'Real Time' Surveillance and Breakable Encryption Proposed in U.K. Government Technical Paper

[JGRE]

Let's leave a lives in the hands of some tech savvy government employees who still life in the eighties regarding their IT level, that is going to solve everything. LOL
[doublepost=1494175411][/doublepost]If terrorist cannot encrypt the communication, they simply will encrypt the message content itself, nobody can stop this. Government people are sooo stupid.
[doublepost=1494175470][/doublepost]

How about let's apply this to the politicians for a few years first. Hillary in the US and Macron in France didn't seem to like it.

Of course this only applies to us, not them....
[doublepost=1494175715][/doublepost]

This is why when a 'lone operator' apparent attack happens in the UK (like the Whitehall one a month ago), I completely shut off when the news starts reporting politicians saying 'this is an example of why our security services need better access to communications from the bad people'.

Not at the expense of mine and everyone else's right to privacy it doesn't. Who are they trying to kid here. Lone ranger attacks will happen regardless of mass surveillance of the population.

It took them 10 years to get OBL, because OBL did not use IT for communication, neder will any terrorist inform his mates via facebook or WhatsApp.
[doublepost=1494175991][/doublepost]

I love how some have brought up Brexit
Any excuse for remoaners to moan eh?

And I'm all for this, this will not lead to the failure of encryption services, that's BS being fed from companies to protect their public image and keep their customer base and profit margins, they know damn well it'll change nothing.

Access must be granted by a judge and others before a request is made for the data. And that's how it is now. They'll just get more of it faster unencrypted and they'll be able to act faster on terrorists and peodophiles etc. If you want total security and anonymity without these acts to gain access to the data, then you MUST accept that this will also be given to terrorists and peodophiles etc etc in the same way. Something that some on here seem more then comfortable with

You all happily use freemium apps who collect and sell your data to anyone without telling you or anyone else, and yet when it comes to a law that dictates a judge and MPs have to grant access to your data, after being presented with a case for doing so which will have to prove your breaking the law or are harming people, then you flat out refuse to support it... yeah what super evil governments they are protecting your security...

Pot kettle black IMO.

Yes, we most all be forced into glas houses with our drapes, so nobody can hide anything anymore. Our income, spending, hobbies and sexuality should be on a bill board front of our house........ LOL

 

[2010mini]

All I see is the usual 'American' scaremongering because you'd sooner trust a serial killer then your own government...

Their is a HUGE difference in attitudes towards this with the UK and the US, and you ARE essentially going to be comfortable with peodophiles rings and terrorists using the same services you are, it's a fact, but you don't want laws in place to catch them and you'd rather those types of people had the same protection as you do...

I mean you lot go nuclear mental at the mere thought of a Police officer having the right to force you to use your finger and unlock your phone... ignoring the fact they would have to have probable cause to make you do that in the first place....
[doublepost=1494171545][/doublepost]

Oh you mean the guy who stole information on USB stick from inside the NSA building and passed it on.... something that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS STORY!

Oh yeah I'm dense... I mean how stupid am I to assume those working at your NSA are veted and believe in America and it's security and the constitution, right?

Those who want safety at the expense of liberty deserve neither. Police have been successful at catching criminals for centuries without the need to violate everyone's privacy. You want to use the excuse that it is ok for government to violate everyone's freedoms to catch the few. Remember one thing: when you give government new powers, they will never give it back. And history has shown those new powers have always been abused.

 

[JGRE]

All I see is the usual 'American' scaremongering because you'd sooner trust a serial killer then your own government...

Their is a HUGE difference in attitudes towards this with the UK and the US, and you ARE essentially going to be comfortable with peodophiles rings and terrorists using the same services you are, it's a fact, but you don't want laws in place to catch them and you'd rather those types of people had the same protection as you do...

I mean you lot go nuclear mental at the mere thought of a Police officer having the right to force you to use your finger and unlock your phone... ignoring the fact they would have to have probable cause to make you do that in the first place....
[doublepost=1494171545][/doublepost]

Oh you mean the guy who stole information on USB stick from inside the NSA building and passed it on.... something that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS STORY!

Oh yeah I'm dense... I mean how stupid am I to assume those working at your NSA are veted and believe in America and it's security and the constitution, right?

There is a big difference having a judge unlock your phone, compared to having a leaky government having access to all communication (without any judge involved).

All I see is the usual 'American' scaremongering because you'd sooner trust a serial killer then your own government...

