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So what do you call the chip that drives a USB-C port, handles all the switching between the various alt modes and power supply modes etc? You could sort of say it "controls" the USB port?
It highly depends what protocol that chip is using. In case of Apple it is either a USB controller (MacBook) or a Thunderbolt controller (MacBook Pro, iMac). The chips in the connector which you seem to be referring to are part of the connector and thus part of the standard. Whatever is using the connector needs to implement it (the aforementioned USB or Thunderbolt controller).

And, no, USB C is not "only a connector and a cable" - it is a connector, a cable and a set of specifications that define how that connector and cable should behave.
The set of specifications is the definition of what a standard is. In this case the standard is about a connector and a cable.

You don't have a point - you have a nonsense "Chewbacca defense" red herring that has nothing to do with the argument, which is that a 60W USB-C cable can't supply 85W to a MacBook Pro that needs it - and the only separate 85W capable cable on the Apple store is a "charge cable" that won't carry high speed data.
Ah so you don't have an answer to the question why this is a problem since the right charger and cable come with the notebook. Think up of actual real world issues instead of making up all these silly things and counter things technically instead of personally.

Well then, I suggest you tell that to Apple, Belkin etc. who are selling them as different things.
They are selling either USB-C or Thunderbolt 3 cables. If you want them to be calling it passive and active then by all means, contact them. I don't care how they call it as long as it is clear what it is (and it is very clear).

At best, that passive USB-C cable is untested with TB3 and might not be up to snuff. Potentially, if the TB controller checks the cable ID chip to see if it is a thunderbolt certified cable, it just won't work. I have no means of testing this at the moment (and it could change overnight with a firmware update).
Why test when it is already been tested by many reviewers (MacRumors being one), it is in the standard and listed in whitepapers from Intel as well? The 0.5m cable works for both USB and Thunderbolt, the other lengths do not because for those lengths you need the smarter cable (thus the active one).

I have the 0.5m and 2m cable and the difference in cable thickness is nothing but the difference in size of the connector is considerable. The active cable has a much bigger one which is easily explained due to the added circuitry. Something that is also noticeable when you touch it after it has been in use for some time. The active one is hotter.

In any case, you're still ignoring the multiple types of USB-C cable (not mentioning Thunderbolt) with different data rates (USB 2/5Gbps USB 3.1g1/10Gbps USB 3.1g2) and max power delivery set out in black and white in the spec.
I'm not ignoring anything. The problem here is that you are only seeing the minute details and not the bigger picture. Back to my original comment: there are always a lot of different kinds of cables in the beginning of any standard. Even quality varies a lot. After some time (which is where we are moving to within the next year) this fades away and there will be less different cables. The reason for that is quite simple: adoption rate. People are not going to need all those speciality cables or the ones with feature xy but not z. In the end they either want something that does it all (and is expensive) or something cheap.

The other thing you are missing here just like with the power cable is the fact that when you buy a device they always come with one (or even multiple ones). There is no choosing a cable because you use what came with the device.

Sorry, but a 10Gbps USB 3.1g2 device throttled to 408Mbps USB 2, or a display that doesn't display, or a charger that can't keep your battery charged during intensive work doesn't meet my criteria for "works".
Exactly, yours. Someone else will have different criteria. When a drive crashes the only thing people care about is getting their data off the drive. They don't care how long it takes at all, they just want the data. When you are working with things on a daily basis then it might annoy you but then you'd actually have to notice the difference. Most people won't due to lack of knowledge (read: they simply don't know any better) and some even get used to it (they even get used to a malware infested Windows machine).

No, I'm just finding citations to double-check and support what I already know.
I noticed since this reply of yours is once again filled with things that are only partially correct and personal attacks because you fail to counter it with actual technical knowledge. Try doing the latter instead of the former.

