Removal of useless apps (if they are gone they cannot run for any reason)

[siliconGeek]

I had hopes that Apple would finally try some consideration to users and allow us to remove useless apps from Our systems by this time.

No, it appears they did the opposite and added more nagging and useless (to me) apps.

It starts with the usual intelligent choice to remove bloatware that reduces Users resources... and also eliminate dead code (code that has no reason to run on the installation).

However, it has grown to beyond that. Now, I want to remove the nags which have no value to anyone (other than to further exacerbate the problem of bloatware). I have no reason for almost all of the forced apps. These include but are not limited to:
- Music (silence is the best aural entertainment for me)
- Podcasts (never heard one.. have no desire to change.. if I did it'd be on my Android for portability)
- Photo booth (no camera ... no need)
- Maps (this system won't travel... no need for that either)
- Voice memos (I didnt even do this when it was intelligent and we carried cassette recorders)
- Stocks (sorry ... no gambling here.. and worse... it has deep permissions and unremovable account)
- News (nope... not news to me.... my news comes from sources not regurgitators)
- Home (Since it has no visible use in a networked rendering engine... also undesired)
- Find My (it is on my desk... solved ... no need for the app)
- Contacts (got them where they belong ... in my phone or in my email server)
- TV (have not seen TV in decades ... this also continuously gives me a nag to pet it - aka join)
- Siri (what is this? OK I have heard of it. It is nothing I have a use for)
- Messages (i can send messages to myself? this is not on the internet ... nor do I use IM other than for work)
- Photos (no camera no need)
- Mail (I have an app... works great ... and this system can't get to a MX address anyway)
- Books (not going to read books in a headless system)


So, how does one remove these undesired and annoying things from Our system (and stop the nags from both the apps and my firewall because of security violations originating in the Mac)?

Thanks for information on how to rid these useless items from my system and network traffic.

Cheers

 

[bsamcash]

Just delete them from the Applications folder. You might get promoted for your password. But this may cause some errors when using other applications and they may get reinstalled during updates.

 

[siliconGeek]

Just delete them from the Applications folder. You might get promoted for your password. But this may cause some errors when using other applications and they may get reinstalled during updates.

Thanks

Good idea.. it did work ... for a few OS versions.

For a test I used the least useful bloatware TV.app.

Sadly 'sudo bash' followed by 'rm -rf /Applications/TV.app' did remove the directory.
I found it (also) in /System/Applications/TV.app... and TRIED remove it too.

The junk still is there and continues to nag me to pet it.

Results imply that the sole owner of this equipment is disallowed managing it to their needs.

In short... this method of Users management of their Own systems has been removed.

 

[Nihilvor]

I think that people usually disable SIP to do this. Let us know if you have any luck. I use most of what you listed, but there are couple things that I have no use for.

 

[siliconGeek]

I think that people usually disable SIP to do this. Let us know if you have any luck. I use most of what you listed, but there are couple things that I have no use for.

Thanks again... were it so easy. If disabling SIP is what I think it is ...

Using the long power on press to get to recovery mode and then to a shell and then sudo bash and running csrutil disable followed by a reboot ... I no longer get a permissions error. I get a read-only FS error.

Yeah none of that stuff has been used on my product I have owned. And that includes ~9 tablets, ~12 Mac/Macbook/PowerMac systems. Useless stuff to me. It renders, compiles, and serves files. Or it lets me browse the internet and use good (and less abusive of the user) web based apps on the tablet.

They make reducing threat footprint on Apple products harder and harder as they go. Which is part of the reason I stopped using Apple products for ~3 years. I cannot trust them to keep data ONLY where I want it.

 

[choreo]

I guess it would be nice to be able to deselect apps during OS install, but not holding my breath. Only need 3 apps in your list:

Mail
Messages
Find My: I may need it to locate my iPhone that I never use so I can in turn use it to locate my air tag on my keys which are usually hanging around my neck!

 

[siliconGeek]

I guess it would be nice to be a bale to deselect apps during OS install, but not holding my breath. Only need 3 apps in your list:

Mail
Messages
Find My: I may need it to locate my iPhone that I never use so I can in turn use it to locate my air tag on my keys which are usually hanging around my neck!

Allowing product owners to make decisions on what their possessions do? Are you an anarchist? (j/k... but not).

