Thank you very much nanofrog for your explanation!
I honestly never heard about that issue before.
I honestly never heard about that issue before.
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RAID setup 2009 Mac Pro
- Thread starter HighSeasCaptain
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It's not mentioned much as it's expected to be "common knowledge" for those well aquainted with proper RAID cards and want to use them in a Workstation environement (software RAID = main board, and Fake RAID controllers are still governed by the OS's functionality).
Remember, it's typically expected that a proper RAID card is operated in a server environement, where the Sleep function is NEVER used given those systems are operated in a 2/47/365 scenario.
Hello Nanofrog,
What would be your best recommendations to support the following scenario:
2008 Mac Pro (2.8 Ghz) with 6 or 4 WD Caviar Black 2 TB in hardware RAID 5, where I would never use a Windows installation and would never sleep the computer.
You were also mentioning such a setup benefiting from a UPS and surge protecter - do you have a recommendation for the UPS? Also, I heard something about WD drives not working well in a RAID, would I need the RE drives to make this work?
What would be your best recommendations to support the following scenario:
2008 Mac Pro (2.8 Ghz) with 6 or 4 WD Caviar Black 2 TB in hardware RAID 5, where I would never use a Windows installation and would never sleep the computer.
You were also mentioning such a setup benefiting from a UPS and surge protecter - do you have a recommendation for the UPS? Also, I heard something about WD drives not working well in a RAID, would I need the RE drives to make this work?
I second that, what would be a good UPS?
And also, you never made a comment on my usage of Samsung F3's, so I suspect they are satisfactory. However, I just want to make sure. From what I have read, they are the single fastest mechanical drive money can buy. I have seen tests where they outperform the Velociraptors and other 15k RPM SAS drives, as well as several SSD's on the market, all for only $90 a drive! (Though, if this information is incorrect, please do not laugh on me). Anyway, they have a MUCH higher score on PassMark, being higher rated than any other mechanical drive, only being beat out by SSD's: http://www.harddrivebenchmark.net/high_end_drives.html
And also, you never made a comment on my usage of Samsung F3's, so I suspect they are satisfactory. However, I just want to make sure. From what I have read, they are the single fastest mechanical drive money can buy. I have seen tests where they outperform the Velociraptors and other 15k RPM SAS drives, as well as several SSD's on the market, all for only $90 a drive! (Though, if this information is incorrect, please do not laugh on me). Anyway, they have a MUCH higher score on PassMark, being higher rated than any other mechanical drive, only being beat out by SSD's: http://www.harddrivebenchmark.net/high_end_drives.html
Always, always, always, check the HDD Compatibility List from the card vendor (I don't use manufacturer, as it may be an ODM supplied product).
When using a proper RAID card, you should use enterprise drives. They're built for it, which means they've different firmware (recovery timings are different from consumer drives), and they also have additional sensors, and better specs (i.e. most consumer drives have a Unrecoverable Bit Error of 1E14, while enterprise disks have a UBE of 1E15). The combination of all of this, makes for much more stable drives.
That said, there is a way to adjust the recovery timings on WD's drives (including the consumer models), via the TLER utility that can be found on the web. Just keep in mind, this only changes the firmware's timings. Now the drives do have a UBE of 1E15, but you're missing the additional sensors (which are there to prevent a physical crash - head smacks the platter, say in a high vibration environment, which is the case with RAID).
If you're looking for a 4 internal port card (and EFI bootable), I'd recommend the Areca ARC-1212 or even the Highpoint RR4310. Keep in mind however, Highpoint's support isn't wonderful (it downright sucks actually). So if you're not very familiar with RAID cards (particularly an issue with aquiring the correct version of EFI firmware), it might not be the best choice if you need to contact them. Fortunately, there are users here that can likely help you (have a card in that family).
Of the two, I'd go with Areca over Highpoint any day (even though Areca is the ODM for the RR43xx). Additional features that are well worth the money, and I've tested them out myself, so I know they're stable.
If you need more ports or RAID levels (future expansion), I'd need to know.
As per a UPS, I usually stick with APC. The SmartUPS is a better line to go with, but they do cost more. SmartUPS's always run off of the battery, so there's no switching required.
