Quick question for storage in nMP (for musician)

aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
Hello all,

It's been the longest wait ever but the Mac Pro will be finally here tomorrow.

I am just wondering what the best solution would be for me regarding storage. I need more space than what the Mac Pro can offer so I am thinking about doing this:

- Drobo 5D
- 5 SSD 1TB each

Is this the best I can get? Clearly as you might have noticed it's not really a matter of $.

Please let me know if there's any other solution. I need 3-4 TB and fast streaming (I am a musician).

P.s. Is reading time on SSDs faster than 7200 rpm right? Sorry for my ignorance:eek:
 

comatory

macrumors 6502a
Apr 10, 2012
736
0
Hello all,

It's been the longest wait ever but the Mac Pro will be finally here tomorrow.

I am just wondering what the best solution would be for me regarding storage. I need more space than what the Mac Pro can offer so I am thinking about doing this:

- Drobo 5D
- 5 SSD 1TB each

Is this the best I can get? Clearly as you might have noticed it's not really a matter of $.

Please let me know if there's any other solution. I need 3-4 TB and fast streaming (I am a musician).

P.s. Is reading time on SSDs faster than 7200 rpm right? Sorry for my ignorance:eek:
Any SSD is way way faster than regular 7200rpm drive.Don't have experience with Drobo but I've heard Thunderbolt Promise chassis are great.

Anyway expect great performance because larger capacity SSDs are faster than the smaller ones, and when you RAID those it'll scream as hell.

Do some research and read how well it fares agains Promise stuff because that's what I'd get because of good rep.
 

aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
Any SSD is way way faster than regular 7200rpm drive.Don't have experience with Drobo but I've heard Thunderbolt Promise chassis are great.

Anyway expect great performance because larger capacity SSDs are faster than the smaller ones, and when you RAID those it'll scream as hell.

Do some research and read how well it fares agains Promise stuff because that's what I'd get because of good rep.
Thank you for your help I will research Promise chassis. If anyone has other suggestions I'm all ears :) Again, I need 3/4 TB of storage, possibly with fast reading speed.
 

ZnU

macrumors regular
May 24, 2006
171
0
Modern SSDs will give you upwards of 400-500 MB/s each, while 7200 RPM drives usually top out in the 110-140 MB/s range. However, those SSDs are totally wasted in a Drobo 5D, which seems to max out a bit over 200 MB/s from everything I've read — you'll get that speed loading it up with either SSDs or hard drives. If you really want to benefit from that SSD speed, you might consider a Pegasus2 R4. Load that up with SSDs, and with its Thunderbolt 2 interface you could plausibly push over 1500 MB/s. (Might want to wait for it to ship so there are real benchmarks, however.)

That said, for audio recording you probably don't need anything remotely like that bandwidth. How many channels of audio are you looking to simultaneously record/mix and at what quality?
 

aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
Modern SSDs will give you upwards of 400-500 MB/s each, while 7200 RPM drives usually top out in the 110-140 MB/s range. However, those SSDs are totally wasted in a Drobo 5D, which seems to max out a bit over 200 MB/s from everything I've read — you'll get that speed loading it up with either SSDs or hard drives. If you really want to benefit from that SSD speed, you might consider a Pegasus2 R4. Load that up with SSDs, and with its Thunderbolt 2 interface you could plausibly push over 1500 MB/s. (Might want to wait for it to ship so there are real benchmarks, however.)

That said, for audio recording you probably don't need anything remotely like that bandwidth. How many channels of audio are you looking to simultaneously record/mix and at what quality?
Thanks a lot!! I was really about to purchase a Drobo before posting on this forum. I really just want my sample libraries (orchestral instruments) to load fast. I'm actually not doing much recording at all, it's purely reading time to load all the instruments/template when I open it.

Am I nuts and should just go with 7200 drives?
 

VirtualRain

macrumors 603
Aug 1, 2008
6,304
115
Vancouver, BC
Hello all,

It's been the longest wait ever but the Mac Pro will be finally here tomorrow.

I am just wondering what the best solution would be for me regarding storage. I need more space than what the Mac Pro can offer so I am thinking about doing this:

- Drobo 5D
- 5 SSD 1TB each

Is this the best I can get? Clearly as you might have noticed it's not really a matter of $.

Please let me know if there's any other solution. I need 3-4 TB and fast streaming (I am a musician).

