RAID inside mac pro ideas. possible? will it help?

[stefmesman]

Dear Members!

I just want answers on some questions. What i intent to do is.

Use 1 disc of 250GB for my apps and OS
Get 2 discs of 1TB on Raid 0 striped
And 1 disc of 2TB on Raid 1 mirroring the RAID config. above.

Is it possible to do all this software based with Hard disc utility?
Will it be much faster even thou i am making a mirror? or does this not slow down the process?

I am working on a
2x2.6Ghz mac pro 1,1
8GB Ram 667Ghz

software i use are Final cut studio 3 and After Effects cs5. I want to make a raid because i am planning on working alot with Prores 422 footage. Will i see benefits on using raid? The idea is to convert all incoming footage to prores 422 to work with. and to create a better workflow.

thanks in advance

 

[Hellhammer]

Yeah, I think RAIDing two 1TBs is a good idea as it theoretically doubles the speed. However, I wouldn't do RAID 1 because that is not a backup. If you accidentally delete a file, it will be deleted from the mirrored drive as well. You could just get a 2TB drive and then use Carbon Copy Cloner for example and set it to backup the RAID 0 setup and do incremental backups (if you add something, it will be backed up but nothing will be removed). It's more secure than RAID 1 is as it also takes care of accidental deletes and stuff.

 

[stefmesman]

Yeah, I think RAIDing two 1TBs is a good idea as it theoretically doubles the speed. However, I wouldn't do RAID 1 because that is not a backup. If you accidentally delete a file, it will be deleted from the mirrored drive as well. You could just get a 2TB drive and then use Carbon Copy Cloner for example and set it to backup the RAID 0 setup and do incremental backups (if you add something, it will be backed up but nothing will be removed). It's more secure than RAID 1 is as it also takes care of accidental deletes and stuff.

can you give me some more info on this Carbon Copy Cloner? is it something like time machine? software/hardware? I think it will fill up rapidly since we do alot of file production, we generate and delete up to 30gb-50gb per day. All im really worried about is a hard disc failing. And we should still be able to retrieve things from the bin right?

Thanks Hellhammer, you are in my eye's the mac guru on macrumors forum.

 

[gameface]

What you would want to do is RAID 0 the 2 drives and use the other 2TB drive as a time machine backup.

 

[Hellhammer]

can you give me some more info on this Carbon Copy Cloner? is it something like time machine? software/hardware? I think it will fill up rapidly since we do alot of file production, we generate and delete up to 30gb-50gb per day. All im really worried about is a hard disc failing. And we should still be able to retrieve things from the bin right?

Thanks Hellhammer, you are in my eye's the mac guru on macrumors forum.

It's like Time Machine with more customization, check it out! What do you mean by bin? The trash bin? If you move something there, it stays in the HD thus you have to empty the trash to get rid of it. Otherwise it's still eating up HD space. If you set CCC to do incremental backups, it will be in the backup HD even though you deleted it from the RAID setup.

You can also select CCC to delete the data from the backup if it doesn't exist in the source so if you delete something from the RAID 0 setup, it will be deleted from the backup as well (just like in RAID 1 but with CCC you have again more options).

If the backup drive fills up, you can just get a new one and use it for backing up the new stuff (e.g. create a new folder where you save all your new work and set CCC to backup that folder to the new drive).

 

[stefmesman]

It's like Time Machine with more customization, check it out! What do you mean by bin? The trash bin? If you move something there, it stays in the HD thus you have to empty the trash to get rid of it. Otherwise it's still eating up HD space. If you set CCC to do incremental backups, it will be in the backup HD even though you deleted it from the RAID setup.

You can also select CCC to delete the data from the backup if it doesn't exist in the source so if you delete something from the RAID 0 setup, it will be deleted from the backup as well (just like in RAID 1 but with CCC you have again more options).