That said, I'm currently using a BackUPS BR1500LCD, which is a switched model (runs off of the wall, then switches to the battery when the voltage drops below it's set limit). The LCD screen is handy too. I've tested this one out with a couple of Areca's I have, and it's been fine (no problems occured).
See above.
I haven't checked it against the lists of the card (I actually would need the exact drive P/N). So DO NOT assume it will work. Check it against the HDD Compatibility List. Seriously. If you don't, you run a strong risk of it being unstable (more dangerous IMO, as you can be led to think the array is fine when it's not) or not even able to initialize the array.
The F3's are going to be running in softRAID through OS X and not the card. The SSD's will be on the card, and the 4 F3's will be in the sleds connected to the Logicboard and then the RAID will be configured in OS X. Could I still run into problems? Is there a Mac Pro SoftRAID compatibility list?
Sorry, I had forgotten the F3's would be on the logic board (I get into a lot of RAID posts, and it gets confusing at times).
At any rate, there's no list, and it doesn't matter. You'll be fine with those drives (or any consumer or enterprise models), as the OS has complete control over them.
The card will have total control of the SSD's, and is why compatibility is critical.
Thank you nanofrog!
And just one more thing, like you said there is a wealth of PCI cards for eSATA out there, but I just want a nice, fast, affordable one. Could you recommend a good one?
I was thinking about this one because it's cheap and has PM: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/PCIESATA2/
And this one since it has 4 ports:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Firmtek/SATA2ME4E/
And just one more thing, like you said there is a wealth of PCI cards for eSATA out there, but I just want a nice, fast, affordable one. Could you recommend a good one?
I was thinking about this one because it's cheap and has PM: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/PCIESATA2/
And this one since it has 4 ports:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Firmtek/SATA2ME4E/
This one could work, but here's one using the same chip (SIL3132), has the ability to configure the ports to 2+0, 0+2 or 1+1 (internal, external), and is cheaper. It also supports Hot Swap and Port Multiplier enclosures (some don't, such as newertech, which doesn't require additional drivers).
Silicon Image has drivers here. Some users have had issues with drivers here and there (newer versions are out now), and you can also try other drivers if you have to (i.e. FirmTek, Sans Digital, or Sonnet).
It's only a 2 port card, and seems way too pricey.
The Highpoint 622 doesn't have their Mac drivers out yet last I checked, so that one's out (unless they get the drivers out, and someone confirms it actually works). But it and the newer tech cards are ~$60USD anyway (both use the default SATA drivers in OS X).
I retardedly posted that link and meant to post this one: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Firmtek/SATA2ME4E/
I did with an edit but you replied so quickly you didn't see the correction
Thanks!!!
Ah. This one is a nice card as well, but it's pricey. If you want/need 4 ports, then go for it, as it does work.I retardedly posted that link and meant to post this one: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Firmtek/SATA2ME4E/
I did with an edit but you replied so quickly you didn't see the correction
Thanks!!!
Well, you have to add in the $9.98USD for shipping ($13.47USD total), but yes.
Just keep in mind the description is inaccurate; it says it's a 4 port card, but it's only a 2 port card (SIL3132 = 2 port capability ONLY). You have the ability to configure it though which is really nice (the only SATA card I've seen in PCIe that works in a Mac once configured for it via jumpers, and only under driver support; it will boot Windows though). Everything else is eSATA.
Does it have PM capability? And what do you mean it's 2 port only? Can you not use both 2 internal and 2 external ports?
And did you mean it does or does not boot Windows?
And did you mean it does or does not boot Windows?
The SIL3132 chip is Port Multiplier capable. Not all cards are though (newertech is one such card).
SIL3132 chip = 2 port card ONLY (actually functional). The ports on the card I lined (eBay) are so you can configure it how you wish:
2 Internal + 0 External = 2 ports total
2 External + 0 Internal = 2 ports total
1 Internal + 1 External = 2 ports total
You CANNOT use all 4x ports at once (2x ONLY). They must be set using the jumpers to achieve the above configurations.