Their is a HUGE difference in attitudes towards this with the UK and the US, and you ARE essentially going to be comfortable with peodophiles rings and terrorists using the same services you are, it's a fact, but you don't want laws in place to catch them and you'd rather those types of people had the same protection as you do...

I mean you lot go nuclear mental at the mere thought of a Police officer having the right to force you to use your finger and unlock your phone... ignoring the fact they would have to have probable cause to make you do that in the first place....
[doublepost=1494171545][/doublepost]

Oh you mean the guy who stole information on USB stick from inside the NSA building and passed it on.... something that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS STORY!

Oh yeah I'm dense... I mean how stupid am I to assume those working at your NSA are veted and believe in America and it's security and the constitution, right?

If the government can decrypt our communication, so will any bad guy in half the time. Next to this, it has been proven many times that the government is no more to be trusted than these bad guys. Pedophiles haven been found in hight places in government in the past, there are and were several cases in the Netherlands. Next to this, after being in office, politicians tend to go back in business afterwards, taking a huge pile on decrypted information to beat the competition. Donald Trump is a business for most of his live and a president for just a bit more ten 100 days. How are business supposed to protect their IPR, if everybody can watch along? What about secret government communication, as the bad guys have this same back door? You open this can of worms and there will be no end to it.

 

[groovyd]

easy to say they have to do this but how do you actually decrypt all this end to end secured traffic? isn't this the whole point of security?

 

[sudo1996]

I normally don't care who looks at my personal messages as long as bank accounts and such aren't involved. And I usually don't care about the government seeing my sensitive info except that it makes it easier for hackers to grab it; I think all gov't organizations are plain stupid and will get hacked. But this is scarier than what we've seen in the U.S. because the U.K. does prosecute people for their speech.
[doublepost=1494180289][/doublepost]

Let's leave a lives in the hands of some tech savvy government employees who still life in the eighties regarding their IT level, that is going to solve everything. LOL

Seriously, not just IT but programming and computer science. I don't know who the heck they're hiring/contracting, but they suck so unbelievably bad. When I hear that some govt organization has assembly code being maintained, I imagine some ****** creating a confusing system to keep himself from getting replaced by a kid who knows C.

 

[Sasparilla]

Hopefully, for the sake of long term British democracy, this can be stopped. (Democracies don't last long when citizens have no privacy...that power always gets abused)

Thanks big Western governments! I sure am glad that all parties in office can get behind mass survelience.

If you don't think this is happening in places like France and Germany as well you're only kidding yourself.

The UK really is, for a democracy, in a class of its own when it comes to public mass surveillance - they were going to have trouble with the EU on this, but Brexit will solve that. They passed this massive surveillance bill (where this comes from) with full support of both parties last year (even though one party said they wouldn't) - that is quite beyond what we have here in the U.S..

Truly institutionalizing the tools of tyranny...in the name of public safety of course...just waiting for the right leadership to come along to use it, which it will one day. As the security experts have noted, either everyone can be secure or nobody can - the idea of only a govt back door is specious...however the agencies wanting the back doors don't care (if others gain access) as long as they get the access their own short range needs dictate...security for the citizenry be darned. JMHO...

 

[MH01]

Seriously, not just IT but programming and computer science. I don't know who the heck they're hiring/contracting, but they suck so unbelievably bad. When I hear that some govt organization has assembly code being maintained, I imagine some ****** creating a confusing system to keep himself from getting replaced by a kid who knows C.

Sometimes the best security is through absurdity.....

 

[ssong]

the question here, has there even been a terrorist act that could have been prevented if the governments had access to the data? Ill say a big no. Though the consequences are that the average joe loses more and more rights each time cause the government could not have stopped the attack in the first place, cause they are not plain stupid. The simple fact is that people planning these attackers are not stupid. All that will happen is that we loose more rights and privacy while the real terrorists continue to avoid detection as they will just move to other channels.

As for Peodophiles, interesting you bundle them in with Terrorists, as most of these bastards are actually protected by the government as they are high ranking/rich etc or ooold money.... http://livingresistance.com/2016/12...ngs-come-forward-rapists-wealthy-politicians/

Just stick to the terrorists being poor evil bastards out to kill us, cause the other group you describe, are not going to be affected by this at all.....even the terrorists will laugh how we are giving up our rights. Like taking our shoes off at airports now...this is the type of act this is....no terrorist if going to put explosives in shoes, but every single person flying now goes through this ....... jokes on us! the average punter.
[doublepost=1494173399][/doublepost]

Spot on. These same rings the police are aware of, and ignore due to the importance of people involved.

