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And for what its worth, I think OS X is just as safe as it has to be, and not much more. Apple is a business, and they won't spend any more money on security than they have to... but I think they will spend as much as they need to. In other words, at this point there is no profit to be made by spending more money on security. Spend more on security will not bring the rate of malware infections down since the rate is very nearly zero.

You're right on. MS spent years ignoring the security folks until they finally got beat up so badly in the press about it that they redirected a lot of resources into fixing it.

The result? Vista had DEP and ASLR and a lot of professional vulnerability researchers found that writing exploits in Vista was REALLY time consuming and difficult.

Apple seems to be taking their dear sweet time with ASLR. This isn't a bad thing, however, since I have yet to get a virus on my MacBook. But the time is probably drawing nearer where Apple needs to step up their game... My impression is that most security experts now agree that Windows 7 is significantly safer than OS X.
 
In reality, if you are sitting at home on a network with a hardware firewall running a software firewall on any reasonably modern operating system with your accounts properly configured as well as your network and your not a complete idiot, your computer is most likely fairly safe regardless of its OS.

This is true, but meaningless.

Firewalls don't really mean much on a home network -- each computer is going to have a firewall on it anyway. Besides, how many computers are you going to leave plugged in at home all the time? I take my laptop everywhere and connect to wifi. Same with with my iphone.

Furthermore, most attacks now exploit the biggest fallibility in computing: the user. This is happening all over the country to businesses and government officials. Anybody who works with your data is susceptible, and may not be as smart as you when it comes to discerning which links are safe to click and which are not. Or which software is safe to run.

In fairness to the average user, clicking on a link should NEVER be able to generate a remote shell. But due to weaknesses in browsers and browser plugins, it DOES happen.

Also, pet peeve: it's "you're", not "your".
 
You're right on. MS spent years ignoring the security folks until they finally got beat up so badly in the press about it that they redirected a lot of resources into fixing it.

The result? Vista had DEP and ASLR and a lot of professional vulnerability researchers found that writing exploits in Vista was REALLY time consuming and difficult.

Apple seems to be taking their dear sweet time with ASLR. This isn't a bad thing, however, since I have yet to get a virus on my MacBook. But the time is probably drawing nearer where Apple needs to step up their game... My impression is that most security experts now agree that Windows 7 is significantly safer than OS X.

I think the true test for Apple is going to be how fast they start ramping up security if/when OS X starts to be targeted.

I'm no security specialist - I can only make conclusions based on what I see and read from knowledgeable folks (like some - but not necessarily many - of the people who post here).

What I see is that OS X is not being targeted in any meaningful way, and I ask myself "why"? I believe that OS X is "safe/secure" from any meaningful attack from amateurs.

So "why" aren't the professionals attacking it successfully? And by "successful" I mean in the wild - running loose, kind of way. The success that would bring them a profit. There is the "obscurity" theory, which I think is the same as "low market share." I believe that any single malware today is considered "rampant" if it manages to infect only 10% to 20% of it's potential targets.

Even 10% of all Macs is still a lot of bank accounts, so I think there is enough incentive there, if the task isn't too difficult.

So perhaps the task is too difficult. But if Charlie Miller has found a bunch of vulnerabilities that would likely be successful against the average Mac user, then why aren't there more of them? Perhaps it's because people who know how to do this recognize that Apple can plug holes quickly, and that most OS X installations tend to be fairly up to date.

Just some idle speculation. As I said, I'm waiting to see how fast Apple moves when they actually have to.
 
I'd lvoe to see an Apple apologist answer this.

Fact is, nobody gives a $%^& about a mac.

People have been trying. This piece smells of Microsoft. Any place there is something worth something, people will try. That analogy is a joke.
 
You're right on. MS spent years ignoring the security folks until they finally got beat up so badly in the press about it that they redirected a lot of resources into fixing it.

The result? Vista had DEP and ASLR and a lot of professional vulnerability researchers found that writing exploits in Vista was REALLY time consuming and difficult.

