Refurb 2012 15" non Retina anti glare vs Early 2014 15" Retina.

[Smeaton1724]

I've been in the market for a new machine in a while - sold my first generation retina 13 as it wasn't powerful enough for my needs and I need the quad that is in the 15.

Been waiting for the early 2014 refresh with a view to getting the retina 16GB and 512GB SSD 15". I plan to use the 1920x1200 resolution with the retina screen. Today I noticed that Apple have got 2012 15" anti glare with a resolution of 1680x1050, the benefit is I can add my own SSD and upgrade the RAM myself.

Difference on the current model:
Retina is lighter.
Retina is more powerful 10800 vs 12000 geekbench.
Retina has larger resolution.
Retina has better graphics?
Retina has longer battery life.
Retina has soldered RAM.

Retina is £500 more expensive - what are the chances of a price decrease and what is being expected from the early 2014 refresh? So far I can only see some clock speed improvements.

 

[accountforit]

Every time I use a non-retina model, after owning retina, I feel like I am using an inferior machine. I couldn't go backwards.

 

[whitedragon101]

what is being expected from the early 2014 refresh? So far I can only see some clock speed improvements.

Everyone is hoping for an Nvidia Maxwell GPU. An 850m Maxwell would be a significant performance increase. But it is possible that Apple could use the Maxwell 860m and that would be a huuuge performance increase. With Maxwell the TDP of the 860m is low enough. The only thing stopping them is whether they want to.


So exciting stuff in the GPU department but it depends on how much you want/need a fast GPU.

 

[john123]

Everyone is hoping for an Nvidia Maxwell GPU. An 850m Maxwell would be a significant performance increase. But it is possible that Apple could use the Maxwell 860m and that would be a huuuge performance increase. With Maxwell the TDP of the 860m is low enough. The only thing stopping them is whether they want to.


So exciting stuff in the GPU department but it depends on how much you want/need a fast GPU.

It's also possible that we won't see a Maxwell GPU. People have been assuming that it'll come because it's a great and powerful GPU, but there are a ton of reasons it might never appear in a rMBP. You seem to be acknowledging this in the part of your post that I bolded, but I wanted to highlight this fact for the OP clearly.

Also, to the OP, the discussion of an "early 2014 refresh" is a bit presumptive. It's rather unlikely there will be a refresh in the next couple months.

 

[thekev]

I've been in the market for a new machine in a while - sold my first generation retina 13 as it wasn't powerful enough for my needs and I need the quad that is in the 15.

Been waiting for the early 2014 refresh with a view to getting the retina 16GB and 512GB SSD 15". I plan to use the 1920x1200 resolution with the retina screen. Today I noticed that Apple have got 2012 15" anti glare with a resolution of 1680x1050, the benefit is I can add my own SSD and upgrade the RAM myself.

Difference on the current model:
Retina is lighter.
Retina is more powerful 10800 vs 12000 geekbench.
Retina has larger resolution.
Retina has better graphics?
Retina has longer battery life.
Retina has soldered RAM.

Retina is £500 more expensive - what are the chances of a price decrease and what is being expected from the early 2014 refresh? So far I can only see some clock speed improvements.

You haven't mentioned your uses or where the 13" was lagging. Ram is expensive right now no matter what. 10800 vs 12000 is trivial. Even if you need more power, it's unlikely that you would be satisfied with one 15" and not the other over a 12%~ difference on benchmarks. As you noted dual to quad offers more significance. Graphics depend on what you're comparing. The graphics in the base 15" are worse for many things. OpenCL should be about the same depending on the application, but a 650m is noticeably faster for most things than an Iris Pro.

 

[maflynn]

Retina is £500 more expensive - what are the chances of a price decrease and what is being expected from the early 2014 refresh? So far I can only see some clock speed improvements.

First, the only time I hear about an early 2014 refresh is from people here hoping one will be coming. There's been scant information to indicate that apple will in fact have one and secondly they typically do not do this.

As for the price change, they (apple) typically do not reduce the price so I'd not expect that at all.

 

[SimeoneSergio]

Been waiting for the early 2014 refresh with a view to getting the retina 16GB and 512GB SSD 15".

Hmm no, they did a refresh in October 2013, they not likely are coming out with another one soon, so...

I'd go with the current rMBP 15". I got one from the refurbished store (my previous was a late 2011 with anti glare and top specs 15") and i'm really happy (i make heavy use of PS, AE, AI + rest of suite).

Don't forget the Apple care!

 

[whitedragon101]

It's also possible that we won't see a Maxwell GPU. People have been assuming that it'll come because it's a great and powerful GPU, but there are a ton of reasons it might never appear in a rMBP. You seem to be acknowledging this in the part of your post that I bolded, but I wanted to highlight this fact for the OP clearly.