P.s. Is reading time on SSDs faster than 7200 rpm right? Sorry for my ignorance:eek:
By far the best solution would be a Promise Pegasus2 R4 (driveless) for $699...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/H...s2-r4-diskless-4bay-thunderbolt-2-raid-system

Don't even consider anything else if you want to max out a set of 4 SSDs. It will be wicked fast.
 

aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
By far the best solution would be a Promise Pegasus2 R4 (driveless) for $699...
http://store.apple.com/us/product/H...s2-r4-diskless-4bay-thunderbolt-2-raid-system

Don't even consider anything else if you want to max out a set of 4 SSDs.
Thank you all for your kind answers.. last question would be if SSDs are too much speed when in reality I only need to load samples/sounds and do very little recording? Thanks and happy Holidays!

Do you also mean 4 SSDs using some sort of RAID or JBOD?
 

VirtualRain

macrumors 603
Aug 1, 2008
6,304
115
Vancouver, BC
Thank you all for your kind answers.. last question would be if SSDs are too much speed when in reality I only need to load samples/sounds and do very little recording? Thanks and happy Holidays!
Ok, if you still want blazing fast, but don't really need the performance of SSDs, then I would consider a WD Duo product. I have one of the WD Velociraptor Duos that offers 2TB at near SSD speeds (350MB/s). If you bought two of those and RAID0 them together, you would have 4TB at 700MB/s... which would be stupid fast as well and cost a LOT less.

Alternatively, look at WD Thunderbolt Duos with larger drives... 4, 6, or 8TB of storage with 200+ MB/s.
 

aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
Ok, if you still want blazing fast, but don't really need the performance of SSDs, then I would consider a WD Duo product. I have one of the WD Velociraptor Duos that offers 2TB at near SSD speeds (350MB/s). If you bought two of those and RAID0 them together, you would have 4TB at 700MB/s... which would be stupid fast as well and cost a LOT less.

Alternatively, look at WD Thunderbolt Duos with larger drives... 4, 6, or 8TB of storage with 200+ MB/s.
VirtualRain, Thanks. Are those WD Velociraptor Duos noisy? I am considering buying 2 and RAID0 them (which I think would be through software somehow?)
 

cinealta

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2012
487
6
last question would be if SSDs are too much speed when in reality I only need to load samples/sounds and do very little recording? Thanks and happy Holidays!
I wouldn't use SSDs to record to. AFAIK, neither OSX nor TRIM support garbage collection on external SSDs. There have been numerous reports of SSDs, used for recording (constant writes) slowing down over time. Only people I know who use SSDs for recording consider SSDs disposable and simply replace every 6 mos or so. There are people recording 64 channels+, of 24-bit, 192Khz audio on scoring stages etc, directly to 7200 rpm platters with no problem.

SSDs will be convenient for sample library playback but how big is your library? Just Native Instruments, Omnisphere type stuff or custom orchestral libraries? There are major Hollywood composers playing back samples from multiple old Mac Pros, using Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP), from 7200 spinning drives.

What exactly are your bandwidth needs and what are you playing back? VirtualRain has good suggestions for external enclosures.
 

aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
I wouldn't use SSDs to record to. AFAIK, neither OSX nor TRIM support garbage collection on external SSDs. There have been numerous reports of SSDs, used for recording (constant writes) slowing down over time. Only people I know who use SSDs for recording consider SSDs disposable and simply replace every 6 mos or so. There are people recording 64 channels+, of 24-bit, 192Khz audio on scoring stages etc, directly to 7200 rpm platters with no problem.

SSDs will be convenient for sample library playback but how big is your library? Just Native Instruments, Omnisphere type stuff or custom orchestral libraries? There are major Hollywood composers playing back samples from multiple old Mac Pros, using Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP), from 7200 spinning drives.

What exactly are your bandwidth needs and what are you playing back? VirtualRain has good suggestions for external enclosures.
Thanks cinealta. Yes I have a lot of big sample libraries (hollywood strings etc) so yeah I guess loading times would be faster with SSDs or considering RAID0 on 7200/10000 rpm drives
 

cinealta

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2012
487
6
Thanks cinealta. Yes I have a lot of big sample libraries (hollywood strings etc) so yeah I guess loading times would be faster with SSDs or considering RAID0 on 7200/10000 rpm drives
Consider this if you need Thunderbolt:
http://oyendigital.com/hard-drives/store/RS-M4T.html

or if you can get away with USB 3.0:
http://oyendigital.com/hard-drives/store/3R5-EB3-M.html

Samsung 840 EVO SSD drives are relatively inexpensive these days:
http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electronics-EVO-Series-2-5-Inch-MZ-7TE250BW/dp/B00E3W1726

Good luck! Make some beautiful music. I'm doing the same thing and VirtualRain's advice has helped me a lot.
 