Apple seems to be taking their dear sweet time with ASLR. This isn't a bad thing, however, since I have yet to get a virus on my MacBook. But the time is probably drawing nearer where Apple needs to step up their game... My impression is that most security experts now agree that Windows 7 is significantly safer than OS X.

Yet my parent's Vista Home Premium machine still got hit with Antivirus 2010.

The question isn't how many exploits are there for attackers to use, but what happens after a vulnerability is exploited? What startup processes can be hijacked to the point where the machine is unusable or compromised?
 
Bzzt.

The problem with obscurity is that it also hinders the "good guys" from auditing your security.

Bad guys have more time and money to spend on this than the good guys do. Therefore, security needs to be geared towards efficient investments, and clear, published designs are efficient. Obscurity is inefficient, and without a doubt leads to lower security.

It doesn't at all. You can hire the good guys to scan your system if you want. The good guys don't do it for free unless you're already so large that you're beyond obscurity to begin with.

Obscurity is one of many valid layers of security. Look at OSXs 'stealth mode.' That is a form of obscurity by hiding that a machine even exists at a certain address. It's all about hiding yourself as a potential target, then lessening the potential attack surface area (turn off all unneeded services, blocking extranet traffic, etc...) and finally having plans in place for when you do get compromised.
 
Just to clarify for everybody, the crossover cable negates the functionality of ipfw because the target computer is accessing the internet via the wireless connection of the attackers computer.
This is wrong.

The rules of the context forbid use of wireless. Contest entries that rely on wireless vulnerabilities will only be conducted at a remote undisclosed location.

The contest organizers have gone to some lengths to avoid the possibility of eavesdroppers collecting the attack data and analyzing it to reveal how the attack is conducted, thus revealing essential clues to the vulnerability. Frankly, this seems to me to be the reason for using a crossover cable: it can't be eavesdropped on. Even routers, switches, or hubs could conceivably be compromised, so the simplest solution, a straight wire (aka crossover cable), is used in place of anything else.

The crossover cable is used primarily to connect the attacker to the target with no intervening attack or leakage points. This also means the attacker acts as the target's gateway to the internet (again, read the rules and look for "gateway"). This means that the attacker has the ability to mount a man-in-the-middle attack, if they wish. However, the judges will not click links, nor perform any other action other than running requested programs and performing specific actions (read the rules).


The target computer is exposed to the attacking computer. Essentially the target computers traffic is being passed through the attackers computer.

Those statements are true. Obvious, given the contest rules, but true.

I believe to make this type of network connection in OSX that the system detects the type of connection and bridges the security features to make it work assuming that this type of connection is the want of the user.

That sounds like nonsense to me. The target computer (Mac or otherwise) has no special knowledge of the crossover cable, except at the hardware level. This makes sense, because other than switching which wires to send or receive on, the crossover cable makes no difference: bits on the wire are still just bits on the wire.

If the target knows about the internet, it's because the attacker's computer is acting as the internet gateway for the target. In other words, the attacker is acting as DHCP server, or router, subnet gateway, or whatever the configured internet connection is. There is nothing in OS X (or any other OS) that can possibly know or detect whether its DHCP server or router is a compromised attacker acting as a man-in-the-middle, unless the attacking software contains a mistake and reveals this in some way.


This is why PWN2OWN is not real world relevant in relation to any OS, but even less relevant to systems running ipfw, such as Mac OSX, Linux, and BSD.

I was totally wrong in my explanation about the relationship between ipfw and crossover cable in previous posts, but the essential elements of what I was saying are true.

What are the essential elements you think are true?

I'm assuming you know Mac OS X hasn't had ipfw active by default for quite some time. Assuming it will be active for the contest is a leap of faith on your part.

It's unclear to me from the contest rules whether ipfw will be enabled or not, and if enabled, how it might be configured. I say this because despite being inactive by default in recent OS releases, there are third-party products that manage ipfw rules in a simplified way, and it would not be unreasonable for the defender to use one of those products.

