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Discussion in 'MacBook Air' started by Airforcekid, Apr 20, 2009.
I bet rev B SSD 1,700 area HHD aroound 1,400 REV A may go down another $100 bucks.
Who cares live for today!
Apple is essentially "dumping" the rev As. They are problematic and inferior Macs. Quite frankly, they are the worst Apple product of the last five years. The original MBA damaged Apple's reputation because they couldn't do what people expected of a Mac. The original MBA prices were as high as $3099 and Apple is dumping those for $1299.
Make no mistake about this, the rev B MBA is a true Mac. While the original MBA was a Mac Lite. The rev B is capable of performing like a Mac without overheating, core shutdown, and lockups when playing a standard definition video. It doesn't require undervolting via Cool Book. A real Penryn CPU, Nvidia GPU, 1066 MHz RAM, and SATA! Everything a Mac is/does but in the tiny Air case.
Since the rev B is a solid Mac, I don't ever see the massive discounts as seen with the extremely problematic, less than Mac like original MBA. Everyone wants a rev B MBA. Some settle for a rev A but that is only because the cost is so very low. If most understood the true nature of the original and the component changes in the rev B, they would see the added value of the rev B even at the higher prices.
Will not see the rev Bs for $999 to $1299 - not even close. Current refurb prices at $1549 to $2149 are very fair and great discounts for the amazing rev B MBA.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your MBA RevA. You seem to take every opportunity to tell everyone what junk all revA MBA's are but I've never seen any facts from you or anyone else to back that opinion up.
To the contrary, my experience, the many happy revA MBA owners I know personally, and the user community I see on the forums I frequent would seem to make claims of a failed product line seem like rubbish.
I don't doubt that some percentage of these products had issues or that they were not suitable for everyone. I don't doubt that the revB is better/faster/etc (as are most new models). But lets use some reasonable extrapolation rather than painting the whole user community with the experience of a segment that is definitely less than the whole community.
To that end...
How are you measuring that the revA MBA "is the worst Apple product in 5 years"? Product sales numbers? Satisfaction surveys? Financial statements?
How much did the revA MBA hurt Apple's reputation? I heard spple continued to maintain the highest level of customer satisfaction?
Please share the source of your "facts" with us
I disagree, I had a B and dumped it because of lines, I went back to a A and have no regrets, Maybe because I only use it for mail and surfing for the price you cant beat it
Well said. Scottsdale has an extremely negative perception about the Rev.A's when he hasn't actually used one in a while. Use one now. There aren't any core shutdowns or lockups, you don't need to use coolbook, and you performs most tasks, in many ways, the same as the Rev.B.
The nVidia GPU is the only significant advantage of the Rev.B. DDR3 ram is completely irrelevant as benchmarks have proved. There is no real word difference. A "real Penryn CPU"? Ok, so the Rev.A has a "real Merom CPU". Get the SSD Rev.A and it'll handle basic tasks really well due to the fact that SSD's are far faster than the 4200RPM drive in the Rev.B. Sure, "benchmarks" will say the Rev.B HDD version is faster than the Rev.A SSD, but in day-to-day tasks the only noticeable advantage will be present in the graphics.
It has nothing to do with ONE bad experience. I personally know 18 people who bought the original MBA and were extremely disappointed. In less than one year, those 18 people and myself sold or returned their original MBAs. That is a huge number. In fact, I know just one person who stills his original MBA a year later. The problems are not just with its poor video playback, but with all aspects of how limited the computer is. Doing common tasks any Mac user would expect, the original MBA disappoints time and time again. Surely anyone here could remember many stories of the original MBA problems.
Overheating is a part of it, because it has a 20W Merom CPU that is problematic at best. Sure, software rewrites have helped, but most have to use Cool Book to get decent performance without overheating. The CPU is not the only problem, paired with Intel 3100 graphics, the original MBA's components generate too much heat for the tiny case.
I think anyone could assume from reading here or checking Google, that Apple had MANY problems witht the original MBA. From my own experience, and that of my friends and colleagues, I can only assume that the vast majority of original MBA buyers were extremely disappointed at best. The best way to understand Apple's problems with the original MBA is looking at the deep drastic cuts from $3099 to $1299 with the original MBA. In addition, anyone could understand that Apple took drastic measures and changed every major component in the rev B MBA. I have never seen such amazing transformations from one revision to the next, not even from Apple. Considering the original, the rev B MBA is absolutely a stunning performer at every level.