- The mail app has been substandard since its beginning. Eudora still outclasses the last version I tried to make useful. Also, I see no value in making copies of my email (nor its metadata) on my device. Increases data usage, reduced security, and seems plain silly (IMO)
- If I cannot find my device ... too bad I must not have my eyes open.
- I prefer IM that actually is Individual. Messages seems built to prevent that.

 

[Fishrrman]

OP wrote in post 3 above:
"Results imply that the sole owner of this equipment is disallowed managing it to their needs."

Yes.

"In short... this method of Users management of their Own systems has been removed."

Yes.

This is the future that Apple envisions for us.
(nothing follows)

Hmmm....
If I really wanted those apps "gone", I'd try this:
- Boot from an external drive
- Overcome permissions on internal volume by clicking on internal drive icon, invoking "get info", unlocking "get info" with my password, and put a check into "ignore ownership on this volume" (sharing and permissions)
- Manually delete the unwanted apps.

The above approach may no longer work (with at least SOME of the apps), due to the "SSV" (secure system volume) approach that Apple uses with Big Sur...

 

[siliconGeek]

Thanks Fishrrman... I will research how to build a USB bootable drive.

OP wrote in post 3 above:
"Results imply that the sole owner of this equipment is disallowed managing it to their needs."

Yes.

Reason to stop using their stuff

"In short... this method of Users management of their Own systems has been removed."

Yes.

More reason to stop using their stuff

As an example of violation of privacy...
While on the console I had appstore running. I ran Apple Developer 'app'. It asked me if I wanted to let Apple know my usage of the app (false offer evident by what follows). When I got passed that screen... app store started pushing their developer cruft at me. Sorry, that is telling Apple of my usage ... so the offer was false, incorrect, and ... ultimately irrelevant... If they are going to lie... try not to be so blatant at flaunting it to the victim.

This is the future that Apple envisions for us.
(nothing follows)

Hmmm....
If I really wanted those apps "gone", I'd try this:
- Boot from an external drive
- Overcome permissions on internal volume by clicking on internal drive icon, invoking "get info", unlocking "get info" with my password, and put a check into "ignore ownership on this volume" (sharing and permissions)
- Manually delete the unwanted apps.

The above approach may no longer work (with at least SOME of the apps), due to the "SSV" (secure system volume) approach that Apple uses with Big Sur...

 

[pritcee]

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't really think macOS (or windows for that matter) is an OS that fits your use case. Might I suggest some flavour of linux?

 

[Nihilvor]

I had hopes that Apple would finally try some consideration to users and allow us to remove useless apps from Our systems by this time.

No, it appears they did the opposite and added more nagging and useless (to me) apps.

It starts with the usual intelligent choice to remove bloatware that reduces Users resources... and also eliminate dead code (code that has no reason to run on the installation).

However, it has grown to beyond that. Now, I want to remove the nags which have no value to anyone (other than to further exacerbate the problem of bloatware). I have no reason for almost all of the forced apps. These include but are not limited to:
- Music (silence is the best aural entertainment for me)
- Podcasts (never heard one.. have no desire to change.. if I did it'd be on my Android for portability)
- Photo booth (no camera ... no need)
- Maps (this system won't travel... no need for that either)
- Voice memos (I didnt even do this when it was intelligent and we carried cassette recorders)
- Stocks (sorry ... no gambling here.. and worse... it has deep permissions and unremovable account)
- News (nope... not news to me.... my news comes from sources not regurgitators)
- Home (Since it has no visible use in a networked rendering engine... also undesired)
- Find My (it is on my desk... solved ... no need for the app)
- Contacts (got them where they belong ... in my phone or in my email server)
- TV (have not seen TV in decades ... this also continuously gives me a nag to pet it - aka join)
- Siri (what is this? OK I have heard of it. It is nothing I have a use for)
- Messages (i can send messages to myself? this is not on the internet ... nor do I use IM other than for work)
- Photos (no camera no need)
- Mail (I have an app... works great ... and this system can't get to a MX address anyway)
- Books (not going to read books in a headless system)


So, how does one remove these undesired and annoying things from Our system (and stop the nags from both the apps and my firewall because of security violations originating in the Mac)?

Thanks for information on how to rid these useless items from my system and network traffic.

Cheers

You mentioned being nagged by these apps. What do you mean by that? I don't receive any "nags" from the apps that I don't use. Are these system notifications (maybe something that you can turn off)? If you use something like little snitch or firewall management, you might be able to block related network activity.

If it's more an issue of space, I know that these apps have supplemental system files that could be manually purged from your drive, such as the photo library (which can be a couple gigs in size).