In any case, ipfw has no special defenses against mitm attacks, so it's unclear what you expect it to defend against.
 
I tried to find the article that overviewed why a crossover cable mattered in relation to the results of PWN2OWN. I could not find it as it was posted soon after the event last year and now has been removed. After the feedback I have gotten here, I do believe I had to much faith in that article but it made sense to me at the time.

I have two questions.

Given the target computers data passed through the attackers computer to allow the execution of the injected code, did this configuration have a benefit over other types of local network connections such as connected via router, switch, or shared wireless in terms of the connections vulnerability? I think it would but now I am concerned.

Can you do a Man in the middle attack without a crossover cable and without a lot of user intervention? For example, on a network with a router/wireless.

This is from wikipedia for leopard but snow leopard is the same:

"Leopard ships with two firewall engines: the original BSD IPFW, which was present in earlier releases of Mac OS X, and the new Leopard Application Layer Firewall. Unlike IPFW, which intercepts and filters IP datagrams before the kernel performs significant processing, the Application Layer Firewall operates at the socket layer, bound to individual processes. The Application Layer Firewall can therefore make filtering decisions on a per-application basis. Of the two-firewall engines, only the Application Layer Firewall is fully exposed in the Leopard user interface. The new firewall offers less control over individual packet decisions (users can decide to allow or deny connections system wide or to individual applications, but must use IPFW to set fine-grained TCP/IP header level policies). It also makes several policy exceptions for system processes: neither mDNSResponder nor programs running with superuser privileges are filtered."

ipfw is not disabled. The default ruleset is still in place. There is just no GUI to configure it as most users found it difficult.

There is now an application firewall for user configuration. This is disabled by default.

This is the apple support page concerning the firewalls:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1810?viewlocale=en_US

I bring up ipfw because part of its default ruleset is filtering for the port the browser uses to prevent packets that could be executable from passing. (<- this is wrong, application firewalls, not packet filters, do this type of filtering but not very well; also, the default firewall starting with OS X Leopard is based on mandatory access controls).
 
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This thread is unreal

Can any of you read or are you all just trolls fencing with each other?

The talk is not about viruses, they are not even mentioned. Lots of other people are debating crossover cables which has nothing to do with this talk either.

Miller is describing how, by bombarding applications with arbitrary data, you might be able to make them crash. He wants us to believe that this gives him an insight into how to uncover and subsequently exploit flaws in those applications. I want some proof he can learn something useful from his 'technique', he hasn't got any such proof.

Think about it (though this might be a stretch for some contributors) I could show how to break down your door by using a massive hydraulic ram or by piling up large boulders against it, is this a practical means of forcing entry? Not in my view, no.
 
The result? Vista had DEP and ASLR and a lot of professional vulnerability researchers found that writing exploits in Vista was REALLY time consuming and difficult.
Yes, yet it doesn't seem too difficult and time consuming for malware to bypass Vista's (and 7's) protections. I think that ASLR (and DEP) are the only real things which are making it more secure against exploits, because as far as malware goes UAC and DEP are almost useless.

Apple seems to be taking their dear sweet time with ASLR.
Well if you consider their current condition, they're not really much behind in terms of security. I mean, Leopard has a little ASLR and Snow Leopard has full DEP and partial ASLR, now the only thing which Windows 7 has got more in terms of security is another half ASLR implementation. Considering that Windows has about 9 times as much market share as Mac OS X, I'd say they're doing a pretty good job at Apple.

My impression is that most security experts now agree that Windows 7 is significantly safer than OS X.

I guess that that half ASLR more must really help against exploits, yet it doesn't seem to be that effective against malware (which is the realistic threat anyway)
 
Miller is describing how, by bombarding applications with arbitrary data, you might be able to make them crash. He wants us to believe that this gives him an insight into how to uncover and subsequently exploit flaws in those applications. I want some proof he can learn something useful from his 'technique', he hasn't got any such proof.

