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One aspect I feel I'd like to address is the common view which I think is a mistake and it goes something like this.

Wow, you have seen just how fast the current A14 chips are in the iPhone and iPad. Can you just imagine how fast they will be when they have a ton more power to feed them and large heat sinks to cool them.

I've seen the about type comment again and again, and even I thought it. However, I'm feeling this is wrong.

When has Apple ever really stuck a MASSIVE heatsink onto a chip in a laptop device?
Some of the latest laptops hardly have any decent heatsink at all, which why they run so hot and on the edge of throttling.
Likewise, throwing loads of power at it?
Have you seen the batteries in a large iPad ? Why is a think and light laptop going to have vastly larger batteries?

Whilst there mat be a little room to change, I feel it wrong to expect some major power delivery and cooling changes inside an ARM laptop that's not already in a high end iPad.

Welcome to hear your views on this.
I have considered the same points, and am tempering my expectations of Apple Silicon performance.

Apple needs to stick to a power budget in their laptops - probably initially between 10-25W. This is more than an iPad, and with thermal management, should be able to maintain this for much longer than a passively cooled device.

What does this power budget buy you?

You can increase clock speeds, but this probably requires increasing voltage, and power usage increases with the square of voltage - so this is limited to at most a 50% increase.

You can add more CPU cores - but each performance core uses 3-5W, so again there is a limit. An 8+4 (performance/low-power) would be a stretch in a 25W laptop, and 4 + 4 is more likely.

You can add specific SoC features, to optimize certain software features. This seems more likely, but the increases would only be seen in specific tasks.

You can add GPU cores - but have to balance GPU power with CPU & other stuff. A 10-15W GPU seems unlikely to compete with a 50W dGPU particularly using shared memory.

And very importantly, you can simply not spend it, and get better battery life.

So yes, Apple Silicon in a Mac laptop/desktop should be significantly faster - maybe 30-50%, and with better battery life, but I don't expect it to be mind-blowing.
 
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I have considered the same points, and am tempering my expectations of Apple Silicon performance.

Apple needs to stick to a power budget in their laptops - probably initially between 10-25W. This is more than an iPad, and with thermal management, should be able to maintain this for much longer than a passively cooled device.

What does this power budget buy you?

You can increase clock speeds, but this probably requires increasing voltage, and power usage increases with the square of voltage - so this is limited to at most a 50% increase.

You can add more CPU cores - but each performance core uses 3-5W, so again there is a limit. An 8+4 (performance/low-power) would be a stretch in a 25W laptop, and 4 + 4 is more likely.

You can add specific SoC features, to optimize certain software features. This seems more likely, but the increases would only be seen in specific tasks.

You can add GPU cores - but have to balance GPU power with CPU & other stuff. A 10-15W GPU seems unlikely to compete with a 50W dGPU particularly using shared memory.

And very importantly, you can simply not spend it, and get better battery life.

So yes, Apple Silicon in a Mac laptop/desktop should be significantly faster - maybe 30-50%, and with better battery life, but I don't expect it to be mind-blowing.

I agree with all you have said.
And this can perhaps let Apple off the hook a bit when it comes to comparisons with Intel, as you don't have high end Intel chips in most thin and light laptops :)

When we shall have a much better idea for comparison should be in a new ARM iMac.
Now you will have mains power coming in, so there's no reason to have to hold back to save battery.
Likewise then you can fit major cooling solutions (not that Apple are actually well know for that) but given the space it can be done if they chose to.
I can very easily see a new ARM iMac which looking more like a GIANT iPad than the current design with the bulge in the middle.

One thing I know I'd do if I were Apple would be to change the design of all ARM products in a very easily noticeable way.
To make sure anyone who see's one of these new devices instantly know's it's an ARM based machine.

Finally..... What about touch? It's obvious, despite all Apple have said in the past that touch screens will come to laptops, if not desktops.
I wonder if they will make touch part of these new devices from day 1, or it will come a few more generations down the line?
Touch could be a very defining change to bring to this new generation of products.
 