Also, to the OP, the discussion of an "early 2014 refresh" is a bit presumptive. It's rather unlikely there will be a refresh in the next couple months.

They may not put one in true. Yes I was trying to indicate that they might not. As obviously nothing is certain. However here are the reasons why I think it will be put in this year :

1) Removing the dGPU altogether
They have exactly the same decision to make as they did before. Haswell + discrete GPU or Haswell without dGPU. Apple already made that decision. Nothing has changed in the market until Broadwell which will be late 2014 early 2015.

2) Removing the dGPU altogether
If Apple remove the GPU at the spec bump that will mean a refresh where the new model is slower than the old one. That is a PR disaster. Also because the competing Dell XPS and HP Envy Macbook Pro copies will certainly be using the 850m (maybe 860m) which will crush a Haswell Iris Pro iGPU.

3) Sticking with the 750m till Broadwell
Apple could keep the 750m for costs sake and wait for a Broadwell iGPU only lineup. This means The HP Envy and Dell XPS which are Apples direct competitors will have massively faster graphics than Apple. They could even up their 750m to 860m to stick the boot in hard which would again be a PR disaster.

 

[Jerz]

If they were to release a 2014 refresh, isn't it time already?

It's mid-March right now.

 

[john123]

They may not put one in true. Yes I was trying to indicate that they might not. As obviously nothing is certain. However here are the reasons why I think it will be put in this year :

1) Removing the dGPU altogether
They have exactly the same decision to make as they did before. Haswell + discrete GPU or Haswell without dGPU. Apple already made that decision. Nothing has changed in the market until Broadwell which will be late 2014 early 2015.

2) Removing the dGPU altogether
If Apple remove the GPU at the spec bump that will mean a refresh where the new model is slower than the old one. That is a PR disaster. Also because the competing Dell XPS and HP Envy Macbook Pro copies will certainly be using the 850m (maybe 860m) which will crush a Haswell Iris Pro iGPU.

3) Sticking with the 750m till Broadwell
Apple could keep the 750m for costs sake and wait for a Broadwell iGPU only lineup. This means The HP Envy and Dell XPS which are Apples direct competitors will have massively faster graphics than Apple. They could even up their 750m to 860m to stick the boot in hard which would again be a PR disaster.

I don't think these are the "PR disasters" you're making them out to be. Apple's historically had no problems gimping its graphics options, or having an out-of-date lineup for months. (The wait times for the 15" Haswell models are a recent but reasonable example, although we've seen even more egregious examples in recent history.)

I do agree that if we see some early to mid year processor bump (analogous to the February 2013 update), they wouldn't remove the dGPU. That would be pretty silly.

But here's the catch-22 involved in updating to Maxwell:
•*We know that Apple would love to get out of the dGPU business
•*We know that Broadwell graphics are supposed to be ~40% improved over Haswell's Iris Pro
• We know that Maxwell is a huge, huge leap over both Iris Pro and the 750M
• As such, going with Maxwell this year puts Apple back in the position in early 2015 of facing a regression in graphics performance.

That's an ugly problem, and the easiest way around it would be to not upgrade to Maxwell at all.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see Maxwell graphics, and as a consumer, I am not looking forward to an iGPU-only line. I'm merely talking about the business side, and there, faster is not always better.

----------

If they were to release a 2014 refresh, isn't it time already?

It's mid-March right now.

No. Haswell only came out in October. The average release cycle in recent history has been about 9 months—although people tend to have the tail wagging the dog when they cite that number, since releases are a function of available technology much more so than they are a function of arbitrary calendar worshipping.

 

[Jerz]

I don't think these are the "PR disasters" you're making them out to be. Apple's historically had no problems gimping its graphics options, or having an out-of-date lineup for months. (The wait times for the 15" Haswell models are a recent but reasonable example, although we've seen even more egregious examples in recent history.)

I do agree that if we see some early to mid year processor bump (analogous to the February 2013 update), they wouldn't remove the dGPU. That would be pretty silly.

But here's the catch-22 involved in updating to Maxwell:
•*We know that Apple would love to get out of the dGPU business
•*We know that Broadwell graphics are supposed to be ~40% improved over Haswell's Iris Pro
• We know that Maxwell is a huge, huge leap over both Iris Pro and the 750M
• As such, going with Maxwell this year puts Apple back in the position in early 2015 of facing a regression in graphics performance.

That's an ugly problem, and the easiest way around it would be to not upgrade to Maxwell at all.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see Maxwell graphics, and as a consumer, I am not looking forward to an iGPU-only line. I'm merely talking about the business side, and there, faster is not always better.