But this topic goes further and the point of this thread is not to make anyone feel anything negative about the original MBA. I realize with Cool Book, reapplication of thermal paste, and software rewrites, the original MBA as a refurbished unit has become much more bearable. But, does that mean that the value is greater? Does that mean that anyone that wants an Apple product should have to learn undervolting principles? Apple is the king of "it just works." But that is NOT the case of the original MBA, and that is the point.
The reason why Apple dropped the price so drastically is because it was a terrible disaster. The proof is in the price drops and the changes to the rev B.
However, the real point of this thread is to discover if rev B MBA prices would drop to the level the original MBA dropped to when the rev B was introduced. The big difference here is the rev B MBA is an absolute performer. It is everything a Mac user could want or expect. It just works. No Cool Book required to play a video. The component makeup is extremely efficient together. It makes owning a rev B MBA really fun. For those reasons, when the rev C MBA is introduced, the rev B MBA will hold its pricing much much better than the original did.
At the same time, I would expect Apple to further discount the original MBA if it were to introduce a rev C MBA before the complete inventory is depleted. It is quite amazing that after selling the rev A MBA for five months at drastically reduced prices that Apple has any rev A MBAs left to sell. And that really shows how poor the original MBA was.
But, a lot of people that bought the refurbished MBA did install Cool Book, have reapplied thermal paste, and did benefit from software rewrites. Unfortunately though, this is a lot more work for the average Apple Mac buyer. This is ridiculous.
I don't know when to expect a rev C MBA, but I seriously doubt Apple would need to drastically reduce the prices to rid itself of the rev B MBAs. Everyone wants a rev B MBA. Many though cannot find the reason to justify the extra costs of the rev B over the very inexpensive original refurbished MBA. Those people are the ones willing to learn undervolting principles with Cool Book. They are willing to crack open the MBA and remove and reapply thermal paste. But that is not what ANY Mac buyer should have to do to make their Mac work.
If you are a refurbished original MBA buyer, and your original MBA has served you well, great. Perfect for you. But for most Mac buyers the rev A MBA is just too problematic.
One positive for the original MBA, once Apple finally stops selling the original MBA, the price should rise on the secondary markets. Apple has absolutely killed the resale value for all original MBA buyers (before the refurbs). I think Apple has backstabbed its first to adopt MBA buyers. First for dropping the original MBA price so steeply. Second by not recalling ALL original MBAs and replacing them with rev B MBAs.
Bottom line, the rev B MBA is the MBA we were all promised to begin with. Apple/Jobs didn't warn all of us original MBA buyers of the serious limitations and problems of the original MBA. Sure, first to adopt new technologies pay more, but the problem with the original was it was never the machine Apple promised us original MBA buyers. We were promised Mac performance and it was branded with the Apple logo, surely us original MBA buyers will recognize that the original MBA was extremely troublesome and did not perform as we all expect a Mac to perform. It didn't just work. In fact, for many of us it didn't work at all. Overheating, core shutdown, and lock ups were not limited to video playback. My original MBA was unusable for anything except email and word processing. Doing anything else was unbearable. Not what one expects of a Mac.
Bottom line, the rev B MBA will hold its value extremely well when the rev C MBA is introduced. Apple will not need to "dump" the rev B MBAs.
If C comes out B will fall like a rock in price.
Wow. I appreciate your knowledge and opinion Scottsdale. And I agree with you to an extent. I have both Rev A, and B.
I will say Rev B 128/SSD is phenomenal in performance and speed. But I would hardly say Rev A is a piece of ish.
I would not have bought ANOTHER MBA, if I thought the Rev A was horrible. I really enjoyed my Rev. A. And I am sure THOUSANDS of others are enjoying their Rev As.
I use a Rev. A currently. I'm on it right now. CPU's at a stable 45-50 deg C in a 72 deg F controlled temperature room. I have no core shutdowns even using this system in a variable 100 deg F room and having both cores maxed out. Sure the system gets extremely hot and fans screaming but these newer Rev. A are A LOT better then the ones that was released earlier.