VirtualRain

macrumors 603
Aug 1, 2008
6,304
115
Vancouver, BC
VirtualRain, Thanks. Are those WD Velociraptor Duos noisy? I am considering buying 2 and RAID0 them (which I think would be through software somehow?)
Very quiet... I had one sitting next to my mouse on my desktop and I couldn't hear it. You can use OS X disk utility to set them up any way you like. They come setup as a RAID0 array... if you buy two, you can just setup a 4-disk RAID0 array in disk utility instead.
 

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aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
Very quiet... I had one sitting next to my mouse on my desktop and I couldn't hear it. You can use OS X disk utility to set them up any way you like. They come setup as a RAID0 array... if you buy two, you can just setup a 4-disk RAID0 array in disk utility instead.
You guys are great.. thanks. I just actually read RAID0 is pointless using SSDs so I might as well go with VirtualRain's option to get even faster speeds. Unless someone has a different option I'll go with that :) Thanks
 

cinealta

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2012
487
6
...I might as well go with VirtualRain's option to get even faster speeds. Unless someone has a different option I'll go with that
Yes, that looks like a great solution which I am also considering. Unfortunately we missed the Black Friday sale when it was approx $100 less.
 

VirtualRain

macrumors 603
Aug 1, 2008
6,304
115
Vancouver, BC
You guys are great.. thanks. I just actually read RAID0 is pointless using SSDs so I might as well go with VirtualRain's option to get even faster speeds. Unless someone has a different option I'll go with that :) Thanks
I'd never say that RAID0 with SSDs is pointless. You can never have fast enough storage IMHO. :D (although diminishing returns definitely kick in at some point).

It's really a matter of how much you want to spend and how much speed you want...

4x 1TB SSDs in Pegasus2 R4 costs $3000 and provides 2000 MB/s
2x 2TB WD VR Duos costs $1100 and provides 700 MB/s
1x 4TB WD TB Duo costs $500 and provides 200 MB/s

All of these provide 4TB of storage. Pick your poison. ;)
 

aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
Yes, that looks like a great solution which I am also considering. Unfortunately we missed the Black Friday sale when it was approx $100 less.
I see.. VirtualRain, if I may ask one more thing. Were you talking about RAID0 on each of them and then also RAID0 of both together? I'm not experienced with RAID etc. but I definitely get what you mean. I'm just asking because I see there are 2 drives in each of those enclosures so I'm wondering if they should also be RAID0

Ok great. I ll see what I can do with my budget once the MP is out! Thanks!!
 

cinealta

macrumors 6502
Dec 9, 2012
487
6
I just actually read RAID0 is pointless using SSDs
Actually, have you thought of maxing out RAM and loading your sample library directly into RAM? AFAIK, RAM is even faster than RAID SSDs (verify).

----------

Were you talking about RAID0 on each of them and then also RAID0 of both together? I'm not experienced with RAID etc. but I definitely get what you mean. I'm just asking because I see there are 2 drives in each of those enclosures so I'm wondering if they should also be RAID0
I'm not VirtualRain but AFAIK Raid0 splits your data across 2 drives for faster reading. So both drives would be assigned to the RAID0 array.
 

theSeb

macrumors 604
Aug 10, 2010
6,963
91
Poole, England
Actually, have you thought of maxing out RAM and loading your sample library directly into RAM? AFAIK, RAM is even faster than RAID SSDs (verify).



1866 MHz RAM peak transfer rate = ~ 15,000 MB/s

PCIe Flash Storage in nMP = ~1000 MB/s

Yes, RAM is faster than RAID SSDs.

----------

I see.. VirtualRain, if I may ask one more thing. Were you talking about RAID0 on each of them and then also RAID0 of both together? I'm not experienced with RAID etc. but I definitely get what you mean. I'm just asking because I see there are 2 drives in each of those enclosures so I'm wondering if they should also be RAID0

Ok great. I ll see what I can do with my budget once the MP is out! Thanks!!
He was talking about buying two enclosures. So each enclosure with 2 drives runs in RAID 0. Then he wants to combine the two enclosures (4 drives) into one RAID 0 volume.
 

