to upgrade the storage space.

MBPs, like pretty much any computer, is more of a 4 year upgrade deal, where many users will want to upgrade to more storage medium after ~2 years. RAM might be different, because a decent SSD can practically supplement RAM, assuming 8-16GB is insufficient within the expected lifetime of the computer (which is very unlikely). On the other hand, I would suggest many people could easily fill over a TB of space, which is also clearly cost-prohibitive to provide that amount of SSD space at today's prices.

 

[doubledee]

Thank God I've debunked this falsehood, yet you'll still be living in fear because of your keen ability to get suckered into a hyperbolic paper. Let me guess - you like Fox news and you think Bill O'Riley is a hero?

Sincerely,
Dave

Now you're making things personal, and turning the conversation into something that sounds like a name-calling match on the grade-school playground...

I won't play into that.


Debbie

 

[simsaladimbamba]

Once again, you're acting like someone who has NO CLUE of what their talking about. a 37 write zero op on a 750GB HDD would take approximately 41 hours. Not YEARS. Get out of town.

That would be a constant write speed of 182.11 MB/s, platter based HDDs do not offer that, at least not the ones those pesky consumers use.
In real time it would probably take almost a week to write 1s and 0s to a 750 GB HDD for 35 times.

 

[johnnnw]

I'm starting to think this is a troll thread.

Maybe not, but I can't help but get the feeling.

Armybrat 2.0

----------

The SSDs are NOT soldered in.

And "if" you have a data breach, no one wants your data specifically, stop acting so sought after by hackers when in-fact you're not. Weigh the possibility vs probability factor here.

And PS
The SSDs are NOT soldered in.

Good post.


PSS: Remember Debbie, not soldered.




(not soldered)

 

[leman]

Check out the links above, and then tell me what you think.

I found it very eye-opening!!

The paper you quote clearly states that SSDs can be securely erased using the built-in command, just some implementations are buggy. You can't blame a protocol or technology if some manufacturers fail to implement it properly. Just don't use the SSD which does not provide a reliable safe erase option.

 

[spyguy10709]

That would be a constant write speed of 182.11 MB/s, platter based HDDs do not offer that, at least not the ones those pesky consumers use.
In real time it would probably take almost a week to write 1s and 0s to a 750 GB HDD for 35 times.

Yeah, no.
Today's platter based HDDs get around 100Mbit/sec 1s+0s.

It's feasable to get upto 250MBit/sec on a write 0 op.

 

[maflynn]

[MOD NOTE]
This thread has runs its course.