Its funny that everyone is excited for ARM macs, if what they say is true, then we shouldn't expect anything other than your usual MacOS running without the ability to run bootcamp. Just like when they transitioned from ppc-> intel.
I'm a little surprised the Mac mini isn't going ARM early on given its lower usage in the home and industry. Sounds like a good and fairly low-impact early product for this. They have some balls to begin with laptops of all things!

Seeing how Apple neglects the Mac Mini, I am guessing the sales numbers are very low.
 
What did you expect? Perhaps more than ever, you’ve had loads of warning. Apple announced they are transitioning to their own chips back in June.

I expected a computer that was just updated to have a longer time of relevance. They keep talking about a two-year transition, so I assumed (hoped) the iMac would come near the end.

In any case, I ordered a beast, so it should serve me well for years as long and third parties continue to support.
 
Can’t say I love this, as I just ordered a new iMac last night...
I ordered one last week (it should arrive at the end of the week or early next week), and I’m good with this. Now I can wait for at least the second iteration of the AS iMac before I buy one.
 
Question is how easily that limit can be changed. Maybe there is a single constant defined in the operating system which decides the maximum number of cores, and that number can be changed from 64 to 128 or 256 or something bigger. Maybe someone decided "we will never have more than 64 cores, so we don't need to change this" and that limit is built into many places. We don't know. But with 56 virtual cores available in actual machines today, I would have given someone the task to make this changeable a while ago.

The question really is how much does Apple want to push such a change into the kernel of the iOS , tvOS , and iPad OS. Not much.

It is a data structure problem not a 'constant'. Need to keep a bitmap of the processors in part so can do assignments of work allocations , affinities , etc. The core work the central process/thread scheduler does. If using a 64 bit 'word' to track the processors then more than 64 is a hard cap set by the data structure.

Can wave hands and say just flip that to two 64-bit words but that change will ripple all through the scheduler. The scheduler also has real time constraints that also have to still meet. Also start to get more NUMA effects that long and broader the core interactions are which also figure into scheduler allocation heuristics.

This is all "doable". But typically there is a mild 'fork' between the server scheduler and the mainstream scheduler in the OS. Apple doesn't have a separate server OS track. They didn't even have a seperate track back when they had a "Mac OS Server" product. It always was basically set of applications bundled, not a fundamental retuning and/or customized kernel core for servers.

HFS+ began to fork between iOS and macOS. Apple went to AFPS to merge those back into a more manageable unified set of code. Most of APFS is geared toward a single , internal , Apple built , SSD drive. Larger high end multiple petabyte data integrity features would see in a server oriented OS ???? .... nope. No where to be found.
Multiple storage disk management. Outside of a mild kludge for Fusion drives .... nope.

macOS 11 on ARM cover multiple GPU implementations? nope. ( at least on now and wouldn't be surprising stays in place until macOS 11.1 ).

It is pretty clear which product is running primary lead on common kernel development. It isn't the very high end Mac Pro user base. The norm of the kernel feature set is aimed at iPhones , iPad Pro, and highest volume Mac laptops. That's probably where Apple is going to continue to put the bulk of their kernel development resources. Apple is putting far more effort into kicking 3rd party extensions out of the kernel then chasing a mega monster next iteration of the Mac Pro.


On the other hand, there may be bottlenecks that are Ok(ish) with 64 cores and hit hard when you have 100.

AMD's Threadripper products have suffered numerous performance blocks with Windows kernel scheduler and allocator mismatches between the system design and the OS. And Microsoft is trying to cover a far more diverse set of CPU designs. Apple isn't. It anything Apple will likely be doing a smaller set of design variations once they move to Apple Silicon , not a larger set.


