Reasons why I think there will be a refresh in June...

[KPOM]

Did you read the 3DMark scores of the Intel SB IGP in the Samsung Series 9 as over a 50% loss vs the Nvidia 320m which is what I have feared all along... and you're okay with that to get a CPU boost even when the CPU is not the bottleneck?

I just don't get the logic here and I don't believe Apple does either otherwise we would have seen Core i7 Arrandale last year. The 3DMark numbers I just saw from SB in a potential SB chip that could be used in the MBA show the SB IGP behind the 2.5yr old Nvidia 9400m and nowhere near the 320m.

Ouch. A 50% drop in graphics isn't worth the boost to the SB Core i3 CPU. Would the ULV Core i7's version of the HD3000 do any better?

My main concern here is how much longer Intel will sell Apple the Core 2 Duos. I'm sure they see a fab that could make more by producing Core i3/i5/i7. Apple is pretty much the only mainstream manufacturer selling the Core 2 Duo. Dell has some clearance model Adamos, but pretty much everything is Core i3 or above. Intel is pushing netbook manufacturers toward the Atom, so I don't see budget models maintaining a market for the Core 2 Duo.

 

[vader_slri]

Did you read the 3DMark scores of the Intel SB IGP in the Samsung Series 9 as over a 50% loss vs the Nvidia 320m which is what I have feared all along... and you're okay with that to get a CPU boost even when the CPU is not the bottleneck?

But the GPU is not the bottleneck either, even if 3DMark performance is 50% less than the 320m. As you've pointed out in your other posts, the bottleneck has been drive performance. That has been addressed by SSDs. This will be no different in a Sandy Bridge MBA update. The target audience for the MBA will not care for high performance gaming on their laptops. The HD3000 will be fine. In addition, the CPU upgrade is major. We're not talking about going from Arrandale to Sandy Bridge - we're talking about upgrading from C2D! IMO, the magnitude of the GPU downgrade is less significant than the magnitude of the CPU upgrade. If you look at the Engadget review where you quoted the 3DMark numbers from, why did you overlook the PCMarkVantage results? The Samsung scores almost 50% higher than the current 13" MBA! Overall, I think Sandy Bridge will be a great upgrade for the MBA. I'm expecting a refresh sometime before October 2011. I don't anticipate Apple putting on a big show for the MBA refresh - afterall, they refreshed the MBP line without one.

 

[Scottsdale]

Everyone read that the iPhone and iOS may not be updated until FY2012??? Apple is continually pushing out its updates to keep cycles around a year or longer if necessary.

Yes, I know the CPU of SB produces a boost over C2D, but I also know what makes a fast computer... The C2D would be fine for another four years if Apple would keep focus on the actual components and software that can use improvement to result in overall better performing Macs.

 

[Hellhammer]

2. Would Thunderbolt work with an AMD CPU? Apple could go the AMD Fusion route, but if there is no support for Thunderbolt (doubt it) then they probably won't.

I seriously doubt that Intel would let AMD use TB, and also that AMD would want to use it. For Intel, it would be giving a rather major feature to their worst rival. For AMD, it would be giving money to their worst rival. Not sure is it possible in theory (HW support for it).

I still haven't seen any news about ULV and LV Llanos, not even a confirmation that there will be those. The chips that will be released in June/July will be for desktops only, according to the rumors.

Ouch. A 50% drop in graphics isn't worth the boost to the SB Core i3 CPU. Would the ULV Core i7's version of the HD3000 do any better?

There are no LV or ULV i3s. There is one ULV i5, the rest are i7s.

 

[mds]

Quick question regarding a June release: If one were to buy an MBA on May 31st and Apple released a new MBA (spec bump or whatever) on June 15th, could one exchange the machine for a new one with updated configuration? If so, would they do a data transfer or swap hard drives into the new machine?

Just curious because I will be purchasing an MBA in May for a long road trip (3 month tour). If Apple released an upgrade would I conceivably be able to take my existing machine in and swap it with a new one? I wouldn't be able to do backups/migration while on the road...

Thanks!

Mike

 

[fyrefly]

Quick question regarding a June release: If one were to buy an MBA on May 31st and Apple released a new MBA (spec bump or whatever) on June 15th, could one exchange the machine for a new one with updated configuration? If so, would they do a data transfer or swap hard drives into the new machine?

Just curious because I will be purchasing an MBA in May for a long road trip (3 month tour). If Apple released an upgrade would I conceivably be able to take my existing machine in and swap it with a new one? I wouldn't be able to do backups/migration while on the road...

Apple generally has a 14 day, no questions asked, no restocking-fee return policy. They've sometimes been known to stretch it to 30 days, when new products are released (ie: If you've bought a new MBA in mid-May and they come out with a new one in Mid-June, and you're nice and catch a manager on a nice day at the Apple Store, they might return it for you and give you the new one).

But you're talking about a 45-60 day return policy, and I just don't see Apple doing it. Anything beyond 14 days is pushing it. Anything beyond 30 days is ludicrous to expect, IMHO.