To add a bit more on to this... Past examples actually show that even when you give actionable intelligence to government agencies, they can do very little with it to prevent terrorist acts.

Link to article

The article above talks of the massive intelligence failure found by an inquisition into the Paris attacks last year. The most striking quote is

All the extremists involved in the attacks had been previously flagged to authorities, Fenech said. Some had past convictions, or were under judicial surveillance in France or in Belgium when they struck Paris.

The belief that mass surveillance is the answer to a safe society is essentially a regurgitation of the non-sense spread by many governments as there is no direct correlation of its effectiveness. Instead we have examples that even with available information, they cannot provide safety to its respective citizens.

Disabling encryption or weakening it in anyway will only create further problems for the consumer as it essentially puts the burden of risk on the consumer. Fact is, instead of making everyone vulnerable, we need the intelligence agencies to grow a pair and take bolder action on known individuals.

I'll come under flak for saying this profiling potential terrorists and taking preemptive measures would be a better effort to alleviate terrorism than telling everyone to give up their social network accounts (USA -_-) or weakening encryption altogether.

[EDIT] Forgot to mention, all of this is gonna become a moot point since terrorists are developing their own solutions to propagate their message.

Link to article

Ironic that the conference where this was mentioned was hosted in London

[EDIT2] sp.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

Yes, lets all live under tin foil and pretend that our lives are suddenly worse off.

Or you could just carry on as normal. If you're not guilty of anything, why be so annoyed? The opposite logic should mean that Community Support Officers, speed cameras, CCTV and forensics should also be abandoned.

 

[MH01]

To add a bit more on to this... Past examples actually show that even when you give actionable intelligence to government agencies, they can do very little with it to prevent terrorist acts.

Link to article

The article above qutalks of the massive intelligence failure found by an inquisition into the Paris attacks last year. The most striking quote is



The belief that mass surveillance is the answer to a safe society is essentially a regurgitation of the non-sense spread by many governments as there is no direct correlation of its effectiveness. Instead we have examples that even with available information, they cannot provide safety to its respective citizens.

Disabling encryption or weakening it in anyway will only create further problems for the consumer as it essentially puts the burden of risk on the consumer. Fact is, instead of making everyone vulnerable, we need the intelligence agencies to grow a pair and take bolder action on known individuals.

I'll come under flak for saying this profiling potential terrorists and taking preemptive measures would be a better effort to alleviate terrorism than telling everyone to give up their social network accounts (USA -_-) or weakening encryption altogether.

[EDIT] Forgot to mention, all of this is gonna become a moot point since terrorists are developing their own solutions to propagate their message.

Link to article

Ironic that the conference where this was mentioned was hosted in London

Correct . Without analysis , mass gathering of data is useless. In most situations , the government agencies were actually aware of the individuals in question, though they did not act on it. Nothing is going to change this.

The common denominator is still analysts sitting down .... trolling though so much data.......and even if they find something, it actually going through all the redtape to get actioned ....

 

[ssong]

Yes, lets all live under tin foil and pretend that our lives are suddenly worse off.

Or you could just carry on as normal. If you're not guilty of anything, why be so annoyed? The opposite logic should mean that Community Support Officers, speed cameras, CCTV and forensics should also be abandoned.

The big difference here that what you mentioned are all security measures for public spaces where its for the surveillance of ones actions within the public sphere. What this bill proposes is a full surveillance of an individual within their private spheres. There are many political theorists who will say that the complete infringement of the private sphere by the government is the first step towards irreversible tyranny.

 

[steve62388]

If you're not guilty of anything, why be so annoyed?

Please post your internet history and all your logins and passwords. I presume you have nothing to hide.

 

[ssong]

Correct . Without analysis , mass gathering of data is useless. In most situations , the government agencies were actually aware of the individuals in question, though they did not act on it. Nothing is going to change this.

The common denominator is still analysts sitting down .... trolling though so much data.......and even if they find something, it actually going through all the redtape to get auctioned ....

AI might be one possible solution for this, as most of the times the redtape is there to save face for the government and not be branded as inconsiderate, abusing power, or oppressive. Depending on what your views are on AI, it could essentially make uncomfortable decisions for humans and who would we be to question it when that information is based on ***bytes of data?

 

[69650]

This will not stop a single terrorist attack.