 

[siliconGeek]

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't really think macOS (or windows for that matter) is an OS that fits your use case. Might I suggest some flavour of linux?

Thank I agree... and this is why.

Linux is what I use mostly.
Windows is what I use begrudgingly.
Mac I used for ~15 years because it was nearly Linux and a refined on top of a POSIX environment.

So, when I get to the point. I will see if I can put an OS that does not disrespect the user (person who paid for the thing) onto this M1. However, part of this foray back into spyware OS's was to gain exposure to the M1.

 

[siliconGeek]

You mentioned being nagged by these apps. What do you mean by that? I don't receive any "nags" from the apps that I don't use. Are these system notifications (maybe something that you can turn off)? If you use something like little snitch or firewall management, you might be able to block related network activity.

If it's more an issue of space, I know that these apps have supplemental system files that could be manually purged from your drive, such as the photo library (which can be a couple gigs in size).

Red flags on the icons are the predominant NAG. Red==BAD. Fix by removing nagging app I don't want, won't use, is not even inline with any of my daily activities for (~4.5) decades of personal and professional computing. Apps deciding that they really need me to log in periodically and popping up (and requiring FQ to get them out of my face).
And of course there is the 'Stocks' app that forced me to have a back door account which cannot be removed (nor is it shown in 'security' nor 'Users'). And, there was the email I got stating I had signed into services like imessages and facetime... NO! I just booted an OS for the first time. The OS did this in direct violation of privacy and trust.

Of course there are the reports from my external firewalls (yep, one in this office and one for the premises... and not one designed to ignore selective traffic of their partner or marketing department like those half baked in-system firewalls many think protect them) that show that it is also doing its level best to phone home with your private data.
None of the above are frequent with Windows 10 (as tested by 3rd party network TAP). It has options which consider that (most of) the Customers intelligent privacy choices CAN be considered by the OS vender. Things like applications that are removable or not even forced on us at all. And, even a brand new Windows 10 system phones home to steal my data less than this OS does after setup and at idle. Sure, I want to remove 'Phone' and Maps and Camera from Windows and can't. But they don't nag me to use it with flags nor do I see traffic from them on my network.

Rules of thumb of most IT:
- If I did not knowingly and intentionally induce network activity ... it should never happen
- If I did not knowingly and intentionally install an application... it should never be on the platform.
- Don't waste time and money on false sense of protection with 'virus scanners', clone the OS and refresh it from the (cold stored) clone periodically (of course management is sold on these farces, and it is hard to refresh a system abroad if you fail to plan for it. So, these scam companies get your data from your computer during 'scanning for viruses')
- Only sign in on-use. And never if you won't use the functionality.

This OS violate these simple and intelligent rules far more than Windows with little recourse other than to ignore the icon, enjoy the app periodically disrespecting the users choice not to use the app and demanding that I use it ...such as TV (had this system less than a week and this happened more than 10 times with TV, a few times with Siri. And firewall firewall firewall (oh and never allow UpNP, nor IPV6 traffic outside the premises... if at all).

It'd be nice to remove the browsers on both OSs and use a good if any. But, after all the work spent to get them deep hooks into the OS so it can be claimed vital to operation, we know this won't happen. Best that can be done is find the conditions which induce the misbehavior of not using the default browser and avoid or correct them.

 

[DaveP]

Can you please explain the deep permissions on the Stocks app? I'm not familiar with the term "deep permissions" in this use case.

 

[siliconGeek]

Can you please explain the deep permissions on the Stocks app? I'm not familiar with the term "deep permissions" in this use case.

I will locate the odd Stocks account I had found that is not present in the Users nor security and post a pic if I can. I cannot remove it.

The term 'deep permissions' was ad-hoc contrived by me. But basically, permissions disallowed by owner/root/admin (which should never exist- Ever!).

 

[pritcee]

Thank I agree... and this is why.

Linux is what I use mostly.
Windows is what I use begrudgingly.
Mac I used for ~15 years because it was nearly Linux and a refined on top of a POSIX environment.

So, when I get to the point. I will see if I can put an OS that does not disrespect the user (person who paid for the thing) onto this M1. However, part of this foray back into spyware OS's was to gain exposure to the M1.

If you've used OS X for 15ish years, you'll definitely be intimately familiar with what applications can and cannot be removed. You're a Unix guy mate. Go in, remove whatever applications you feel like removing.

