RealPC officially discontinued.

[eric_n_dfw]

Re: Ideas

dguisinger had an interesting (and suprisingly "on topic" ) post. I think the caching of "byte-swapped" data has potential, but it introduces a lot of complexity when you send a file to another PC or even to the Mac. Do you swap the bytes back whenever you put it on the network? WHat about when you mount the virtual drive from OS X?

Also, is x86 little-endian bytewise or bitwise? (or both?)

If it's bitwise (which I think it is), now we're talking about much more complexity than simple swapping bytes. I haven't done assembler in years and my C bitwise operations are a bit rusty; does anyone know if there is hardware support for doing a big -> little endian bit conversion in 1 cycle? And even if there is, you're looking at as much as double the clock cycles on non-converted memory.

 

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Does anyone know if realpc works (the old version) in classic mode on the G5 since I don't think it has any G3/4 optimisations.

It's not a classic vs. OS X problem -- there is either a CPU mode that VPC takes advantage of, or a CPU instruction that it's using.

Look's like the endian shift between the PC and Mac is thrust back out front, at least as far as VPC is concerned.

 

[OSXconvert]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Another opportunity to dump Office

Originally posted by SeaFox
Uh, JPEG is a proprietary format, now. It wasn't when it first came out, but the rights algorithms were bought a few years ago by some group. They started to try charging people licensing fees for it and threatening lawsuits. I think only one ISP actually paid them. Everyone else called their bluff since the format had been in use free for so long.

MP3 is also a proprietary format. But other encoding engines written open source or in such a way to avoid copyrighted material have emerged.

You make some good points, SeaFox, but my point is still valid. That even though the formats are proprietary, the licensing scheme is either very equitable and/or the standard is open enough so other developers can read and write to it seamlessly. Word has a similar level of penetration as JPEG does--just about everybody uses it--and many competing developers have tried to reverse engineer the file format to decent levels of compatibility. But you cannot trade files back and forth, making edits and expect the formatting data to be consistent.

When you have such a large monopoly like Microsoft does and the deep pockets to squash any competitor then the public's interest is harmed. Control the standards and software infrastructure and you are the gatekeeper. Remember when Corel had an office suite for Linux? They were one of the first big players to step up to the plate. Microsoft bought it out. They were very smart: marginalize the platform by keeping it un-user-friendly. I know this subject seems to be becoming another rant on Microsoft--it's a very easy target--but I think it's important to discuss this. Let's face facts: any platform that does not have a totally seamless communication with Microsoft Office cannot be a viable platform for business. As Mac users, we hate the monopoly, but we also have to play by it. Microsoft clearly views VPC as a way to kill the Mac Business Unit: consolidate all software development to Wintel and sell VPC and Windows licenses for use on other platforms. It's a smart business move and further handicaps other platforms.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another opportunity to dump Office

Originally posted by OSXconvert
Remember when Corel had an office suite for Linux? They were one of the first big players to step up to the plate. Microsoft bought it out.

As I remember it, Corel Office (which consisted of WordPerfect, Lotus 123 and some other packages) was killed by other means. My wife's (then girl-friend's) Acer 486sx machine came with it. That's when MicroSoft started telling vendors that they basically had to package MS Office with machines or else they would pull their Windows 3.x licenses (or charge a lot more for them). The DOJ slapped them down for it, but the damage had already been done. WP and Lotus never recovered. (This, IMO, is much worse that the silly browser wars of the late 90's)

BTW, it's being said here that JPEG is owned by someone. Are you sure you don't mean GIF? I had not heard about any JPEG ownership, but GIF licensing issues have been around for years (going back to when CompuServe owned GIF, Unisys owns it now I think) This is why PNG is big on Linux - and hopefully soon on Mac and Windows.

 

[ClimbingTheLog]

Do some research, people. Try Google.

The pseudo little-endian mode was in all the PowerPC's but it sucked until the G3.

VPC4 was the first version to use it, and required a G3 or G4 processor.

