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Reselling Apple Products on Launch Day: "This whole game is over"
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"Morals" in this case aren't even a factor. Don't get me started about what "should" be in this country, especially regarding the law.
At the end of the day, this is a LUXURY product being re-sold to people who can pay the "tax" to have their fix now. If the "average joes" NEED this luxury product so badly, they can order online within the first few hours of the product's release (as I did), or walk into Apple or Best Buy on launch day and pay only state tax instead of scalper tax (which is also being grossly misused IMHO). If these average joe's don't need it bad enough to buy it on day one, what's the harm in waiting 2 weeks to pay retail again once they sell out?
I'd say tax fraud, causes for economic collapse, mis-use of social services, or more applicably the WORKER CONDITIONS for the people who MAKE the iPad is more immoral than a few people who were able to circumvent the "2 per person" policy at Apple.com!
At the end of the day, this is a LUXURY product being re-sold to people who can pay the "tax" to have their fix now. If the "average joes" NEED this luxury product so badly, they can order online within the first few hours of the product's release (as I did), or walk into Apple or Best Buy on launch day and pay only state tax instead of scalper tax (which is also being grossly misused IMHO). If these average joe's don't need it bad enough to buy it on day one, what's the harm in waiting 2 weeks to pay retail again once they sell out?
I'd say tax fraud, causes for economic collapse, mis-use of social services, or more applicably the WORKER CONDITIONS for the people who MAKE the iPad is more immoral than a few people who were able to circumvent the "2 per person" policy at Apple.com!
To me this is the same as people scalping concert tickets. It's the same whether it's being done with iPads, Tickle-Me-Elmos, PS3s, Lady GaGa tickets, or anything else.
It's a sad, opportunistic practice that cheats people.
I know some people like to shout things like "free market" and "capitalism". And they're right, this is an example of both. But it's the worst example of both. There's nothing noble about ripping people off. I don't feel that these people are providing a service.
It's a sad, opportunistic practice that cheats people.
I know some people like to shout things like "free market" and "capitalism". And they're right, this is an example of both. But it's the worst example of both. There's nothing noble about ripping people off. I don't feel that these people are providing a service.
competively doesnt cut it.... i think you get my point....we have less to complain in resellers and more to complain IF WE do at all about the seller "apple"
also im not defending the resellers.... but just trying to be honest with myself..... everyone else is trying to make a living. while apple can have what 1 billion or 100 million of cash? extra and we defend them.... makes no sense guys...
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are you talking about apple ripping people off or the resellers??? if someone wants to buy a ipad from me for 100 more than i paid or 200 more... i would sale it... and i think you would as well....
No one is forcing you to buy an iPad either, and the purchasing and resale of an iPad in a market that doesn't normally offer (or doesn't offer it as quickly) that device doesn't affect the price of an iPad from Apple.
They were satisfying demand for a device that was not readily available, and people were willing to pay higher prices for it. It's not like whoever purchases marked-up iPads doesn't know cheaper version will be available. They are paying to have it sooner.
I'd say bottled water is an appropriate analogy. Apple is the tap selling "water" at a relatively fixed price. These resellers are, in essence, bottling it and selling it at a higher price. People are willing to buy it at that higher price, although they also know the same product is or will be available at a lower price.
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Cheats people? Really? And the distinction must be made between different types of products. You can't lump everything into one category and make a blanket statement. With concert tickets, there is an absolute limit, meaning the stadium may only fill 10,000 people. These tickets also have an expiration date. After a certain date, it's impossible to get them. iPads, not so much. iPads have an indefinite supply as long as Apple keeps producing them and they don't have an expiration date.
So say someone didn't get one on launch day because they didn't get up early enough and the Apple store ran out. They can choose to check out resellers or buy from a scalper or wait a short amount of time (with this launch they didn't even have to wait a day!). If they feel that they MUST have the iPad on the first day of commercial release, well then that's where scalpers make their money. Apple's lack of ability to efficiently use their distribution chain and correctly anticipate demand is at fault.
Sorry to say, but nothing ever works the exact way that it's supposed to in the real world as compared to in theory. There is no true capitalist society or free market. In fact, you would do well to look at how businesses exploit consumers and laws to their benefit on a much larger scale than what you claim scalpers do.
Isn't the best of ways of making money. My local Tesco's shop in East London still has them in stock, it seems.
You're OK with getting ripped off by Apple (or retailers like best buy), but if anyone else tries to get in on the profit action its over the line.
"Resellers" sell the products for much higher prices than they cost through Apple. So yes, it is "over the line".
Still don't see the analogy. Tap water is a substitute for bottled water, but tap water is never unavailable. People are opting for what they perceive (wrongly, in most cases) is a higher quality product.
There is no substitute for an iPad, and people who buy black market iPads aren't doing it because they perceive the black market product as better. They're doing it because the free market has been pillaged.
It seems extremely odd to justify the hoarding of iPads by resellers by using water as an analogy. The equivalent analogy would be saying it's perfectly okay for someone to go cut off the community's supply of tap water and then sell it back to the community in bottles at 2000% mark-up. That's what you're saying is capitalism.
