Quick thoughts (not another "no new mac pro thread")

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by slughead, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. slughead, Oct 27, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016

    slughead macrumors 68040

    slughead

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    #1
    1. Why so serious? 3 years this has been going on, why is this go-round the big tipping point for people going PC? I've already gone PC with most of my stuff, I'm actually just really wondering why this keynote was the lynchpin (serious question).

    2. Even though I don't think there will ever be an update (I think it's over and has been for a while), I must say Apple can throw up a "special event" a month prior to releasing a new update any time... So you few who still hold up hope... well don't let the lack of an event stop you. Macs are only a small percent of sales.. like they're going to do a whole show about their least-profitable product?? Maybe 10 years ago.

    3. Anything seem funny about having THREE thunderbolt 3 ports on a laptop? I think there's a good possibility Apple could actually start allowing TB3 breakout boxes for GPUs, which have been working great for PC. This would effectively make a macbook pro or even a Mac Mini (if it had a bunch of ports too) a decent editing rig, at least when it comes to GPU-based stuff.

    4. Just on the state of things: I (and others) told you so. We freaking called it: The proprietary video cards mean no upgrades for 3 years (probably forever), Thunderbolt is still more annoying and way more expensive than internal drives and PCIe slots (or internal everything, for that matter), STILL no external GPU for Mac, No goMac there will NOT be GPU upgrade kits for the trash can, the nMP is a loser which may have won the game back in '13 but ultimately was a loser just like the cube. No serious person is going to buy this lump of crap even if they make a new one because guess what: Apple will just screw them once again by waiting another 3 years.

    Where is tessalator?? I want to hear about those 32 external daisy chained GPUs he was going to use in his nMP! Flat five--again, those upgrade kits you were expecting, when is the ETA? Muahahah

    Feels good to be right, it would've felt better to have a decent Mac with PCIe slots, but I'll take it.
     
  2. Flint Ironstag macrumors 6502a

    Flint Ironstag

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    #2
    Gloat much?

    1. This is the tipping point because work loads have increased, and competitors who have upgraded their hardware may now hold a distinct advantage in getting their goods / services to market before us.

    2. There will be an update - grossly late, but it'll come.

    3. Yup, they seriously need to get off their collective posteriors and enable eGPU. Intel has been demonstrating this since Light Peak prototype days.

    4. Had to chuckle at the goMac jab. Poor guy. If they just took the shackles off TB, I could probably live with a fast, silent tube on my desktop. Daisy chain a couple of PCIE expansion chassis loaded with Xeon Phis and GTX 10x0s and I could live with that until the next refresh.

    The nMP didn't have to end up like this, Apple deliberately crippled it. Look no further than MacVidCards and the folks at Netkas who through sheer persistence and ingenuity have managed to cobble together eGPU solutions. This story could have been much different.

    Guess we'll see what happens in the coming months, but I can make money with an HP box now, so I'm getting one. If Apple sees the light, I'll move back. The system will pay for itself in short order.
     
  3. goMac, Oct 27, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016

    goMac macrumors 603

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    #3
    Ummmm what? I said when they announce new Mac Pros they'll probably announce an upgrade program. They did not announce new Mac Pros today.

    If they release new Mac Pros and no GPU upgrades I'll be wrong, but we aren't there yet?

    For what it's worth, I'm just telling you what I heard. That's what I've heard. And the things I heard about the 2013 were right, so I don't have a reason to doubt it. Just the messenger here.

    If you'd like, I can pm you something Slughead.
     
  4. slughead thread starter macrumors 68040

    slughead

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    #4

    I'd love to hear it! I am immensely skeptical that Apple would allow users to remove a heat sink from a GPU without voiding the warranty, especially when even cardmakers on the PC side that sell aftermarket watercooling solutions don't even allow that.

    As far as "if they released new mac pros" -- I must have missed that qualifier, my bad.
     
  5. Flint Ironstag macrumors 6502a

    Flint Ironstag

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    #5
    goMac, give it up man. Apple will NEVER offer GPU upgrades for the nMP.
     