This is my 3rd MBA, all of them Rev. A models. While the first two had major overheating/core shutdown issues. This one does not. I do not even use coolbook on this thing and it still flys.
The Rev. B is a lot faster than the Rev. A, but its not horrible. For light tasks such as word processing, email, web browsing, this Rev. A is perfect.
The RevA estimates I've seen indicate sales in the 100,000 range per quarter. Not stellar but the MBA is a niche product and other premium ultra-portables share similar limited sales numbers compared to their mainstream counterparts.
The economy will also hurt products in the premium range (as Apple's overall PC sales indicates).
But the MBA is still a successful product offering most an excellent user experience and I believe it will continue to evolve in the Apple lineup.
I love my revA MBA as my everyday primary computer. I choose it in favor of my iMac, my MBP, and my current generation MB. But it has capacity limits that prevent it from becoming my "only" computer (as does the revB).
I look forward to a revC with a bit of a processor bump, a bit more memory (3gb would be ok, 4gb better) and another doubling of SSD space to 256gb. Depending on how SnowLeopard works out I might be tempted by less, but thats less likely unless the wait is very long.
As to price drops, the HD version of the revA dropped as I would expect. The SSD version of the revA was pretty bleeding edge so price changes in that technology were much more dramatic.
Going forward as new versions are released I would expect similar things with modist drops in old HD models and more significant drops in old SSD models due to faster changing technology prices.
Because the 2.13 GHz was released at the end of last month, I would expect an update fairly soon, although there are reasons why it could come later (supply, some sort of design change, updating with the rest of the notebook line).
I personally wonder if there is a 256 GB SSD available which I think is the natural progression for the rev C MBA. I have noticed there are none available on the market in the 1.8" size. As much as I need and want a 256 GB SSD in the next MBA, maybe it's not yet doable in that size???
I think everything else is probably a go... RAM should be easy. CPU is ready. Nvidia has been a workhorse GPU. Glass trackpad seems like a simple possibility.
Maybe the new battery technology as used in 17" MBP? Could that hold it up? Doubtful!
How about displays without lines? The displays in the rev B have been problematic. Maybe this is the holdup?
And, what if Apple feels the need to win the thin war with the MBA vs Adamo! Would we lose power and performance so the MBA would be thinner than Adamo? I sure would hate to see a change in the form factor.
Or, maybe Apple just feels the rev B MBA is really great and it has plans to hold off until later in the year before upgrading.
So you know 18 people who bought a Rev A. All 18 people sold or returned it yet you still know one person who still has one. Where did the extra Rev A come from?
Unless this is some riddle I can't figure out or you're making up numbers out of thin air.
Yes, many people (including myself) had problems initially with Rev A, but you are deluded if you think ALL of them have issues. If they were all faulty, there would be much more damage to Apple's reputation and much more mainstream media coverage.
Besides, the problems are all fixed now. No one getting a refurb will experience core shutdown. I have a Rev A and a Rev B. There is not a lot of noticeable difference in speed for everyday tasks.
I disagree. Rev A had some problems but the main reason it is at $999 is because MBAs aren't selling. Not rev As and not rev Bs. The MBA is currently the worst selling mac, even less than the Mac Pros.
Apple might even slash the price on new rev Bs. And don't be so sure there will be a Rev C. I wouldn't be surprised if they discontinued it.
Unfortunately, the numbers are true. I work with consultants, college professors and clients who are in various sectors. The MBA was originally thought of as a dream computer. I know of only seven that have purchased the rev B MBA. I know several switched to the MBP, and I know of a few that were so upset about their original MBA that they switched to the dark side.
So all of the problems are fixed??? Since when? As far as I know, people who buy the orig MBA refurbished have to install Cool Book at a minimum.
As far as the rev C MBA, I agree it could never happen. If Apple drops it, the original is the one that ruined its reputation. And from what I have seen, I think Apple is selling a lot fewer rev B MBAs as people who originally bought the MBA were shafted.
I think expectations go down significantly when there are massive price drops. Instead of expecting MB performance from a rev B MBA, people expect inferior performance since they are paying far less for the heavily discounted rev A MBA.