The reason Apple staggers market rollouts is so they can better meet demand. Apple's strategy is to avoid the very situation that resellers create--scalping. Because supply was so incredibly far below demand, they were unable to succeed in segregating the markets sufficiently to prevent this kind of exploitation. Until now, anyway.
Well, that's not at all what the analogy implies, and, frankly, some might argue that bottled water companies are hoarding supply by purchasing drilling rights in developing countries and in the States, but that's another issue. Anyway, these resellers aren't shutting off the supply, so your point is moot.
Scalping doesn't apply here, since it usually refers to someone purchasing a finite (i.e. a set amount) of tickets. The free market hasn't been "pillaged" at all. And you're implying that people gain some satisfaction from buying an overpriced good, to do what?, stick it to the man? They're paying a higher price to get the product sooner. What's wrong with that?
You've also ignored my point that these resellers are not distorting the price of these devices, so the market is secure, and are you really going to argue that some Chinese resellers are distorting a market developed and operated by the largest companies in the world?
A more accurate ticket analogy would be if a concert produced tickets, and people bought the first batch at a higher price in a location where those tickets weren't normally available, knowing those tickets would be available later at a lower price. And if the concert venue never stopped producing tickets.
I don't understand the vitriol these resellers have garnered. If you want an iPad so badly the first week, go stand in line (they're your market competition, after all). Or you can wait two or three weeks
The MacBook Air is an exception. I don't disagree that MacBook Pros are overpriced.
Whether it's concert tickets or iPads, if a store is sold out because some opportunist bought a ton and is now selling them at a higher price, it sucks. But go ahead, blame Apple. And those awful markup concert ticket vendors and scalpers who buy up huge amounts of tickets and then sell them to you at a ridiculous price, you think they're doing you a favor?
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Well I'm not talking about some dude on the street with an extra iPad. I'm talking about the people who make it a full size business operation, and buy out massive quantities from stores. For example, ticket vendors buy out a huge number of tickets for a show, which is why a concert venue box office will sell out in seconds. Then you have no choice but to buy tickets from a nasty ticket vendor like TicketMaster... or some schmuck with an entire van full of iPads.
They're doing nothing illegal, but they're still *******s.
That's called "my opinion".
I am very, very happy Apple has managed to defeat these roaches
I guess they will pop up again should Apple release a product where they simply can't make enough. But for now, a combination of making lots of product (3M in 4 days... that's 9 iPads per second!!), of offering the thing in 10 markets on launch and 24 the week after, and in keeping the wait for online orders at 1-2 weeks has made this whole sore topic history.Apple has implemented many secondary measures - why would I pay a scalper when I can order online and get it in 1 - 2 weeks? or 3 weeks if I am in one of the 24 countries for the secondary rollout - but their primary weapon is cranking out lots and lots of devices.
They game the system badly. It's not benign. They would corner the market by flooding the stores with a ridiculous number of people masquerading as end users, and when they had damn near every item, would then re-sell right in front of the storessometime right inside themor in their own stores at a high markup. To score as many as possible, they jump lines repeatedly to crowd out and beat end users to getting the most prized models. They camp out CONSTANTLY, are un-tidy and ruin the store ambience and the purchase experience for actual users. They operate as a business, while playing at being consumers, which is disingenuous. There's also clear money laundering involved as the buyers are doing so at the behest of shady financiers who pay them a little something for waiting in line and delivering the items, which are re-sold, thus laundering the money into an item that generates clean cash.
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This was his first launch all to himself, and it's pretty certain that he leveraged every chit and IOU to get the ducks in a row to blow the game up for these clowns.
One thing...
When you manufacture to meet reasonable demand that's one thing. When a dedicated, tremendous group of scalpers converges with one idea in mindto buy you out quickly and entirely, scalpers can constrain supply. Especially if they opt to NOT leave the store, stay for hours on end, and whine about being unfairly targeted when called on their over-the-top system-gaming. They are highly organized, incentivized and pretty ruthless.
When you manufacture to meet reasonable demand that's one thing. When a dedicated, tremendous group of scalpers converges with one idea in mindto buy you out quickly and entirely, scalpers can constrain supply. Especially if they opt to NOT leave the store, stay for hours on end, and whine about being unfairly targeted when called on their over-the-top system-gaming. They are highly organized, incentivized and pretty ruthless.
Overpriced relative to what?
Cheap, BTO desktops which break down after a year, and don't come with 27' hi-res displays?
Cheap netbooks running atom processors sans SSDs?
You get what you pay for, and it remains true even in Apple's case. Name any other company which has integrated all its products so tightly together?
Before you start claiming that Mac build quality is better than other computers such as a MacBook compared to a HP laptop, not a netbook, remember the build quality issues that have occurred with nearly every plastic MB built. I have a 2010 white MB sitting here with cracks around the hinges. At the same time, I've owned countless HP laptops that lasted for years and never developed any cracks. There are also issues with iPhones, iPads, MacBook Airs and iMacs.