If the backup drive fills up, you can just get a new one and use it for backing up the new stuff (e.g. create a new folder where you save all your new work and set CCC to backup that folder to the new drive).

yes i ment the trash bin. We usually delete the files we dont need. and at the end of the day check trough our bin if there isnt anything that we need. and empty it.

is CCC just as fast as using a Raid 1 mirror over the raid 0 striped discs?
Since raid 1 just writes the files double to 2 discs and CCC uses time schedules? Say im rendering a file. and its finished rendering it to the raid 0. raid 1 will have a copy of it within like double time (if ur using the full capacity speed) right? Wont CCC slow down my workflow because its backing my files at random times? thanks alot!

 

[Hellhammer]

yes i ment the trash bin. We usually delete the files we dont need. and at the end of the day check trough our bin if there isnt anything that we need. and empty it.

is CCC just as fast as using a Raid 1 mirror over the raid 0 striped discs?
Since raid 1 just writes the files double to 2 discs and CCC uses time schedules? Say im rendering a file. and its finished rendering it to the raid 0. raid 1 will have a copy of it within like double time (if ur using the full capacity speed) right? Wont CCC slow down my workflow because its backing my files? thanks alot!

You can set CCC to do backups on daily basis. Actually, SuperDuper may be even better because it lets you to decide the specific time when to do backups. For example, you could set it to backup your files at 9pm every night so it would not slow down your work when you're working.

Speed wise RAID 1 and backup utilities should be about the same, the HD will be the bottleneck

 

[Transporteur]

is CCC just as fast as using a Raid 1 mirror over the raid 0 striped discs?
Since raid 1 just writes the files double to 2 discs and CCC uses time schedules? Say im rendering a file. and its finished rendering it to the raid 0. raid 1 will have a copy of it within like double time (if ur using the full capacity speed) right? Wont CCC slow down my workflow because its backing my files? thanks alot!

You have to see the CCC process as a simple copy process. It nothing more than a rsync instance that copies files from your source drive to the designated target device. Apparently it can only do this once a source file is completely written to the source drive.

A RAID mirror however instantly starts to copy the files across the member drives.

Actually you can't set up CCC to backup your source every time a new file appears. What you can do is scheduling it (on hourly basis, daily, etc.), though.

As I said the clone process is rsync based, which doesn't require much CPU power, the drives however will be fully stretched out, based on the slowest drive, which in your case is the target drive (single HDD, approximate throughput 100MB/s). This, however, won't be a problem for your workflow unless you require the full 200MB/s write speed of your RAID 0 array all the time.

 

[Transporteur]

Actually, SuperDuper may be even better because it lets you to decide the specific time when to do backups. For example, you could set it to backup your files at 9pm every night so it would not slow down your work when you're working.

CCC can do this as well.

 

[Hellhammer]

CCC can do this as well.

Can it? I only see the options in the picture

 

[Transporteur]

Can it? I only see the options in the picture

Select daily basis and enter the time.

 

[Hellhammer]

Select daily basis and enter the time.

You're right lol. I've never tried that so didn't know about it My bad.

 

[stefmesman]

thank you guys! i guess that would be fine. a daily backup would be good. but ill have to think about if its really better in my case then just using a accurate raid 1 over it. and thanks also for the software suggestions. If anyone else has more suggestions. please feel free to respond. The thing i would use raid for is mostly to READ video layers fast. This may be a rookie question but. If im reading material from my Hard drive raid 0. does this also speed down my writing speed to the raid 1? or are read and write speeds separate?

 

[gameface]

I don't even know if you can do both simultaneously but if you can, the raid0 speed increase will be slowed by the raid1. You would see no beneficial r/w speeds.

How about 3 drives in a RAID5? Since you're keeping your backup on site (#1 mistake) it doesn't really matter. You would get more space for less money that way and it would run faster than a raid 1.

 

[stefmesman]

How about 3 drives in a RAID5?

3 drives need a raid card right?

 

[gameface]

3 drives need a raid card right?

They cost $40.

 

[Transporteur]

The thing i would use raid for is mostly to READ video layers fast. This may be a rookie question but. If im reading material from my Hard drive raid 0. does this also speed down my writing speed to the raid 1? or are read and write speeds separate?

Actually, although possible with a software RAID, I wouldn't touch a setup you're intending to do.