So, Virtual PC 1,2,and 3 all had byte-swapping code in them, and they worked just fine. If Microsoft wanted to, they could dust off the source-code CD for version 3 and have a perfectly fine byteswapper already done for VPC.
If I were then, I'd take a couple days and altivec-enhance it first.

This is all in Connectix press releases.

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by ClimbingTheLog
Do some research, people. Try Google.

The pseudo little-endian mode was in all the PowerPC's but it sucked until the G3.

VPC4 was the first version to use it, and required a G3 or G4 processor.

So, Virtual PC 1,2,and 3 all had byte-swapping code in them, and they worked just fine. If Microsoft wanted to, they could dust off the source-code CD for version 3 and have a perfectly fine byteswapper already done for VPC.
If I were then, I'd take a couple days and altivec-enhance it first.

This is all in Connectix press releases.

I'd venture to guess that the code from version 3 is sufficiently different for 4,5 and 6 that just "dusting it off" is a bit pie-in-the-sky.

As I've said MS couldn't give a crap about VPC for Mac, they bought it forthe tech in VPC for Windows. Connectix probably knew that the 970 would lack this little-endian mode and sold the whole kit and caboodle to avoid having to deal with it. (can you blame them?)

MS *will* probably implement the same kind of bit swapping that VPC 3 had. Connectix probably could have done the same in less time --- because they gave a damn! But MS will probably not put a lot of resources behind it.

Hell, maybe the 980 chip will have this mode (anyone out there know?) and they'll wait for it to come out -- effectively screwing all of the early G5 adopters.

 

[mattmack]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-Microsoft rhetoric needs to end

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
You know, Apple pretty much did that with iDVD.

[edit] ... and iTunes.

Buying the company and utilizing the technology is one thing. Buying the company to no longer support the product just because they are your competion is another (peoplesoft v. Oracle)

 

[SeaFox]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another opportunity to dump Office

Originally posted by OSXconvert
You make some good points, SeaFox, but my point is still valid. That even though the formats are proprietary, the licensing scheme is either very equitable and/or the standard is open enough so other developers can read and write to it seamlessly.

I dunno. I remember all those early mp3 encoders. Lots of the writers were in hot water for not obtaining premission to write mp3 software based around Faunhoffer's format. They had to stop distributing the software. But the products still write decent mp3 files today. Most don't work simply because of not being updated for compatability with new OS versions. But unlinke mp3 (or most audio formats), Word's format is still being updated and changed. And working with older versions is a hassle sometimes. Like everytime Word offers to update a Word 6 file to Word 97 format when you make changes.

Word has a similar level of penetration as JPEG does--just about everybody uses it--and many competing developers have tried to reverse engineer the file format to decent levels of compatibility. But you cannot trade files back and forth, making edits and expect the formatting data to be consistent.

One of the few reasons I use MS Word even though I prefer Appleworks.

Remember when Corel had an office suite for Linux? They were one of the first big players to step up to the plate.

I think Corel's decision to release an Office suite for Linux had much to do with the fact they had their own Linux distro.

 

[Rower_CPU]

Browser/GIF/PNG discussion here

 

[prodco]

Cant be ar5ed to read th whole thread but...

anyone tried this yet?....

http://www.openosx.com/wintel/index.html

I'm surprised it hasn't made the front page.

It seems much faster than VPC on a dual G4 be interested to see what the G5 optimisations are

 

[prodco]

also...

doesn't microsoft have a 20% stake in Apple anyway that they bought way back when, meaning all the conspiracy-theory on Microsoft would be a little counter productive?

just my english 2pence worth

 

[Chealion]

Prodco - WinTel is just Bochs with a wrapping and a price tag. And from all reports Bochs is dog gone slow.

 

[ClimbingTheLog]

Re: also...

Originally posted by prodco
doesn't microsoft have a 20% stake in Apple anyway that they bought way back when, meaning all the conspiracy-theory on Microsoft would be a little counter productive?

just my english 2pence worth

That question is wrong in so many ways. Go look it up on Google.