Fuzzing is widely known in the testing world. It isn't new, either. There are even automated tools for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzz_testing

As with all Wikipedia articles, be sure to look at the references and external links at the end of the article.
 
20 holes is a dang small number. All this talk of viruses/ worms is like going back to the switch to intel and hearing the banter. If by some crazy flaw ONE worm/ virus pops up, you could bet apple either wouldnt let it be publicized or there would be a very prompt fix. Its always nice to see your favorite operating system made even more secure!
 
When the program or shell exits, nothing that's been installed will have "permanent" root access.

Just "temporary" root access. How comforting!
__________________
-as
Zero Population Growth - Have you thanked your gay friends, your gay colleagues and your gay relatives? Why not?
 
Given the target computers data passed through the attackers computer to allow the execution of the injected code, did this configuration have a benefit over other types of local network connections such as connected via router, switch, or shared wireless in terms of the connections vulnerability? I think it would but now I am concerned.
A benefit to whom, the target or the attacker?

Can you do a Man in the middle attack without a crossover cable and without a lot of user intervention? For example, on a network with a router/wireless.
It depends on the router and on the wireless network. It also depends on other factors, like where the mitm is attempting to insert itself. If you want to understand this, I'm afraid you'll have to educate yourself. There's no simple yes/no answer that applies in all cases.

ipfw is not disabled. The default ruleset is still in place. There is just no GUI to configure it as most users found it difficult.
I don't know any other way of saying this, but what you seem to believe is happening, it is not really happening.

If you check on a default Leopard or Snow Leopard install, you will find that ipfw is not running by default. You can check this yourself.

It is still possible to run ipfw (i.e. activate it, enable it) because its rules are still defined by default, but ipfw is not active, enabled, or running by default. In short, the ipfw rules are present, but ipfw is not enforcing them, nor is anything else. If some rule-set is present (as defined by some configurable data) but is not being acted upon or enforced by anything, I would call that disabled or inactive.


How to find if ipfw is active (i.e. running and enforcing its ruleset), and some sample outputs.

Terminal commands:
Code:
sudo ipfw list
Output on Tiger, with Firewall Off (Sharing prefpane):
Code:
65535 allow ip from any to any
Partial output on Tiger, with Firewall On
Code:
02000 allow ip from any to any via lo*
02010 deny ip from 127.0.0.0/8 to any in
02020 deny ip from any to 127.0.0.0/8 in
02030 deny ip from 224.0.0.0/3 to any in

Output on Leopard, with Application Firewall active:
Code:
65535 allow ip from any to any

Output on Snow Leopard, with Application Firewall active:
Code:
65535 allow ip from any to any

The command-line to enable ipfw is left as an exercise for the reader. Once enabled, the 'ipfw list' command will list the active rules. That's how you'll know it's active.
 
Fuzzing is widely known in the testing world. It isn't new, either. There are even automated tools for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzz_testing

As with all Wikipedia articles, be sure to look at the references and external links at the end of the article.
I am aware of the technique and of its many limitations and I stand by my question. Miller might e.g. show that it is possible to crash Preview by giving it random PDFs. That is unsurprising, what is interesting is any sort of exploit that undermines OSX. A denial of service attack against OSX applications might be at worst an irritant, it is not a zero day vulnerability in any meaningful sense of the phrase. Why is this guy anything other than a media whore?
 
I assume that on Apple OSX you never use "sudo" or give the root password when requested, since that's virtually the same thing.

Aiden, you will get asked by OSX for the administrator password if you try to install anything. UAC on Windows requires you to run at a low setting to get anything done. Your mindset seems to be abnormal preventing you from seeing reality.
 
Umm.....

I find it interesting that people consider it "condescending" when a Mac user brags about having this obvious a benefit to using the system!?

It's most certainly one of the better arguments for a Mac, and one of the motivators for businesses to start adopting them. (A typical Windows PC environment consisting of about 50 computers will cost a company at least $4,000-$5,000 per year for corporate anti-virus licenses.)