The RAID 0 is good for 200MB/s+ read and write, the single disc which is then used to create a RAID 1 from that maxes out at half that speed, which would mean that you're basically slowing down the RAID 0 set to 50%.

 

[Transporteur]

They cost $40.

No they don't.
A parity based array like a RAID 5 requires a proper RAID card and no software RAID. Prices for a Mac Pro compatible card start at about $300 and have the problem that the system won't be able to sleep properly any more.

 

[stefmesman]

They cost $40.

my slots are full

 

[stefmesman]

Actually, although possible with a software RAID, I wouldn't touch a setup you're intending to do.

The RAID 0 is good for 200MB/s+ read and write, the single disc which is then used to create a RAID 1 from that maxes out at half that speed, which would mean that you're basically slowing down the RAID 0 set to 50%.

to 50% for the time its backing up files. but, i do agree. when importing footage where talking about generating 40gb in just a matter of a few minutes. wich will need instant backing up. and will indeed slow down the raid config. do you think its better to just go with a daily backup? Is there a software with a back-up button wich i can just push at the moment i want it to back-up? so when im going for a break i just click it for back-up? in this way it would be more secure. but it would come in handy to also have a daily backup. in case we forget.

 

[Transporteur]

do you think its better to just go with a daily backup?

I do indeed. If required, do an hourly backup, or every two hours, whatever you like, but creating a mirrored set out of a single drive and a striped set doesn't seem like a good idea. I certainly wouldn't do it. It sounds like a stripped down RAID 0+1 or 10 setup (mirrored set out of two RAID 0, respectively striped set out of two RAID 1), which are perfectly fine and even work with the Mac Pros software RAID.

So if you're not satisfied with the option of a RAID 0 and a backup solution to a single drive, simply implement the proposed 0+1/10 setup (requires 4 similar sized drives).

 

[gameface]

to 50% for the time its backing up files. but, i do agree. when importing footage where talking about generating 40gb in just a matter of a few minutes. wich will need instant backing up. and will indeed slow down the raid config. do you think its better to just go with a daily backup? Is there a software with a back-up button wich i can just push at the moment i want it to back-up? so when im going for a break i just click it for back-up? in this way it would be more secure. but it would come in handy to also have a daily backup. in case we forget.

Yeah, its built into the OS like I said in my first post. Time machine works fine and you can do a backup whenever you want.

 

[stefmesman]

Yeah, its built into the OS like I said in my first post. Time machine works fine and you can do a backup whenever you want.

does time machine allow me to:
- Back up with the touch of a button
- back up automaticaly 1 time a day
- back up as a mirror.thus also delete files i deleted from the original hd?

if i need to retrieve anything important i will retrieve it from the bin. in 5 years work ive never lost anything due to just getting it back from the bin. i empty my bin only when im sure i do not need the files inside anymore. all my finished work i just store on External HD's for saving space. i dont need all my deleted things on there as well. (things converted to WMV for customer and then deleted for instance)

 

[Transporteur]

does time machine allow me to:
- Back up with the touch of a button
- back up automaticaly 1 time a day
- back up as a mirror.thus also delete files i deleted from the original hd?

- Yes.
- Kind of, it backs up constantly as long as the drive is connected.
- No, Time Machine keeps all files till the drive is full. It will then delete old backups. You can see it as kind of versioning.

 

[gameface]

does time machine allow me to:
- Back up with the touch of a button

Yes

- back up automaticaly 1 time a day

Yes

- back up as a mirror.thus also delete files i deleted from the original hd?

No. It backs up everything. Then the next time it backs up what changed. Then the next time it backs up what changed again and on and on until the drive is full. Then it just deletes old backups that are redundant continuing forward.

if i need to retrieve anything important i will retrieve it from the bin. in 5 years work ive never lost anything due to just getting it back from the bin. i empty my bin only when im sure i do not need the files inside anymore. all my finished work i just store on External HD's for saving space. i dont need all my deleted things on there as well. (things converted to WMV for customer and then deleted for instance)

If you backup to external anyway you should have an external that you use with timemachine and as you're packing up for the day have it run and bring the drive home with you. You are never backed up unless you have your backup off site which 90% of the people who think they are secure don't get.