Most of us here are the more die hard Apple/Mac fans. We are willing to go to extra lengths for performance. Many refurb original MBA buyers are willing to deal with Cool Book and deal with reapplying thermal paste. But the average Mac buyer is not willing to go to those lengths - they just expect their Mac to work. The rev A when released did not perform well and was extremely problematic. It still to this day requires undervolting with Cool Book for decent performance. But that just is not the norm.
I understand the original can work for a lot of smart and capable people who are willing to do the extra things like install Cool Book. But the vast majority of buyers are not willing to do the extras and just want their MBA to work. So the rev B is absolutely a better choice for the average buyer. That doesn't mean the original MBA cannot work as a light duty or secondary computer for those capable and willing.
If you can make an original MBA do everything you need, great for you. I am going to stick with the MBA in rev B or C form.
I have been struggling with the idea of replacing my stolen rev B 1.86 w/SSD, but I am hopeful for a rev C very soon. It is possible, but I think September is more realistic. I am having a hard time pulling the trigger, because the rev B is five months old. Was an easy decision when bought rev B in January. Since my children's MBP was also taken, I am considering a MBP uni refurb and give to them once rev C MBA is announced.
I would love to see the rev B at $1400, but I just don't think it would happen.
Uh, just a hunch but did it ever occur to you Carl that a customer may have been using that MBA and shut it down just before you walked in? Customers abuse demos all day and the store can't just keep replacing demos for loose lids and such. You're reading way too much into this.
No, you're missing my point. There is an inconsistency with your first statement. If you knew 18 people with a rev A, 18 of them sold/returned it, yet you know one more who kept it, there is an extra person there. You would have to have known 19 people with a rev A.
Let me clarify. I know 19 other people, plus myself as an original MBA buyer. That is 20 total, including me that purchased the original MBA. I know of ONE person who still has the original MBA, NOW. NONE of those people bought the original MBA as a refurbished unit. They all, including me, bought the original MBA within four months of its release.
Want me to clarify further. Including me, 8 had purchased a rev B MBA (mine has since been stolen). I think five to seven have replaced the originals with MBPs and have abandoned the thought of an ultra portable as it's just not worth it. I did not track that as have kept up on MBA primarily. A few others have went to the PC.
To me, the numbers I have seen have been amazing and stunning as this is an Apple product. At the same time, I know at least 40 people who have purchased the iPhone and love it. At client offices, I must know of several hundreds of Mac users extremely happy with Mac Pros, MacBook Pros, Apple Cinema Displays, and etc. Across NO OTHER Apple product have I seen resentment and frustration with Apple products. And this is surprising to me. Shocking really that the original MBA has been so frustrating for so many. Everyone that I know who bought the original MBA has a story or two about how frustrating their MBA was. These are NOT typical Mac/Apple complainers. It is this wide assortment of people that have encouraged me to speak out against the original MBA.
It took me a lot of looking at and trying out other people's rev B MBAs to finally buy one. I had loved the original MBA's form factor, weight, display, and as a part time writer, I thought it would be an excellent machine for me. However, I couldn't do the "other" things on my original MBA that most Mac users would expect from their Mac. At the time of my ownership of the original MBA, I tried it for two weeks then it spent six months in a drawer before I finally sold it the week or so before the new MBA was announced.
While initially I didn't speak out against the original MBA, it has been a bitter or sore subject for me as I feel Apple really wronged a lot of ORIGINAL MBA buyers who paid a lot of money for a terribly inferior Mac. I know a lot of people who feel that way about the original MBA, and that has made me feel the need to speak out. I think the biggest point in being frustrated with Apple is that Apple fixed the MBA with the second version of the MBA. And I feel Apple should have somehow made the deal right with all of the original MBA buyers. The point is this isn't ONE frustrated buyer, I feel the need to represent all of the people I know who bought the original MBA.
Now, people are paying much less money for the original MBA, and Apple has HELPED the original MBA by taking care of some quality control issues like thermal paste and more importantly by writing better software to make it easier for the original MBA to do "normal" tasks.