Your comment on "Red flags on the icons are the predominant NAG." just dont use the dock. remove the applications you dont feel like using from the dock. dont touch them. use a network monitoring app like little snitch, block all outgoing connections to each and every application and daemon and process that you don't want accessing the internet. Its literally not ****ing difficult for a self proclaimed linux power user. NONE of the issues you raised should cause you even a SECOND worth of deliberation.

Any power user worth their ****ing salt knows how to ****ing stop network traffic, both at an OS level, or if need be directly from your router/switch/whatever device you use to filter your network usage throughout your LAN. I *literally* do not see how any of this is a ****ing issue, other than you just wanting to use large words and try to garner some attention.

Don't like the stocks app? disable SIP, elevate privileges using the terminal and delete it. As a veteran mac user you should be INTIMATELY aware that most applications are nothing but a folder with a fancy extension that Finder treats differently. just ****ing go in, delete whatever you feel like.

Once again, if you *are* as tech savvy as you try making yourself out to be, you should know that not all operating systems are geared towards the same user base. RHEL isnt geared towards the same user base as ubuntu, or fedora. Pop OS and the like aren't geared towards the ubuntu crowd either. And i'm pretty sure that you can follow that particular logic and conclude that macOS might not be a BSD flavour that is particularly geared towards you. The same ****ing way you wouldn't really be taking CentOS or RHEL and trying to play COD on it, I very much doubt macOS is what you are looking for.

 

[siliconGeek]

If you've used OS X for 15ish years, you'll definitely be intimately familiar with what applications can and cannot be removed. You're a Unix guy mate. Go in, remove whatever applications you feel like removing.

When sudo bash ... rm -rf fails ... there is far too little control.

Your comment on "Red flags on the icons are the predominant NAG." just dont use the dock. remove the applications you dont feel like using from the dock. dont touch them. use a network monitoring app like little snitch, block all outgoing connections to each and every application and daemon and process that you don't want accessing the internet. Its literally not ****ing difficult for a self proclaimed linux power user. NONE of the issues you raised should cause you even a SECOND worth of deliberation.

When I open the applications I get the red flag on this junk app called TV. if it were gone. No flag. Simple

Any power user worth their ****ing salt knows how to ****ing stop network traffic, both at an OS level, or if need be directly from your router/switch/whatever device you use to filter your network usage throughout your LAN. I *literally* do not see how any of this is a ****ing issue, other than you just wanting to use large words and try to garner some attention.

I see... and you probably feel that the solution to SPAM is not to stop it at the origin but block it at the destination too. If the traffic is never generated... I don't have to muck with firewalls and then find there is some other port I need to open/close to operate. Best no traffic originating by anything other user express and knowing decision ever than to constantly make firewall a hobby.

Don't like the stocks app? disable SIP, elevate privileges using the terminal and delete it. As a veteran mac user you should be INTIMATELY aware that most applications are nothing but a folder with a fancy extension that Finder treats differently. just ****ing go in, delete whatever you feel like.

Having TRIED to remove an app by going into safe boot and TRYING an rm -rf as SU.. I find that the file is in a READ ONLY FS

Once again, if you *are* as tech savvy as you try making yourself out to be, you should know that not all operating systems are geared towards the same user base. RHEL isnt geared towards the same user base as ubuntu, or fedora. Pop OS and the like aren't geared towards the ubuntu crowd either. And i'm pretty sure that you can follow that particular logic and conclude that macOS might not be a BSD flavour that is particularly geared towards you. The same ****ing way you wouldn't really be taking CentOS or RHEL and trying to play COD on it, I very much doubt macOS is what you are looking for.

Saying macOS is BSD is like saying Android is Linux... yes... much of the code is similar. However, if it were actual BSD then sudo bash; rm -rf will work.

 

[pritcee]

When sudo bash ... rm -rf fails ... there is far too little control.

When I open the applications I get the red flag on this junk app called TV. if it were gone. No flag. Simple


I see... and you probably feel that the solution to SPAM is not to stop it at the origin but block it at the destination too. If the traffic is never generated... I don't have to muck with firewalls and then find there is some other port I need to open/close to operate. Best no traffic originating by anything other user express and knowing decision ever than to constantly make firewall a hobby.

Having TRIED to remove an app by going into safe boot and TRYING an rm -rf as SU.. I find that the file is in a READ ONLY FS

Saying macOS is BSD is like saying Android is Linux... yes... much of the code is similar. However, if it were actual BSD then sudo bash; rm -rf will work.