I still like Macs because the OS runs allot better for me than what I had experienced with computers running Windows.
JUST REMember this... you ALWAYS have a choice...
We always have a choice of whether to buy or not, but if the opportunists wipe the store or the box office clean, we don't always have a choice of where to buy. Concert tickets are probably the best example.
Come on, how can anyone stick up for TicketMaster?
So Apple was manufacturing and distributing to meet reasonable demand in all it's previous launches and this time around it manufactured and distributed iPads excessively?
I seem to recall the wait time for a 4S to be unreasonably long (a month? Correct me if I'm wrong). But there should be no way for scalpers to buy up enough stock that there would be shortages for an entire month. They don't have the manpower or capital to do that, if Apple was manufacturing and distributing according to "reasonable demand".
Consumers do not have an inherent right to have access to an iPad on its first day of launch. Scalpers are therefore not constraining supply because really, who can't wait a couple days to a week to get an iPad? And even if people felt they were entitled to have one on the first day, they could have gotten up earlier, researched all the places offering iPads (like Wal-Mart this time) or pre-ordered.
In large population centers (i.e. New York), there were hundreds of scalpers at each store who camped out every night (in total, equalling thousands) waiting for the doors to open to nab multiple iPads and iPhones. Regular customers were NOT camping out after day one. SCALPERS would. This was happening up and down the eastern seaboard. Jersey to Miami. This was unreasonable demand as each store was out of walk-in sale items by noon because of these exceptionally greedy people. THAT is unreasonable demand. And the fruit company couldn't do anything about it because when they tried, cash buyers (you could initially pay only with credit so the number of purchases could be tracked) complained of being discriminated against. Then, when it was apparent that large homogeneous groups were mobbing the store en masse and Apple sought to curtail that, those groups complained to local legislators (who take campaign funds from the same shady businessmen behind the resellers) who accused Apple of racial bias publicly. Once that happened and Apple backed down, all bets were off and the scalpers had pretty much free rein.
If 200 people in the same well-organized mob show up every morning before you open your doors, are unruly and covetous of their spots to the point where they crowd out everyone else, hold spaces for countless others and then buy two each of an item (even going so far as having a spotter out during the night watching a freight loading bay for the size of boxes coming in to alert the cavalry that the product is in), that's 400 pieces right there. And at big stores, that's enough to lat much of a regular day with maybe a run-out at end of day. Again, reasonable demand. Was Apple supposed to manufacture to meet the demand of greedy, dollar-chasing fanatics AND excited end-users? You might say, yesbut that also means turning the keys to the asylum over to the crazies, or letting a spastic tail wag the dog. When the new CEO took over, he did something different with an out-of-control scalper market in China. He said 'No. You can't have it. Not like this. and surprisingly cancelled the launch and suspended ALL sales where these people were out of control. As he's a supply chain specialist, he called in every favor, pressured the Chinese govt. to tweak some laws just enough (Where the vast majority of the scalping was centered), beefed up production and did simultaneous releases of large amounts of product in certain markets to where they wrecked that parasitic underground market. And those are good things for real users who want the real Apple in-store experience, not the silly, greed-fueled debacle these people thrive on.
Fact is, Apple got the supply chain right this time, if the speculators got burned, or just broke even, then it's a good thing, as stated, more for ordinary folks to walk in and purchase what they want without delay or compromise.
It remains to be seen if this will apply to the iPhone5 MBP and forthcoming updates to the iMac and the Air.
I for one hope it does.
It remains to be seen if this will apply to the iPhone5 MBP and forthcoming updates to the iMac and the Air.
I for one hope it does.
Sorry, but you're going to have to cite this because it the scenario seems over the top to me.
Assuming you're right, I think in this case, scalping should only be considered immoral if they are able to corner the market and take advantage of inflexible demand/supply. If scalpers can deplete supplies for an unreasonable amount of time (say 2 months straight), then I would agree that its unethical. But I think your example of huge scalping rings is more of an exception rather than what's common in the United States. Individual scalpers do not have anywhere close to that kind of power to limit supply for so long. Heck, even groups of scalpers don't. The exception is the huge scalping rings you're describing. And I think a distinction should be made between these different kinds of scalping.
Saying that scalpers receive all of the stock in all or even a majority of stores around the country is an unreasonable assumption IMO. There will always be a considerable amount of people buying for their own consumption that get what they want, except in a few situations. The rest of the people who may have missed out either due to scalpers or because they simply didn't line up early enough and would've missed out with or without scalpers can wait a couple weeks, order online, or buy from a reseller.
If people don't have the patience to wait and must have the product on the first day, then obviously, in this case, their perceived value of obtaining the product on launch day is worth the additional cost of the iPad from scalpers.
You can't call scalpers greedy without calling pretty much every for-profit business greedy as well. Because what they all have in common is that they're looking for profits.
And whatever you attribute to Apple's success this time around, the point is that Apple was obviously failing to take the correct course of action beforehand.