VirtualRain

macrumors 603
Aug 1, 2008
6,304
115
Vancouver, BC
I see.. VirtualRain, if I may ask one more thing. Were you talking about RAID0 on each of them and then also RAID0 of both together? I'm not experienced with RAID etc. but I definitely get what you mean. I'm just asking because I see there are 2 drives in each of those enclosures so I'm wondering if they should also be RAID0

Ok great. I ll see what I can do with my budget once the MP is out! Thanks!!
Each Duo comes with pair of drives in a RAID0 array (already setup from the factory) which you can change in disk utility... so if you buy two, I would remove the existing RAID0 arrays from each (using disk utility), and then setup a new RAID0 array combining all four drives. Otherwise you end up with a RAID00 array which I've never tried, but it sounds silly. :eek:
 

theSeb

macrumors 604
Aug 10, 2010
6,963
91
Poole, England
I'd never say that RAID0 with SSDs is pointless. You can never have fast enough storage IMHO. :D (although diminishing returns definitely kick in at some point).

It's really a matter of how much you want to spend and how much speed you want...

4x 1TB SSDs in Pegasus2 R4 costs $3000 and provides 2000 MB/s
2x 2TB WD VR Duos costs $1100 and provides 700 MB/s
1x 4TB WD TB Duo costs $500 and provides 200 MB/s

All of these provide 4TB of storage. Pick your poison. ;)
The WD TB Duo can actually do up to 230/240 MB/s. It is slower than the slightly more expensive Lacie 2Big.


By the way, OP, I would not recommend RAID 0 for your use case, unless you have good backups of your sample library.

Here is a review of the WD Velociraptor Duo TB

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6216/western-digital-my-book-velociraptor-duo-review

Here is another review of the normal WD Duo TB that you should read

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5797/...lex-desk-and-western-digitals-thunderbolt-duo
 

iSee

macrumors 68040
Oct 25, 2004
3,525
253
There's one more thing to consider with spinning disks vs. SSD:

- The seek time with spinning disks is measured in milliseconds.
- SSD's have no seek time.

(seek time is how long it takes for the right spot on a spinning disk to come under the read head of the drive.)

I don't know how sample libraries are arranged but it's possible that an SSD would be considerably faster than spinning disks, no matter how fast the transfer speed. (It's also possible that it wouldn't be significantly faster -- it depends on how much seeking is involved and I have no idea for your sample libraries.)

Sorry to bring it up! But it sounds like your goal is the fastest possible regardless of cost (within reason). To get that you may have to consider more than just transfer speed.
 

theSeb

macrumors 604
Aug 10, 2010
6,963
91
Poole, England
There's one more thing to consider with spinning disks vs. SSD:

- The seek time with spinning disks is measured in milliseconds.
- SSD's have no seek time.

(seek time is how long it takes for the right spot on a spinning disk to come under the read head of the drive.)

I don't know how sample libraries are arranged but it's possible that an SSD would be considerably faster than spinning disks, no matter how fast the transfer speed. (It's also possible that it wouldn't be significantly faster -- it depends on how much seeking is involved and I have no idea for your sample libraries.)

Sorry to bring it up! But it sounds like your goal is the fastest possible regardless of cost (within reason). To get that you may have to consider more than just transfer speed.
I have not seen the OP mention which apps he is using, but this is worth a read

http://music.tutsplus.com/articles/...d-libraries-to-an-external-drive--audio-19567

I am ashamed to admit that I know very little about music apps and sample libraries, but using logic I don't see the need for RAID 0 solutions capable of fast sequential reads and writes. I see the need for a single fast external SSD, as I have already mentioned earlier in this thread.
 

aLfR3dd

macrumors member
Original poster
Apr 4, 2007
33
0
I have not seen the OP mention which apps he is using, but this is worth a read

http://music.tutsplus.com/articles/...d-libraries-to-an-external-drive--audio-19567

I am ashamed to admit that I know very little about music apps and sample libraries, but using logic I don't see the need for RAID 0 solutions capable of fast sequential reads and writes. I see the need for a single fast external SSD, as I have already mentioned earlier in this thread.
I use Cubase but why don't you see the need for RAID0 even if just for read? I mean 2000 MB/s (4 SSDs) is much faster than 500 MB/s (single drive)?
 

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