 

[mds]

Apple generally has a 14 day, no questions asked, no restocking-fee return policy. They've sometimes been known to stretch it to 30 days, when new products are released (ie: If you've bought a new MBA in mid-May and they come out with a new one in Mid-June, and you're nice and catch a manager on a nice day at the Apple Store, they might return it for you and give you the new one).

But you're talking about a 45-60 day return policy, and I just don't see Apple doing it. Anything beyond 14 days is pushing it. Anything beyond 30 days is ludicrous to expect, IMHO.

Thanks...actually I said May 31st to June 15th, which would be 16 days, but I get your point.

Let's say I was within the 14 day window, would they do a anything to transfer data from one machine to the other? Thanks!

 

[Caliber26]

Obviously the IGP can drive bigger displays but it adversely affects its capabilities.

I can think up about 20 things I want in an update, but sole use of Intel's IGP for graphics could be detrimental to the overall performance.

3G/4G as others have mentioned.
Backlit keyboard.
Black aluminum
Discrete GPU
iPS display
Higher resolution display
3D display
OLED display
400-nit bright display
Discrete GPU
lCD trackpad for true touch capabilities
Aluminum capped keyboard keys
USB 3.0
Thunderbolt
Docking station for it to snap in eliminating all cables when connecting
Better battery
Discrete GPU
Return of port drawers
and a bunch more if I keep thinking as well as a discrete GPU.

But add Intel's IGP as the sole graphics solution and I fear a gigantic step backwards.

You forgot a complimentary 27" Apple Cinema Display.

 

[HiddenGem]

Any ideas why Apple stopped selling the 24" display?

 

[peskaa]

I'm going to buy an 11" MBA this summer for when I go back to university to study medicine, and I really hope it gets a June/July update. I couldn't care less about the GPU, as long as it runs the desktop and plays nice with HD video (which they all will, even the Intel IGP).

My view is that Apple will be refreshing all of their machines this year to include Thunderbolt ports - it's a no brainer that they will want the technology rolled out across the whole lineup as soon as possible. Even if there are no other major changes they'll be shoving that port in - but for the MBA I do expect SB CPUs.

Any ideas why Apple stopped selling the 24" display?

Easy. They moved to the 27" display in the iMacs, and rather than having to source 27" and 24" panels they simplified the supply chain by going for 27" only. Probably more profit in the 27"ers too.

 

[HiddenGem]

The 27" is huge and expensive! Mind you even 24" ones on ebay are still expensive.

 

[peskaa]

The 27" is huge and expensive! Mind you even 24" ones on ebay are still expensive.

Yeah, the 24" ACDs were never cheap either. Now I love my 27" ACD, but I do wish that Apple made 21.5" (ie: same as iMac) ACDs as well to serve the smaller end of the market.

 

[57004]

Let's say I was within the 14 day window, would they do a anything to transfer data from one machine to the other? Thanks!

No, as you're simply returning it then (and then buying a new one) they probably won't do that.

However I've also heard Apple gives money back, if you call them within the 14 days, and say you want to return because there's a new one out, you apparently get an offer of some cash back sometimes. Never happened to me but I've heard this on the forums.

Probably works out cheaper for them than to take it back, refurbish it and then sell it as a refurb at a marked down price.

 

[HiddenGem]

Do these displays run hot and are power hungry? I read they use upto 200W? Which is almost as much as my plasma TV!

 

[peskaa]

Do these displays run hot and are power hungry? I read they use upto 200W? Which is almost as much as my plasma TV!

Don't know where you read those figures. The 27" ACD draws approx 70W at full brightness - https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/11479614/

My 27" gets a little warm to the touch on the top after continuous use for hours, but it's noticeably cooler than the 20, 23 and 30" aluminium displays I used to own over the years.

 

[fyrefly]

However I've also heard Apple gives money back, if you call them within the 14 days, and say you want to return because there's a new one out, you apparently get an offer of some cash back sometimes. Never happened to me but I've heard this on the forums.

Probably works out cheaper for them than to take it back, refurbish it and then sell it as a refurb at a marked down price.

It's also that Apple marks down the "old" model when the new one comes out - to clear out the old stock. So they're just giving you the difference in the price of the old one that changed when the new one came out.

Ouch. A 50% drop in graphics isn't worth the boost to the SB Core i3 CPU. Would the ULV Core i7's version of the HD3000 do any better?

The i7-2657M's GPU clocks up to 1Ghz in turbo, rather than the 900Mhz in the i5-2537M that we're all looking at the results of. The i7-2657M would be another chip that would work in the MBA, and it's CPU turbo's up to 2.7Ghz!

Whether or not that 100Mhz of GPU would make a difference in benchmarks or real-world computing remains to be seen.

The 3DMark numbers I just saw from SB in a potential SB chip that could be used in the MBA show the SB IGP behind the 2.5yr old Nvidia 9400m and nowhere near the 320m.

The 3DMark numbers actually show the LV HD 3000 Graphics as being slightly better than the 9400m, not behind the 9400m.

The 9400m averaged around 1700 in 3DMark06 tests. The Engadget # for the Intel HD 3000 is 2240. That's 25% better performance than the 9400m, not exactly "behind".