  6. JimGoshorn macrumors 6502

    JimGoshorn

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    #6
    Speaking for myself, the decision wasn't made yesterday, it was made weeks ago after researching since the beginning of June. Yesterday just confirmed the likelihood that my decision was valid. On the main Mac page, there is no Mac Pro. On the FCPX page, there is no Mac Pro. Everything appears to be iMac and MacBook Pro as I expected a while back. At the very least, this signals where Apple thinks the future is going so even if they do have another Mac Pro, what future will it have?
     
  7. fathergll macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    Because it's a very scary idea to rely on a company who makes all of their money on smartphones to give priority to a niche Pro desktop market. Apple has already shown they have no problem trashing software like Apeture. It will be 4 years coming up and there are certain things that should happen every four years like the World Cup or Presidential elections. A company not updating a computer like that after 3 years or at least changing the price is completely ridiculous.

    Its pretty simple. Apple has been seriously trending their attention away from their Pro line up for 5/6 years i'd say and this is finally enough proof to users if if they continue to go with Apple then they will be in a eco system that is lowest priority of the company. This doesn't mean Apple won't put out some quality products BUT it does mean that you are at the whim of a company who is the biggest tech company in the world because of their mobile devices not desktop computers and Pro applications.

    IMO it really started with Final Cut Pro 7. In early 2011 people were on a 32 bit FCP 7 and then finally Apple releases the follow up to it ....FCPX. Great it's 64 bit but it's essentially crippled at the release and very different. Fast forward end of 2013 the nMP is released. Again Apple keeps the Pro users in the dark and bam they release a very cool product but to some it's a bit crippled with the inputs. Its now almost November 2016 and the same damn computer is being sold for the exact same amount of money(Mac Pro actually went up hundreds of dollars in Europe since it's release 3 years ago because Apple changed the EU conversion).

    I think this is maddening to users because Apple releasing a new smart phone every year is basically an engineering marvel with an incredible amount of resources going into it. The amount of effort in comparison for them to release an updated Mac Pro would be child's play in comparison. Obviously the amount of money being made with the Mac Pro is child's play in comparison so you know where their priority is at.
     
  8. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #8
    Upgrades don't have to be random end user driven. OWC has a turnkey upgrade program for older iMacs.

    https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnkey/iMac

    Ship in the iMac and it comes back upgraded. It is matter if Apple wants to jump into that model or not. There wouldn't be GPU cards floating out in the open market (replaced stuff goes to recycling). It would along the same lines as when send in a machine for warranty repairs. Apple has to have logistics for doing this (ship in, open, modify, and ship back) anyway. It is a matter of higher volume and pricing is worth it to Apple or not.


    It wouldn't be the cheapest possible solution, but it would be a solution for those where it made business sense. It also won't satisfy the tinker with my trusty screwdriver crowd.

    I would be very surprising to see them apply that to the 2013 model, but something new that had better mechanisms should work. That would work better during the several year drought between major system upgrades.
     
  9. MarkusL macrumors 6502

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    #9
    1. Different people have a different tipping point, and assuming some kind of random distribution there will be some point where the slope is greater. Maybe it's now, or maybe it's not? But it's no mystery that there will be a "common" tipping points at some time even if we all have different reasons.

    [​IMG]

    2. Apple's blatant misuse of the somewhat classic "Hello again" phrase led people to expect something more than just a laptop with an emoji bar. This may have caused more disappointment than a regular mostly empty press event.
     
  10. slughead thread starter macrumors 68040

    slughead

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    #10

    Actually this type of thing I could see. The biggest impediment is the heat sink (other than the fact that these new GPUs don't exist, and IMO will never exist), if they could make a modular heat sync where thermal paste would not have to be reapplied, a secondary market for GPU replacement would be a lot more popular/likely.

    I consider it a huge detriment to have to mail your machine in to swap out a video card which takes literally 2 minutes in just about any standard PC case.
     
  11. Flint Ironstag macrumors 6502a

    Flint Ironstag

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    #11
    deconstruct60 - I think you came up with this model more for mental masturbation than anything else. You and I know damn well Apple is not going to introduce any upgrade program of the sort. Their entire lineup has gone the way of "better buy the best one you can afford, because there are no user serviceable parts inside". Would not shock me if the next generation iMac had soldered RAM (isn't an educational market model already like that?)...

    eGPU is your upgrade path now, folks (Apple sanctioned or 3rd party). Better get used to it.