It is just far lower effort for Apple to just throw transistor budget at Apple specific fixed function ( image/video processing , apple specific ML cores , integrated GPU 'cores' ) than chase the "insatiable x86 core count application workloads." . Mac aren't going to do 'scale out' or 'scale up' data center deployments for the most part either. ( some in the relatively narrow niche Apple plays in now where just trying to stay on legal side of virtualization and run macOS images, but broad generic workloads ... no). For fixed function logic all the OS/apps have to is dispatch work to them and it comes back 'done'. Not much additional scheduling work to do there other than perhaps 'wake' up when done.
 
, with Apple planning to launch the new models in the fourth quarter of 2020 or early in 2021 at the earliest.
SO, since we're in Q4 2020, that means they launch tomorrow, "at the earliest", or at some point in the future. Great prediction, but couldn't anyone have confidently "predicted" that?
 
But the larger package required to support the much higher thermal envelope will have plenty of room for more (and faster) IO pins.

More pins means a bigger silicon die inside the package also. ( not quite the same proportion bigger, but bigger). Bigger day likely leads to more power. It isn't like Apple is going to put a generic A14 die in a twice as big physical package primarily based on cooling.

The 'X' series solutions already don't have the RAM layered on the larger footprint package.

This isn't primarily about Apple just 'overclocking' the iPhone chip and slapping a bigger cooler on top. The following is an Intel gen 10 Ice Lake die with Thunderbolt v3 4 port I/O built-in

700px-ice_lake_die_%28quad_core%29_%28annotated%29.png



The "system agent" (green) area is collectively larger than the cores are. The green rectangle area above the Gen 11 GPU is just Thunderbolt all by itself. (again on the size level of being about level of a single core. It isn't small. And it is entirely indicative of the kinds of normal "desktop" features that Apple has historically left out of the A-series. The A-series dies are small just as much for what Apple has thrown "out" of inclusion than what they have included.

Apple could (pobably should since they've never done something of that complexity) 'punt' Thunderbolt controllers fom their SoC but still would be left with provisioning x8-to-x16 lanes of PCI-e v3 (which they haven't done either) and far more USB 2 lanes to flush out the elements needed for the baseline Type-C port requirements.
 
I expected a computer that was just updated to have a longer time of relevance. They keep talking about a two-year transition, so I assumed (hoped) the iMac would come near the end.

In any case, I ordered a beast, so it should serve me well for years as long and third parties continue to support.
If you ordered the 27" iMac, then I wouldn't expect to see an Apple Silicon version until late 2021, maybe even 2022 for the equivalent of the iMac Pro or latest 8 & 10-core iMac, so quite near the end of the transition, with only the Mac Pro remaining.

If you ordered a 21.5"...well...the rumors of a 24" iMac in early-mid 2021 have been around for a while.
 
Zillions of Raspberry Pi’s in use as ARM based desktops. No toy, I run Mathematica on mine. In price/performance, a Raspberry Pi 4 currently beats any Mac.

But I expect Apple Silicon to blow it away in pure speed.
Thermal envelope of Pi is very different from current iMac chips. Not comparable in terms of what I was thinking.
 
It is pretty clear which product is running primary lead on common kernel development. It isn't the very high end Mac Pro user base. The norm of the kernel feature set is aimed at iPhones , iPad Pro, and highest volume Mac laptops. That's probably where Apple is going to continue to put the bulk of their kernel development resources. Apple is putting far more effort into kicking 3rd party extensions out of the kernel then chasing a mega monster next iteration of the Mac Pro.
If true, where does that leave the future of the Mac Pro?
 
I ordered one last week (it should arrive at the end of the week or early next week), and I’m good with this. Now I can wait for at least the second iteration of the AS iMac before I buy one.
How long are you planning to keep the iMac for? I'm holding out for the revision as I plan to keep mine for as long as possible, I've had my current iMac for 8 years
 
Uhh... Windows is already available on ARM! Been out for quite a while. Not every game has been cross compiled, that’s for sure.
Uhh not with Apples Macs it isnt.. its been widely covered that Apple Silicon Macs wont have Boot Camp support..