----------



No. Haswell only came out in October. The average release cycle in recent history has been about 9 months—although people tend to have the tail wagging the dog when they cite that number, since releases are a function of available technology much more so than they are a function of arbitrary calendar worshipping.

So if Apple were to release the Maxwell refresh 2014 rMBPs, it would be around... July?

Then there wouldn't be a spring in-gen refresh.

I'm sorry, I haven't been following the releases. But Apple normally comes out with a Fall model, then refreshes it in Spring, correct? And The fall model would be mid-2013 rMBP and the spring refresh would then be the late-2013 rMBP. Apple wouldn't do a third one before another fall model release near september right?

 

[john123]

So if Apple were to release the Maxwell refresh 2014 rMBPs, it would be around... July?

Then there wouldn't be a spring in-gen refresh.

I'm sorry, I haven't been following the releases. But Apple normally comes out with a Fall model, then refreshes it in Spring, correct? And The fall model would be mid-2013 rMBP and the spring refresh would then be the late-2013 rMBP. Apple wouldn't do a third one before another fall model release near september right?

No, there is not a normal fall/spring cycle. I'd point you to go the MacRumors Buyers' Guide since it contains information about historical release dates. Combining the data there for the Retina and prior non-Retina models, you get:

Oct 2013 (251 days)
Feb 2013 (247 days)
Jun 2012 (231 days)
Oct 2011 (242 days)
Feb 2011 (317 days)
Apr 2010 (309 days)
Jun 2009 (237 days)

The mean value there is 262 days, which would put a mean release date around 7/10/14. Again, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in the history or exact dates, since release timing depends upon a lot of stuff. But this should give you some idea.

 

[Smeaton1724]

Coming back to my thread.

I need a quad core for Revit and other engineering and some media applications, I've tried getting by on a retina 13 but they just don't cut the mustard.

I've a thread I set up a while ago but never went with buying a 15" as I think the price for either no dgpu or a 750 is expensive for what it is at the moment. As for lowering RRP the retinas have had a drop and I expect another one, bringing them back to normality - retina 'was' premium, it's now the standard. Throw in an 860 dgpu and I'll pay the RRP!

The 15 is what I've defined as being my next laptop for a few reasons, screen size and a combination of resolution (anti glare just gives passable resolution) plus a quad core. Also the classic macbook allows for leeway on the SSD capacity in future.

My thoughts are they are running a 0% finance offer that expires end of March. They will not release new machines within the period or following 14 day cooling period, or a week after that. Think of the hassle of people wanting to return at the start of the agreement. Realistically that is April 22nd at the earliest, so why not wait until June and do the Airs, Mini and Pros together?!

In that case it will be a mid 2014 update rather than early 2014, this would pave the way for broadwell machines next March. Nobody who gets one this June will have buyers remorse if a new model comes out next March, plus it fits the profile of spec bumping. Maybe this year we could see carbon fibre or liquid metal and Saffire coated displays?!

 

[simon48]

Coming back to my thread.

I need a quad core for Revit and other engineering and some media applications, I've tried getting by on a retina 13 but they just don't cut the mustard.

I've a thread I set up a while ago but never went with buying a 15" as I think the price for either no dgpu or a 750 is expensive for what it is at the moment. As for lowering RRP the retinas have had a drop and I expect another one, bringing them back to normality - retina 'was' premium, it's now the standard. Throw in an 860 dgpu and I'll pay the RRP!

The 15 is what I've defined as being my next laptop for a few reasons, screen size and a combination of resolution (anti glare just gives passable resolution) plus a quad core. Also the classic macbook allows for leeway on the SSD capacity in future.

My thoughts are they are running a 0% finance offer that expires end of March. They will not release new machines within the period or following 14 day cooling period, or a week after that. Think of the hassle of people wanting to return at the start of the agreement. Realistically that is April 22nd at the earliest, so why not wait until June and do the Airs, Mini and Pros together?!

In that case it will be a mid 2014 update rather than early 2014, this would pave the way for broadwell machines next March. Nobody who gets one this June will have buyers remorse if a new model comes out next March, plus it fits the profile of spec bumping. Maybe this year we could see carbon fibre or liquid metal and Saffire coated displays?!

Without Broadwell there's really nothing to update for the rMBPs. I doubt we are going to see anything but a minor clock speed boost before Broadwell comes out. I think you're looking at it with too much of an investor type view (it's been X amount of time, we should update), the updates are driven by new hardware that's not made by Apple. Looking at what Intel has out and in the works is an much better indicator of when Apple is going to update then how long it's been since Apple has updated.

 

[whitedragon101]

• We know that Maxwell is a huge, huge leap over both Iris Pro and the 750M
• As such, going with Maxwell this year puts Apple back in the position in early 2015 of facing a regression in graphics performance.