Elevate. privileges. the system, as well as pre-bundled software FROM apple, is sandboxed in a read-only volume. mount that ****. safe mode in macOS simply is an environment where third party kernel extensions are disabled. safe mode is for debugging whether your system has any issues caused by third party applications or the core system itself. You can't expect to remove **** from a read-only volume mate. IIRC you would need to unseal your system volume. mind you, once you do that, you will not be able to urn on system level encryption again since you ****ed about with the files.

And im sorry but opening the applications folder shouldn't give you a RED FLAG on any app icon. because thats what they ****ing are, folders with shiny pretty icons. They're not applets or anything. The ONLY time a red notification flag is added to an application icon is on the dock, and that too is BY the dock app.

I think it would be really great if you would attach SCREENSHOTS regarding what your ****ing self-proclaimed RED FLAG is.

 

[macdos]

They will just be installed again, so why bother. Apple is a secluded app garden, like America Online a thousand years ago.

 

[siliconGeek]

Elevate. privileges. the system, as well as pre-bundled software FROM apple, is sandboxed in a read-only volume. mount that ****. safe mode in macOS simply is an environment where third party kernel extensions are disabled. safe mode is for debugging whether your system has any issues caused by third party applications or the core system itself. You can't expect to remove **** from a read-only volume mate. IIRC you would need to unseal your system volume. mind you, once you do that, you will not be able to urn on system level encryption again since you ****ed about with the files.

And im sorry but opening the applications folder shouldn't give you a RED FLAG on any app icon. because thats what they ****ing are, folders with shiny pretty icons. They're not applets or anything. The ONLY time a red notification flag is added to an application icon is on the dock, and that too is BY the dock app.

I think it would be really great if you would attach SCREENSHOTS regarding what your ****ing self-proclaimed RED FLAG is.

I will remount the file system as suggested.
I speculate that you are feeding Apple your addiction to useless stuff (TV, movies, radio,...); you cannot see what happens to those who have better sense than to waste time, energy, money, brain cells by staring at a useless tube rather than actually doing things.

So, these pictures are the 'red flags' you likely will never see based on predictable addictive behavior of signing in.

 

[siliconGeek]

They will just be installed again, so why bother. Apple is a secluded app garden, like America Online a thousand years ago.

And that is the subsequent problem.
My system.
My use case
My decision on what happens to My system
I guess the answer is to either take updates sparingly or not at all if this happens after I finally rid a computer of tablet apps

 

[pritcee]

LOL launchpad? who the **** even uses launchpad? Spotlight or Alfred – MUCH easier (and more importantly, KEYBOARD BASED) ways of launching applications. Or in a pinch, drag your applications folder into the dock, creates a clickable stack.

Launchpad, since the day it was introduced in OSX Lion, has been a mind numbingly dumb way of organising, accessing and launching applications.

 

[siliconGeek]

LOL launchpad? who the **** even uses launchpad? Spotlight or Alfred – MUCH easier (and more importantly, KEYBOARD BASED) ways of launching applications. Or in a pinch, drag your applications folder into the dock, creates a clickable stack.

Launchpad, since the day it was introduced in OSX Lion, has been a mind numbingly dumb way of organising, accessing and launching applications.

Regardless of its your opinion on this...

So... again... the problem is this useless thing still shows red flags in the cases I use the X interface. Since this is a system that will be audited by 'auditors' (people who don't get deeper than data flow and system errors/flags... it will NOT be in production... and the intended order of more will be cancelled as there can be no errant network traffic nor system level flags such as this.

It cannot even be used for its intended use as a compute engine without the horrid GUI from Apple if these are not resolved.

 

[pritcee]

Regardless of its your opinion on this...

AND THERE WE HAVE IT.

It cannot even be used for its intended use as a compute engine without the horrid GUI from Apple

regardless of YOUR opinion on this, this is a non issue. bye bye.

 

[siliconGeek]

AND THERE WE HAVE IT.

regardless of YOUR opinion on this, this is a non issue. bye bye.

I would have to say that your opinion on a GUI element is very irrelevant to OS subjects... so bye... i will try the remount and thanks for your assaults, grousing, and a tadbit of possibly useful information.

As for it being a non-issue. It definitely may be such for people who buy buy observe and grouse . For people who know what privacy is and care and do things other than watch TV and buy ... it does matter

And as for it not even be used for its intended use as a compute engine without the horrid GUI from Apple if these are not resolved.

No, this is not MY opinion (only). It is the opinion and requirements of corporate security ... of companies who know what privacy is and care