Most of the SIL3132 cards are eSATA only, and the model I linked is unique as you can configure it as you wish. Handy IMO. Combine the configuration capabilities with it's low cost, it seems an incredible value, given what other cards are selling for.
Hope this clears things up.
It WILL boot Windows, as it has BIOS. OS X OTOH, is driver operation only.
Excellent! Sounds like I found my card Thank you so much nanofrog!!!
Even though I won't be installing that card for awhile, I think I'm going to order it now just to make a jump on it's insane affordability.
Thank you so much nanofrog!!!Even though I won't be installing that card for awhile, I think I'm going to order it now just to make a jump on it's insane affordability.
Excellent! Sounds like I found my card
Even though I won't be installing that card for awhile, I think I'm going to order it now just to make a jump on it's insane affordability.
NP. Sorry to dumb down this conversation a bit, but....
I've been drooling over the start up and application launch speeds the guys with MacBookPro's and SSD boot drives are achieving. I'd love to not have to wait an hour for Final Cut Pro to launch for example. So I asked an Apple tech if there was a way to configure a new Mac Pro (I'm waiting for the mythical 12-core too!) with a built-in SSD. He said it really wasn't a good idea. He recommend two standard hard drives striped together into a RAID. He said that if I simply added a second internal hard drive to my custom configuration, I could use Disc Utility to reformat them together as a 2-drive RAID and then reinstall the operating system. He said that this setup would be faster and more reliable than a single SSD drive. Is this a good way to go?
I have a nice external RAID setup for mass storage. I'm just looking for a boot drive that will launch applications much faster for everyday use. If not, I'll just stick with the stock single drive configuration. Thanks in advance!
I've been drooling over the start up and application launch speeds the guys with MacBookPro's and SSD boot drives are achieving. I'd love to not have to wait an hour for Final Cut Pro to launch for example. So I asked an Apple tech if there was a way to configure a new Mac Pro (I'm waiting for the mythical 12-core too!) with a built-in SSD. He said it really wasn't a good idea. He recommend two standard hard drives striped together into a RAID. He said that if I simply added a second internal hard drive to my custom configuration, I could use Disc Utility to reformat them together as a 2-drive RAID and then reinstall the operating system. He said that this setup would be faster and more reliable than a single SSD drive. Is this a good way to go?
I have a nice external RAID setup for mass storage. I'm just looking for a boot drive that will launch applications much faster for everyday use. If not, I'll just stick with the stock single drive configuration. Thanks in advance!
You can go with either a stripe set of mechanical or SSD. Just make sure that you've enough RAM to reduce the need (if not eliminate) for scratch space, and make sure that if such space is needed, it's performed on a mechanical drive or array (where a stripe set is useful).I've been drooling over the start up and application launch speeds the guys with MacBookPro's and SSD boot drives are achieving. I'd love to not have to wait an hour for Final Cut Pro to launch for example. So I asked an Apple tech if there was a way to configure a new Mac Pro (I'm waiting for the mythical 12-core too!) with a built-in SSD. He said it really wasn't a good idea. He recommend two standard hard drives striped together into a RAID. He said that if I simply added a second internal hard drive to my custom configuration, I could use Disc Utility to reformat them together as a 2-drive RAID and then reinstall the operating system. He said that this setup would be faster and more reliable than a single SSD drive. Is this a good way to go?
I have a nice external RAID setup for mass storage. I'm just looking for a boot drive that will launch applications much faster for everyday use. If not, I'll just stick with the stock single drive configuration. Thanks in advance!
It has to do with the wear and performance issues that can face SSD (search garbage collection and TRIM for performace, and how wear leveling affects cell write cycle lifespan).
Question for the almighty and amazingly knowledgeable nanofrog:
I was planning on striping 4 SSD's for my system drive for maximum performance. But I've read some places that for just OSX and applications, striping 4 super fast drives like that will not enhance the performance by that large a margin, but would be beneficial if I were using them as a scratch disc among other things. I don't know how true any of this is, by the way, which is why I'm asking you.
Would I be better off getting maybe just 1 Colossus SSD (or Patriot Torqx) instead of 4x Intel X25-E's? Will the performance comparison be negligible? And if you recommend just 1 drive, what do you think the best fastest decent capacity SSD option would be (price not being an issue)?