That's an ugly problem, and the easiest way around it would be to not upgrade to Maxwell at all.

yes that would be a cunning and evil option. Pretend Maxwell didn't exist so that Broadwell Iris Pro looks like an upgrade.

Hopefully the fear that tech journalist world will see the king has no clothes would prevent this.

 

[Smeaton1724]

Well yes I'm investing in the hardware. To drop £1800 on a rMBP for a new one to potentially come out within mere days would be a waste of time and money as iris pro isn't enough for me and the 750 will be blown away by the 850/860.

Available from intel are 2.4 quads and 860 dgpu's, safe bets and spec bumps worth it to get some better bang for buck, it is just when Apple will bump them. Same with the Airs, there is a faster processor but that product line is crying out for retina, so Apple dictates that.

If I was in a fixed location I'd have the Mac Pro but unfortunately I'm not.

Without Broadwell there's really nothing to update for the rMBPs. I doubt we are going to see anything but a minor clock speed boost before Broadwell comes out. I think you're looking at it with too much of an investor type view (it's been X amount of time, we should update), the updates are driven by new hardware that's not made by Apple. Looking at what Intel has out and in the works is an much better indicator of when Apple is going to update then how long it's been since Apple has updated.

 

[simon48]

Well yes I'm investing in the hardware. To drop £1800 on a rMBP for a new one to potentially come out within mere days would be a waste of time and money as iris pro isn't enough for me and the 750 will be blown away by the 850/860.

Available from intel are 2.4 quads and 860 dgpu's, safe bets and spec bumps worth it to get some better bang for buck, it is just when Apple will bump them. Same with the Airs, there is a faster processor but that product line is crying out for retina, so Apple dictates that.

If I was in a fixed location I'd have the Mac Pro but unfortunately I'm not.

I don't think you're understanding me, I'm not saying you are investing or an investor, I'm saying you are picking timeframes like Wall Street investors.

Apple isn't likely to have a major update to the rMBPs by June (or September for that matter) because Intel won't have Broadwell out by then. Just because it's been several months since Apple has updated doesn't mean that they will make an update (some investors look the last release and say it was X amount of months ago so it's about time for an update).

Apples updates largely have to do with what Intel is doing, as opposed to whenever Apple wants one. People think Apple has a standard update cycle, but really it's just Apple following Intel's update cycle. So when Intel is running behind everyone goes "why isn't Apple updating?" and blame Apple it really makes no sense. Obviously all of this isn't true all the time, but it's a very good guideline to go by.

 

[Smeaton1724]

I know broadwell isn't out until next year, that's clearly established. However intel will still release updated processors - there one ready now, a 2.4 ghz quad, small spec bump over the 2.3, possibly replace the 2.0 and 2.3 with the 2.4 in one go and really make the lineup lean in terms of options.

Then add the 850/860 and that's a nice little bump in specifications in mid 2014, before a broadwell refresh early 2015. A 2.4 quad and 850 dgpu for £1800 is a decent mobile workstation. As other commenters have stated Apple could just ignore all of the above but why would they, it's not like the 750 has been a great or serves any real purpose keeping it around, if anything it's a battery drainer without providing any huge performance.

A spec bump will be seen at some point before broadwell, Intel have to be seen to be doing something. Additionally I've been around long enough to have seen that Apple seem to like repackaging very similar tech in a new enclosure, which is also making me sit on the fence.

There is no standard upgrade cycle, but the cycle can be estimated and discussed, to have the standpoint that nothing will come for a significant time is completely against the technology industry.

I don't think you're understanding me, I'm not saying you are investing or an investor, I'm saying you are picking timeframes like Wall Street investors.

Apple isn't likely to have a major update to the rMBPs by June (or September for that matter) because Intel won't have Broadwell out by then. Just because it's been several months since Apple has updated doesn't mean that they will make an update (some investors look the last release and say it was X amount of months ago so it's about time for an update).

Apples updates largely have to do with what Intel is doing, as opposed to whenever Apple wants one. People think Apple has a standard update cycle, but really it's just Apple following Intel's update cycle. So when Intel is running behind everyone goes "why isn't Apple updating?" and blame Apple it really makes no sense. Obviously all of this isn't true all the time, but it's a very good guideline to go by.

 

[john123]

A spec bump will be seen at some point before broadwell, Intel have to be seen to be doing something. Additionally I've been around long enough to have seen that Apple seem to like repackaging very similar tech in a new enclosure, which is also making me sit on the fence.

There is no standard upgrade cycle, but the cycle can be estimated and discussed, to have the standpoint that nothing will come for a significant time is completely against the technology industry.

The most likely option is a drop-in processor replacement with on change to the GPU. That's exactly the approach they took last February.