And ask yourself why 10 whole YEARS have gone by where Mac users can STILL say this is pretty much true!? If it's so darn tempting for someone to be the first to gum up a Mac with spyware or a nasty virus (for the notoriety of doing it first or whatever), why haven't we seen it happen in a whole decade now?

The fact is, Windows has always been based on a weaker "skeleton". You can throw enough corrupt data at ANY operating system and computer, and eventually flush out a few places where some of the code doesn't handle it well and creates a "security hole". But often, that sort of thing doesn't really translate into a practical piece of malware you can shove out there and have it auto-infect every user who stumbles past it. Windows gets compromised so often because they gave their Internet browser such capabilities as "Active-X", and allowed all of their Office applications to run Visual Basic code to "extend and enhance" their functionality, and used a system registry - meaning an "all the eggs in one basket" design for ALL the software on the machine AND the OS itself to rely on, to run properly.... The list goes on, but all these design decisions were very different than the way OS X approached things, and that helps keep OS X safer.


I dunno. Every time someone even says the word "virus" all the Mac fans jump out and say things like "Not for us! There are no viruses for the Mac!" (Myself included.) For the last 10 years, it's been the same smug, condescending battle cry. "No viruses! Not here! Not us!"

You don't think that the first guy to create an actual, self-replicating virus on OS X, the first guy to prove them all wrong, the first guy to stick it in everyone's face, wouldn't become as famous as Steve Jobs and Linus Torvalds themselves?

You don't think that somewhere out there is a hacker who wants to make a name for himself?

That's why I don't buy "security by obscurity".
 
I am aware of the technique and of its many limitations and I stand by my question. Miller might e.g. show that it is possible to crash Preview by giving it random PDFs. That is unsurprising, what is interesting is any sort of exploit that undermines OSX. ...

My understanding is that a document that can crash Preview shows a possible weakness in Preview. Normally, a corrupted document would just cause Preview to show a message telling you it couldn't display the document. A document that actually crashes Preview is doing probably doing something bad to the memory handling... and after that I have no idea, except isn't that what buffer overflows are? Something bad to the memory handling?

It's like having lock-pick, and unlimited time to try inserting it into every lock in an apartment building. Normally the locks are sealed, and you can't get the pick into the lock - but every once in awhile the pick goes into the lock, and gives you a chance to try to open the lock. Doesn't mean you will be able to lock, or even that there isn't another lock that will keep you out. It just means you have identified a lock you can get the pick into.
 
A benefit to whom, the target or the attacker?


It depends on the router and on the wireless network. It also depends on other factors, like where the mitm is attempting to insert itself. If you want to understand this, I'm afraid you'll have to educate yourself. There's no simple yes/no answer that applies in all cases.

I don't know any other way of saying this, but what you seem to believe is happening, it is not really happening.

If you check on a default Leopard or Snow Leopard install, you will find that ipfw is not running by default. You can check this yourself.

I meant is it a benefit to the attacker in terms of ease when comparing crossover to router/wireless. This really relates to my next question so no need to answer.

I did do some reading to answer the next question.

Crossover cable where the attacking computer is the "switch" is the optimal network config for such types of attack.

I could be wrong but from what I understand it is not possible with a router or secured wireless but it is with an unsecured wireless. Even this is fully dependent on the config of the router or secured wireless.

I am totally wrong about ipfw. I was confused by literature that stated that it was installed and running but did not state that it was running without any rules. Then when I read about the default rules elsewhere for when enabled, I attributed those to the default state of ipfw in Mac OSX.

Thank you for the information that made apparent my ignorance. LOL!
 
Wait a minute--this guy's a "security expert" and he describes Windows as being like in a house with bars on the windows? It's more like being in a house with bars on the windows, no front or rear doors, the toothless watchdog's been on Prozac for the last 12 years, so he's pretty mellow and there's a big sign on the dining room table that says, "Welcome burglars! Please don't forget the jewelry. It's wrapped in aluminum foil and in the cardboard box marked, "TV Dinners" in the freezer."
 
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