 

[Eraserhead]

AI might be one possible solution for this, as most of the times the redtape is there to save face for the government and not be branded as inconsiderate, abusing power, or oppressive. Depending on what your views are on AI, it could essentially make uncomfortable decisions for humans and who would we be to question it when that information is based on ***bytes of data?

AI is biased by the programmers who wrote it.

 

[ssong]

AI is biased by the programmers who wrote it.

I'm very much aware of that... I was thinking something along the lines of a self writing AI

I'm also a strong supporter of some sort of moral code for programmers similar to the Hippocratic oath that people in medicine take, but that's a different discussion I guess.

 

[macsba]

Just one little question:

Is this the country where the Magna Carta came from?

 

[Eraserhead]

I'm very much aware of that... I was thinking something along the lines of a self writing AI

I'm also a strong supporter of some sort of moral code for programmers similar to the Hippocratic oath that people in medicine take, but that's a different discussion I guess.

I don't think that would help. Because the first level AI would be racist.
[doublepost=1494185623][/doublepost]

Just one little question:

Is this the country where the Magna Carta came from?

We are governed by fools just like everyone else.

 

[rikscha]

Thanks big Western governments! I sure am glad that all parties in office can get behind mass survelience.

If you don't think this is happening in places like France and Germany as well you're only kidding yourself.

It's not. This is mostly an Anglo-Saxon approach

 

[jeremiah256]

Every company that depends on solid encryption as a product or service would be forced to kick the U.K. to the curb. Brexit and this ensures London ceases to be valuable as a top financial center in the world.

 

[Stella]

UK has one of the highest volume of CCTV cameras... so it's not surprising.

Pretty ironic coming from the country that gave the world George Orwell and his classic "1984"

 

[Piggie]

Makes me wonder what they will do when they intercept some text messages such as:

"The Beaver is leaving the Dam"
"The chicken is about to lay the egg"
"The cat has jumped over the wall and is about to catch the mouse"

Police will be all over them in a shot I'm sure!

 

[5105973]

I'm not sure what the situation in the UK is, but I know that we in the US have a lot of laws and court decisions that have the net result of shielding gang members and criminals and criminal activity for political reasons.

On the surface these laws and court decisions are well intentioned and meant to be humanitarian. But in practice they keep law enforcement from sharing very simple information such as identity fraud and immigration status. None of this information needs to be obtained by invading anyone's private information. It should be a matter of public record or law enforcement data obtained through arrest records or ICE data. But there's an extensive "don't ask, don't tell" web of interconnected regulations across all levels of government that prevent laws from being enforced and public safety being maintained.

People who attempt to speak out about it are silenced with labels such as racist or xenophobe even if they are actually the same demographic as the people in the gangs or terror groups that are taking advantage of these shields.

I have watched gang activity erode the safety of our public schools. In my area we once had the highest rated public school system and we have the high taxes to maintain one. That's not going to matter in a few years. There's one particular gang that's growing more and more powerful. I had a run in with them years ago when they weren't as crazy as they are now.

We already had a highly publicized rape in one of our high schools. It isn't a gang related incident but the alleged perpetrators were illegal aliens and it brought to light just how unbalanced our laws are in favoring illegal immigrants against documented and natural born residents. It results in situations where we have men 18-21 years of age and possibly older enrolled with girls as young as 13 and we know almost nothing about them, even if there is something in their records to know. The schools aren't allowed to ask. But I know I have to fill out a crapload of papers to enroll my kids in the same schools. There is no common sense in our laws anymore.

So no, I wouldn't trust the government with any more power right now. They're a mess in my country.

I don't know first-hand but I've gathered from comments and reading that the situation isn't much better in Europe and the U.K. So stick up for yourselves and make sure the laws you're already buried in make sense before ceding any more power over to these politicians who prove time and time again they're only there to sell their own grandma down the river if it would gain them some perks.

 

[VulchR]

Pretty ironic coming from the country that gave the world George Orwell and his classic "1984"

I wouldn't use the word 'ironic' so much as 'tragic'.

 

[Eraserhead]

We already had a highly publicized rape in one of our high schools. It isn't a gang related incident but the alleged perpetrators were illegal aliens and it brought to light just how unbalanced our laws are in favoring illegal immigrants against documented and natural born residents. It results in situations where we have men 18-21 years of age and possibly older enrolled with girls as young as 13 and we know almost nothing about them, even if there is something in their records to know. The schools aren't allowed to ask. But I know I have to fill out a crapload of papers to enroll my kids in the same schools. There is no common sense in our laws anymore.

That's insane.