Apple later confirmed it’s not planning to support Boot Camp on ARM-based Macs in a Daring Fireball podcast. “We’re not direct booting an alternate operating system,” says Craig Federighi
 
You can think it in reverse -- low energy consumption means you can pack in more cores in a desktop workstation.
While Intel tops at 28 cores UMA and AMD tops at 64 cores UMA, you can have a 100 or more cores UMA ARM chip in the same power envelope (about 200W).
That's true, and I am really looking forward to the A series equipped pro machines where this matters.
For the Mac mini however, the max number of cores on a die is not really relevant.
 
apple.com says you can buy a 21.5" with only Intel Iris Plus 640 integrated GPU.
Yes, I didn't consider the non-retina iMac that's barely been updated since 2017.
When Apple introduces a new iMac with Apple silicon, it's not going to replace that model only (which has a terrible value). It's going to replace the whole 21.5" line-up at least. So it's got to be faster than the best 21.5" model.
 
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considering buying the iMac i7+5700xt. could you please give me a bit more reference on the issues? Tx!
All the issues that i have seen reported on the Apple Communities Forums were mainly targeting the iMac 2020 with the 5700XT card.

Issues mentioned were:
1) Glitch line (affected around 60% the iMacs)
2) Weird graphics anomaly in the corner areas of the screen (I personally didn't have this issue)
3) True Tone showing on for half the screen and off for the other half (a simple toggle of on/off fixed it) but was sporadic.
4) Intermittent blue tooth connectivity drops (i had this with my second unit (Replacement unit), but not the first one)
5) Lock ups and reboots (had this happen on both units - initial purchase unit and replacement). Seemed like the replacement unit did it more frequently as i had only had the problem once with my first unit.. but repeatedly with my replacement unit.

There was an MacOS update, that seemed to fix the Bluetooth and Glitch line (which was a 1 pixel line that would just flash out of no where, but always seemed to originate from the mouse cursor to an edge of the screen..)
The other issue it seemed to address was lock ups and reboot (for some people).

If you are looking at the new iMac 2020 and are looking at the 5500 card or the non XT card you should be fine, There were some people who posted issue with the 5500XT version of the card, but they were far and few. The 5700XT seemed to be the largest of pool when it came to issues reported.

Don't get me wrong i loved the new iMac, but the issues at first were just causing tons of reliability and productivity issues for me. I am hoping when they do get everything resolved that i will get a chance to pick up the 2020 again. My biggest reason for the purchase was the nano texture glass (which is awesome! if you are trying to cut down on screen reflection), but also the SSD storage options for 4gb and 8gb... Going from the Vega Pro 48 card to the 5700XT was also good, but the Vega is more a video editing card where i feel the 5700XT is more for graphics, games and general multimedia stuff. All-in-all your really cant go wrong with either card and it mainly just depends on what you are using it for.. I would definitely recommend checking out the forums and seeing if anyone else is still reporting issues prior to getting the 5700XT option.

Hope this helps (Links to the Apple Community Forum issues, well 2 of them.)

Link to forum:


Link for True Tone issue
 
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How long are you planning to keep the iMac for? I'm holding out for the revision as I plan to keep mine for as long as possible, I've had my current iMac for 8 years
Probably about 2 - 3 years. I usually run computers until they die or are about to die, but I’m way past tired of that. I’ll keep this last Intel iMac for awhile, then sell it and put that loot towards an Apple Silicon iMac.
 
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Faster than Intel eh?

I hope you have a hat, as I'll be asking you to eat it. These are CPUs intended for telephones. The idea of putting them into desktop PCs is frankly absurd.
Those telephone CPUs are already faster than many desktop CPUs.

Apple is not putting them into desktop PCs. They are putting them in Macs.
 
Well, in 4 weeks or less we'll all know.

I do hope it's more factual than the iPhone event. 5G 5G 5G 5G 5G
But Apple does seem to want to glam up things at recent events than the older more honest/tech ones with Steve.