However, that's still obviously 1/2 the performance of the 320M, but I wonder what that would impact (other than gaming).

I just don't get the logic here and i don't believe apple does either otherwise we would have seen core i7 arrandale last year.

If we're basing this solely on 3DMark06 #'s, then this statement doesn't make sense. The LV Arrandale 3DMark numbers from last year were in the 1000-1500 range, making the LV SB GPU's twice as fast as the Arrandales of 2010.

 

[vader_slri]

Yes, I know the CPU of SB produces a boost over C2D, but I also know what makes a fast computer... The C2D would be fine for another four years if Apple would keep focus on the actual components and software that can use improvement to result in overall better performing Macs.

Just in case it wasn't clear, PCMark Vantage is a measure of *overall* system performance (ie. CPU, graphics, memory, drives, etc.). It is NOT just a measure of CPU performance. So, even with the slower graphics performance, the ULV Sandy Bridge-powered Samsung still scored 40-50% higher than the 13" MBA. I think you are overemphasizing the weaker graphics performance of the HD3000. It will be perfectly fine for the intended MBA audience.

Anyway, once the MBA Sandy Bridge refresh comes, we can do a proper comparison. I am fairly certain that general performance will be higher.

 

[Psilocybin]

Just in case it wasn't clear, PCMark Vantage is a measure of *overall* system performance (ie. CPU, graphics, memory, drives, etc.). It is NOT just a measure of CPU performance. So, even with the slower graphics performance, the ULV Sandy Bridge-powered Samsung still scored 40-50% higher than the 13" MBA. I think you are overemphasizing the weaker graphics performance of the HD3000. It will be perfectly fine for the intended MBA audience.

Anyway, once the MBA Sandy Bridge refresh comes, we can do a proper comparison. I am fairly certain that general performance will be higher.

Obviously the general performance will be better if you don't think it will you have issues
The overall gfx performance will not be better I guarantee you that

 

[victoras]

One can't help but wonder if the 11" model sales are a bit slow given that it's been sold by MacMall for a day now at $849 on eBay ($150 off retail price). That might be evidence of at least a refresh coming for that model in the near future...or something else (who knows). . . .

 

[Susurs]

So Apples only choice is to find space to put a discrete graphics in there via pci-e bus if they stick to Intel...or use those integrated 'things' from Intel.
This situation is stupid. If I understand correctly agreement between Intel and Nvidia makes them more cash, but leaves end users with less possibilities to have a decent gpu in their computers (correct me if I am wrong).

 

[Psilocybin]

They don't have room on that board to put a discrete chip. If they make the board bigger it would make the computer bigger and it will defeat the purpose of portability

 

[Scottsdale]

So Apples only choice is to find space to put a discrete graphics in there via pci-e bus if they stick to Intel...or use those integrated 'things' from Intel.
This situation is stupid. If I understand correctly agreement between Intel and Nvidia makes them more cash, but leaves end users with less possibilities to have a decent gpu in their computers (correct me if I am wrong).

Along with a gigantic Thunderbolt chip... Unlikely that it will get discrete graphics, but the rumor last year made sense. And Apple could still introduce it into the 13" MBP when ready.

Fyrefly. I wouldn't use 3DMark to consider the 9400m is inferior to the Intel IGP. I wouldn't believe it until some well rounded scientific research proved otherwise. I just can point out to all of the Intel lovers that their IGP is over a 55% drop from the 320m. Also, I realize that SB is better than Arrandale, but until it can match 320m it shouldn't be used. The first opportunity for that is Ivy Bridge.

 

[KPOM]

One can't help but wonder if the 11" model sales are a bit slow given that it's been sold by MacMall for a day now at $849 on eBay ($150 off retail price). That might be evidence of at least a refresh coming for that model in the near future...or something else (who knows). . . .

It might be little more than a spec bump, though. Perhaps a 128GB SSD or 4GB RAM will become standard, or maybe 1.6GHz will be the only 11" model sold.

That said, I do think that there will be an upgrade of some kind before next holiday season. The MacBook Air was a good seller for Apple over the holidays. Now that there is more competition (from Samsung and others), they'll need to do something to make next holiday season a good one for the MacBook Air.

 

[vader_slri]

Obviously the general performance will be better if you don't think it will you have issues
The overall gfx performance will not be better I guarantee you that

I guess I'm confused as to why you guys are so fixated on graphics performance of the ULV Sandy Bridge CPU when you freely admit that general performance will be better. I thought the MBA transcended specs and was more about the experience? If the experience is going to be better, what is the hang up? The target audience isn't expecting a graphics powerhouse. HD3000 will be fine.

 

[vader_slri]

I wouldn't use 3DMark to consider the 9400m is inferior to the Intel IGP. I wouldn't believe it until some well rounded scientific research proved otherwise. I just can point out to all of the Intel lovers that their IGP is over a 55% drop from the 320m.

Wait a sec. You won't believe 3DMark results if they show the HD3000 is better than the 9400m... but you will believe them to show that the HD3000 is worse than the 320m? You can't have it both ways, sorry.