But still the bigger problem is that if someone wants to truly use their MBA without the major headaches, they have to install Cool Book. That is ridiculous. The average Mac user is NOT going to do that. I don't know anyone personally that has bought the original MBA as a refurbished unit and installed Cool Book, but I have read about it all over the forums.
From my position, if someone asks about rev A or rev B, I always recommend rev B. If someone says they are buying rev A, I advise them to look at all problems to ensure it will be acceptable for them. If someone has already bought the original MBA, and is not complaining but asking for assistance, I always tell them about Cool Book and never challenge their decision to buy the original. However, if someone says they have been really disappointed by the original MBA, I tell them my feelings and advise they consider the upgrade.
I have wasted a lot of time with the best intentions of making sure others don't waste money on an original MBA if the rev B MBA is best for them. I think the vast majority are better off with the rev B MBA.
At the same time, I realize there are a lot of people here on Mac Rumors that are not the majority of Mac buyers who know more about computers and are more capable of undervolting the MBA, reapplying thermal paste, and etc. It is obvious that there have recently been a lot of people happy with the original MBA as a refurbished unit. Those who are paying $999 seem to be extremely happy. One would have to admit that satisfaction is directly related to the cost, and the "other" solutions like Cool Book have made the original MBA a MUCH BETTER purchase. But the people here are NOT the majority of Apple "It just works" buyers.
There is a lot of "legal copy" that should be warned of with the original MBA, and that is all I have tried to point out.
Perhaps I would be better off just never pointing out to anyone all of the problems with the original. I have been grilled because of my encouragement for the rev B MBA. I have been called names and told I was a bad person and etc etc. At the same time, I do feel that people should speak out when they feel they have information that is beneficial for others.
The MBA ment as a second computer yes its expensive and weaker compared to other macs but your not forced to buy it. Apple released it for a college student taking notes. A family computer to take on vacation and use around the house along the iMac or PC. Or an elderly couple that just wants to email and check ebay. If you want more your going to be very disappointed or if you want more dont expect it to perform like a new mac
I strongly disagree. The MBA doesn't need to be "second" to any other computer, at least not if you are discussing the rev B MBA. I used mine as a primary Mac for three months. It was WONDERFUL. Paired with a 24" LED ACD, it feels like an iMac or Mac Pro. Sure, you have to be able to do things wirelessly and without FireWire, but the rev B MBA is VERY CAPABLE.
Actually, the rev B MBA is serving a role as a premium computer used by executives, professors, consultants, and etc who want premium yet don't require max horse power as far as CPU processing and memory. No, not going to work as a graphics Pros primary computer, nor to be treated as a Mac Pro, but for the average Mac user, the MBA is great. Most don't use or need the extra power of CPUs or 4 GB RAM, and for all of those the MBA is great.
I know an engineer who quit using his Mac Pro with dual 30s as his primary Mac and loves his MBA for the majority (not all) of his work. I know many consultants and college professors using the MBA. I know business managers, executives, and tons of grad students using the MBA. The MBA is really a great Mac. In the rev B form, it is essentially the same computer as the MB with better display and super portable less the optical drive.
No reason to think the MBA needs to be a secondary computer, at least not in the rev B form.
I still do NOT think the rev B MBA will see huge price drops like the original MBA did by Apple. I think I said this earlier in the thread, but I expect the original MBA to rise in value as soon as Apple stops selling them. The market has not ruined the pricing on the original MBAs as badly as Apple has.
Wow, I left this forum for a month and Scottsdale is STILL posting the same nonsense? If someone looks at the stats of an MBA (either rev) and expects a powerhouse computer, they are clearly buying the wrong computer. Would you buy a Dell Mini 9 and complain that it's not a Dell?
I'm a techie by trade and my MBA Rev. A is on and used for 12+ hours every day. I've never had a single core shutdown, the only time the fans even start to spin up loudly is when I'm doing lengthy Webex meetings with clients. Would I use it for Photoshop or heavy video editing? Of course not, because I know it has its limits. I also wouldn't buy a Honda Civic and expect it to tow a yacht.
That said, I did buy a Rev. B with SSD because I wanted something a little faster...that's just what geeks do. The screen had the lines problem and I shipped it back. The Rev. A doesn't compete w/my Macbook Pro in terms of speed, but it's great for travel and it allows me to do my job.