    MarkusL, it's been decades since my last calculus textbook was open - how about a key / legend for your graph for us dim folks.

    Thanks
     
  12. koyoot macrumors 601

    koyoot

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    #12
    As a slide technical point, not that I agree with anyone or disagree, however, if the GPUs would be connected through Coherent fabric, to increase communication bandwidth between them, any change could disrupt it. Maybe this is the thinking behind soldering the GPUs to the board?

    If you want to wait for anything, you can wait forever. Apple platform appears to be in constant work in progress, unable to be predicted 100%, and as reliable as other companies producing computers, for Enterprise use. Pro's can manage it.
     
  13. slughead thread starter macrumors 68040

    slughead

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    #13
    I think he's talking about just increasing the supply of replacement components after the presumably upgraded new Mac Pro is released. That way all it takes is for existing new Mac Pro owners to ship in their computers to an authorized place to have it upgraded.

    Of course this requires that not only the new model have similar connections as the old one which is unlikely and also that it be released at some point.

    One of the connections is the crossfire linkage which would obviously not be compatible with Nvidia's offerings.

    Also he pointed out that the old Mac Pro from 2013 would likely not be upgradable. They would have to substantively change the design to make video cards compatible between upgrade bumps.

    Given all that, I think what he saying could be true but I'm not sure if he's expressing the likelihood of that being the case.but I guess that's why you pointed out this is just mental masturbation
     
  14. SoyCapitanSoyCapitan macrumors 68040

    SoyCapitanSoyCapitan

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    #14
    eGPU isn't on the cards. The event confirmed Apple isn't interested in that or making monitors anymore.
     
  15. kamran1998 macrumors member

    kamran1998

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  16. Flint Ironstag macrumors 6502a

    Flint Ironstag

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    #16
    Apple may not be interested, but the demand exists, and I bet the aftermarket will cash in on it.
     
  17. slughead thread starter macrumors 68040

    slughead

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    #17
    They need cooperation with apple on the OS side, even windows is having small bugs.
     
  18. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #18
    For the rest of the Mac line up? No.

    However, if Apple fully has bought into a model where they only do upgrades every 3-4 years but still want to keep the Mac Pro on the market this may be something they need to do to stay viable. Mac Mini, laptops, and iMacs largely compete again other systems that also don't do major upgrades. Mac Pros do.

    If Apple is expecting users to have very slow upgrade cycles then "mid-stream" tweaks are increasingly needed to make it viable.

    If a significant block of Mac Pro customers told Apple that they would pay serious money to have it done, then it is viable. If nobody asks Apple to do it, then it won't happen. At a decent percentage it would be a revenue stream for Apple. I'm quite sure the bigger hiccup at Apple is the perception that most of the folks "screaming" upgrade GPU are the "trusty screwdriver" crowd. It is just as much as about doing the work themselves as it is about the increased GPU performance. Those folks won't pay. Too low a percentage of user market and it won't be profitable/viable.

    If you haven't noticed Apple is marking large investments in increasing services. This is a service+product.

    Midstream GPUs is also a chance to go back to the table with Nvidia and ask if they really want to sit out doing a custom GPU again on Apple's terms. If AMD remains the only taker than it lowers the risk profile it AMD has a better than average iteration between the major, extended Mac Pro update windows.


    The entry level 21" that is based on MBA parts already does. ( if based on laptop baseline design so does. )
    the Mini is a laptop derivative.... and is soldered.

    The iMacs that keep desktop processors probably won't because

    a. the baseline reference designs they get from Intel/AMD have so-DIMMs ( if that changes then ... )
    b. the "door" on the 27' iMac will probably stay. It is actually more space/volume efficient. iMacs do not maximize thinness where the so-DIMMss are placed in the design so it actually buys less than nothing to toss them.

    The 27" probably will if Intel (or AMD) keeps bumping up the max memory of the desktop processors that the iMac uses


    So far, Apple has not overtly jumped on the eGPU bandwagon.
     