I'd rather have proper info that a glossy show, so I'm ready for that!
We'll have to wait for REAL reviewers of course to get the good stuff.
It’ll be as factual as marketing allows. :) In other words, sizzle during the event, a lot of the “proper” info will be on their website. Mainly because “proper” info doesn’t make for an entertaining marketing event.

One aspect I feel I'd like to address is the common view which I think is a mistake and it goes something like this.

Wow, you have seen just how fast the current A14 chips are in the iPhone and iPad. Can you just imagine how fast they will be when they have a ton more power to feed them and large heat sinks to cool them.
There was a recent iPhone, can’t remember which one, that, if you ran the benchmark in the fridge, you’d get better results because the throttling didn’t kick in. Mainly because they’re constrained on both power and cooling (because Apple wants to hit a specific battery life.

When you hear “ton more power” and “large heat sinks”, I THINK what they’re saying is... “more than 5W” and “some kind of cooling”. I don’t think Apple’s going to produce anything near what you’d expect from an Intel laptop/desktop (or an AMD desktop/laptop) Mainly, because the processor they have from a few years ago is already nipping at the heels of an i9. Slight uptick of power (probably don’t even have to hit 10W) and some more “space” for passive cooling and you could have a system that can beat an i9 at running macOS with little throttling.
 
Bringing back the 12" MacBook with Apples Arm chip makes sense. I just wonder how powerful it is going to be vs something like the MacBook Air?
It'll be much more performant than the macBook Air.

Judging by benchmarks, Apple could figuratively wrap the iPad Air 2020's A14 in a macBook skin and outperform the current macBook Air in single core(50%) multi core(30%) and compute (metal, 30%).

Sure, macOS is more thread-demanding, but slap in an A14Z and you still see performance gains in the 30% area at least.
 
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Those telephone CPUs are already faster than many desktop CPUs.

Apple is not putting them into desktop PCs. They are putting them in Macs.
Indeed, the A14 has among the best single-core geekbench score of all CPUs combined. And if it's like the A13, it would consume less than 5W to achieve that. PC CPUs yielding comparable scores in geekbench consume at least 3 times that amount. Some like to say that geekbench is bunk because they think that iPhones perform abnormally well. They're wrong. Geekbench results are consistent with industry standards like SCEC tests. Your iPhone CPU core is as fast as your fastest PC CPU core and consumes at least 3 times less energy. That's a fact.
Matching the best desktop CPUs is now just a question of number of cores, which Apple already masters. We'll get better performance than PCs at the same/lower power consumption. In particular, all cores may be able to run at full speed simultaneously ("turbo boost" as intel calls it), which is impossible on the PC.
Or we'll get the same performance at the fraction of the power, with a much longer battery life and lower noise.

The same will be true for the GPU. The graphics performance will greatly exceed that of comparable PCs (in particular thin laptops).
 
Judging by the last few posts it does sound like some people (not sure how many) have an expectation that Apple is about the launch a machine, if not this 1st one this year, but definitely new year which will be as fast as, or even faster than a top of the range Intel i9 based gaming desktop.

Just let me say, I'd love to see it, and I'm sure the whole gaming industry would also love to see it.
Hardcore games, who generally have a LOT of money would be buying such machines in the tens of thousands, and Game devs would be porting over and developing new AAA titles to run on such a machine.

Sounds great yes?
Yes, I'd say so, that sounds amazing.

However, very sadly I feel these people who are hinting/expecting this as very mistaken and this is simply not going to be the case.

!00% for sure, Apple can make a CPU/GPU combo with special acceleration aspects hard coded into part of the design, and they can have software created that directly takes advantage of such custom hardware.
Take 4K / 8K video editing as an example.

But that's not the same as crushing an Intel i9 crushing gaming PC in performance.

If you disagree and think I'm wrong with my view here and it WILL be as fast as some are expecting, I'd love to hear your reasoning.

Nothing I would love to see more would be Apple leading the pack at the forefront of PC Gaming, which, apart from Video editing is one area which will simply soak up as much raw power as you can throw at it.

I welcome viewpoints telling me I'm wrong here.
 
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