I was planning on striping 4 SSD's for my system drive for maximum performance. But I've read some places that for just OSX and applications, striping 4 super fast drives like that will not enhance the performance by that large a margin, but would be beneficial if I were using them as a scratch disc among other things. I don't know how true any of this is, by the way, which is why I'm asking you.
Would I be better off getting maybe just 1 Colossus SSD (or Patriot Torqx) instead of 4x Intel X25-E's? Will the performance comparison be negligible? And if you recommend just 1 drive, what do you think the best fastest decent capacity SSD option would be (price not being an issue)?
I would NOT put scratch on SSD's, given they're not the best drives for high write conditions IMO (too premature, particularly MLC based drives). SLC is better, but it's really expensive.
I'd put the OS and applications on either a single SSD or pair (2x disk stripe set; it's faster, but there's a point, and rather quickly, you won't really benefit from increasing the drive count, especially once you consider the cost), and both data and scratch on mechanical drives.
That was the plan -- SSD's will be solely dedicated for the system. I will be using mechanical for editing. This will be a machine for editing RED mostly and VFX. I need mechanical for scratch because those files are just too big anyways.
Though 2x X-25E's won't cut it with 64gb. I have so many applications for what I do that it'll fill up probably the day I get it without any breathing room. Looks like I might just get 4 anyways!
Though 2x X-25E's won't cut it with 64gb. I have so many applications for what I do that it'll fill up probably the day I get it without any breathing room. Looks like I might just get 4 anyways!
If you make a stripe set with 4x of those, just make sure you've a fast enough processor on the RAID card. Say an RR43xx on the cheap side (Areca is the ODM, but Highpoint's support absolutely sucks, so there's a compromise for getting it), or better yet, one of the Areca ARC-1680 series. Both use the same 1200MHz Intel IOP processor.
There's others too, such as the ARC-1212 (800MHz), and even the ARC-12xxML series (SATA not SAS, also 800MHz, but it's not the same IOP family, as they differ from SAS and SATA versions; 348 and 341 series respectively).
For 4x SSD's, I wouldn't go under 800MHz, even though a stripe set doesn't generate much stress on the processors. The reason is, the inexpensive ARC-1210 can handle 2x, but not 4x very well (it throttles with more than 2x fast SSD's). They still list the IOP332 as the processor used (single core, 800MHz), but I'm thinking they've gone to the IOP333 (800MHz dual core), as the IOP332 has been discontinued. If it can be confirmed that the ARC-1210 is actually using this chip, it might be able to handle it now, but I wouldn't depend on that. Keep in mind, there's also differences in the cores too (ARM based BTW).
Thanks nanofrog!
I can see how much you post, because we've discussed everything you mentioned in this thread a few weeks ago But it's okay, it's just good to hear you are consistently guiding me in the right direction!
I'm already pretty set on the RR 4321 or 4310 (but honestly because of you I'm pretty sure I'll be getting an ARC-1212). Oh! And I also got that 4 port SATA/eSATA card that you recommended me to (the one where only 2 ports can be enabled). It came from Hong Kong so it took a couple weeks (I didn't know that at first and was wondering if it was ever going to get here). I can't speak to its quality, as I'm still waiting for this damn 2010 MP. Let's hope for Tuesday so I can start having some fun!
I can see how much you post, because we've discussed everything you mentioned in this thread a few weeks ago
But it's okay, it's just good to hear you are consistently guiding me in the right direction! I'm already pretty set on the RR 4321 or 4310 (but honestly because of you I'm pretty sure I'll be getting an ARC-1212). Oh! And I also got that 4 port SATA/eSATA card that you recommended me to (the one where only 2 ports can be enabled). It came from Hong Kong so it took a couple weeks (I didn't know that at first and was wondering if it was ever going to get here). I can't speak to its quality, as I'm still waiting for this damn 2010 MP. Let's hope for Tuesday so I can start having some fun!
Actually when reading up it looks like the 4310 and the ARC-1212 are only 800MHZ, but the 4321 is 1.2GHZ.
interesting. i wonder what the different frequencies of the card indicates. nano?