  19. Zenithal macrumors 68040

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    #19
    External GPUs are still fairly expensive, even on the PC side. They're also new. PC wise, I built my current IB-E workstation (not a video editor btw, just love power) in 2014. My next rig will be including TB3/Type C and I hope I can grab breakout boxes then in addition to an SLI configuration for more processing power. If you're worried about Pros, I'd say wait a year. Apple might release something in spring or summer, going by their historical dates prior to the gen.II model.
    --- Post Merged, Oct 29, 2016 ---
    Any articles on that? I haven't seen much except the Asus unit at CES.
     
  20. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

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    #20
    eGPU requires some low level OS changes to do right ( Apple isn't going to ship some hacks that work most of the time.) There is only one Mac product ( different screen sizes really doesn't count when it comes to graphics ) with TB v3. The rest of the line up should change in 2017. macOS will change in 2017. that is more likely to be in synch with perhaps Apple jumping on board with eGPU.


    As far as monitors.... Apple hasn't made a dedicated monitor since 2008. In 2010 they started making docking stations that happened to be displays. Apple hasn't been into Mac Pro focused monitors for almost a decade. How many clues did you need?
     
  21. slughead, Oct 29, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016

    slughead thread starter macrumors 68040

    slughead

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    #21
    There are a bunch. Looks like Windows is doing Thunderbolt better than Apple :)
     
  22. Zenithal macrumors 68040

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    #22
    From what I've read, the Core is only an enclosure. And it costs $400. Then there's the cost of the card in question, which may set you back anywhere from $150-800 depending on what you want to stick in there. Ideally, Apple should introduce this in the next generation of macOS/OSX. I think if Apple still makes computer 10 years from now, we might see gaming come to Apple products. If not that, taking advantage of GPU processing power for resource intensive software.

    Though I suppose you can drop a Quadro M6000 card in there, too.
     
  23. slughead, Oct 29, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016

    slughead thread starter macrumors 68040

    slughead

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    #23
    Yeah it's new tech for now, I'm sure the price will drop (though most thunderbolt crap has been the same high price for years due to low economy of scale and competition, much as I predicted). For editors, this is not a bad deal (not nearly as good as a PC desktop... but if it's your work). For everyone else... not so much.

    FCPX, a GTX 1080 + Macbook is going to be more powerful and cheaper than a 2013 nMP trash can even with dual D700 -- at least if the code works right, I can't seem to find any benchmarks even on barefeats.
     
  24. Flint Ironstag macrumors 6502a

    Flint Ironstag

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    #24
    I do not see any nMP users crying out for a depot upgrade program (and neither do you!!!*). Nobody is going to want to ship their production machine off to Apple for a week or more to get a GPU upgrade. It's either embrace eGPU or switch to Dell, HP, Boxx, or Puget workstations.

    * I enjoy your insight and analysis - just can't figure out here if you're deliberately speculating on what's possible in La La Land vs. what is actually likely to happen, or what. Regardless, I'm enjoying all the discussion on this topic.

    Cheers


    Also, if Apple expects Mac Pro buyers to settle into a slower upgrade cycle, then they better make sure that the machine is configurable as a proper beast from day one (e.g. cMP tower with dual sockets and slots). As a prime example, it's why my nMP can't do VR, but my old tower can with a simple GPU update.
     
  25. slughead thread starter macrumors 68040

    slughead

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    #25

    And another thing on the price issue on external GPU enclosures: People who buy the maxed out MacbookPro will be paying $2500 for a computer with a horrible GPU. Anyone with that kind of money to burn on garbage could be willing to fork over more to have a computer capable of doing some real editing work.

    I posted this in another topic, just for comparison:
    my PC laptop is a year old but was $2,500 after upgrades, has a 4k touch screen, GTX 980M 8GB (> 3 tflop, the macbook pro 15" has 1.2-1.9Tflop ... until it thermalthrottles to a halt), 16gb RAM expandable to 32GB, has 256gb PCIe drive + 2.5" drive (I put in 1TB SSD using 2 minutes + phillips screwdriver, came with 1tb platter), USB-C and 3.1 type A, 2 headphone jacks, gigabit ethernet, i7-6820HK quad core, boosts to 4.1ghz ... no thermal throttling and a better warranty (on site. oh yes... not that I need it). Oh, and I can hook up an external GPU which supposedly works pretty well. I'm sure you can get something better these days, nowadays you can get laptops with a full PC GTX1080 in them! Just a taste of the PC side of "pro" these days (which I'm no expert in).
     

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