Yeah - I'm sure that the future will be rosy when DisplayPort 1.3 is supported on USB-C ports that actually exist in real computers... (which, for Mac users, is probably going to mean waiting for Thunderbolt 4 and a couple of processor generations down the line for DP1.3/1.4 support from Intel).
Then you didn't understand what VESA wrote. USB-C doesn't support a specific protocol. The DisplayPort standard specifies a certain bandwidth for a lane and 4k@60Hz needs a certain bandwidth. Right now it means that 4k@60Hz has to use all 4 lanes to get that bandwidth. With newer versions of DisplayPort the bandwidth of a lane can be (and will be) increased thus requiring less lanes. PCIe and Thunderbolt same thing.
Whether or not things are rosy highly depends on what display and resolution you are using. Many people are below 2k displays and are already rosy because DP1.2 easily supports those. The people with 4k displays are fine too. The ones with 5k and wanting 8k are not ok.

OK, so you really don't understand what "active", "passive" and "ID chip" mean in this context.
You were under the impression that having an ID chip meant that it is "active" whereas active, passive and ID chip are all separate things that do not have anything to do with each other. I had to point that out to you by mentioned several protocols that all have this ID chip too but are all passive. The USB-C documentation has a really good chapter on this which explains it very clearly. It even tells you there are 2 kinds of ID chips being used in USB-C.

What active has always meant is that there has to be a "regulator" chip (a chip that regulates/controls the data signals). Passive simply means that there is no such chip. Neither of them say anything about an ID chip. USB-C and Thunderbolt follow that principle as detailed by the standards themselves.

I'm not "seeing that fact" because of a ton of pesky evidence that proves it to be nonsense - like the actual USB-C specs that actually list the multiple permutations of cable types, and the actual existence of at least 4 different types of USB-C/TB3 cable in the Apple Store alone... and that's just in the early days of USB C!
Yeah, just in the early days. It's going to change since everything will be moving to USB-C anyway and people either going for something that is cheap or something that works properly (which will be more expensive). It's something you see with docking stations too. People aren't buying the much cheaper USB ones, they were buying the expensive proprietary/Thunderbolt ones.

Sure, there are multiple types and grades of DisplayPort cable, HDMI cable, Ethernet cable etc. but at least they accumulated slowly as the standards evolved. USB-C has hit the ground running with 5-6 different cable types... what's it going to be like when we have USB 3.3, Thunderbolt 4 etc?
Less and less. Lots of things are already wireless and the amount of USB-C cables one really needs decreases too. I believe there will be only 2 kinds left: the normal priced one that does everything and the cheap one which comes with limitations. Which is exactly the idea behind these cables anyway.

Right. Got it. I'm the only person in the world with such an exotic thing as a 4k display. Can't imagine how it got on the shelf of my local PC superstore for under £500.

NB: that was sarcasm.
That isn't sarcasm, that's narcism since you are clearly not the only person in the world. When we look at countries like China or a content such as Africa alone there will be more people without those extremely expensive 4k displays. Even in a rich country like The Netherlands or Germany we are seeing this. For most people 200 euro is already considered expensive, let alone 500.

You really seem to be living in your own world. I'll just leave you to it then.
 
t highly depends what protocol that chip is using. In case of Apple it is either a USB controller (MacBook) or a Thunderbolt controller (MacBook Pro, iMac).

You said: "USB-C controllers do not exist because USB-C is only a connector and a cable."
Here is a USB-C controller: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/slvsd02c/slvsd02c.pdf

Where would you like to move your goalposts to next?


The set of specifications is the definition of what a standard is. In this case the standard is about a connector and a cable.

No. Its about a connector, a set of standards for cables with various capabilities, and a set of protocols that allow them support a multitude of different functions in a standard way.

The 0.5m cable works for both USB and Thunderbolt, the other lengths do not because for those lengths you need the smarter cable (thus the active one).

That's not in contention. They are both thunderbolt cables and its well known that passive thunderbolt cables can also provide a USB 3.1 connection to a non-Thunderbolt device. What is somewhat more confusing is that the longer active Thunderbolt cable won't do that - only USB2.0. You can also have a longer, passive thunderbolt cable, by the way, that maxes out as 20Gbps (so don't try and connect a 5k display) but will carry USB3.1 - possibly the best candidate for a "sort-of-does it all" cable, although I hope the people you mentioned - who keep plugging their USB cables into RJ45 sockets - have got the memo on that one.

Then there's is the question that I admit not knowing the answer to - whether a non-thunderbolt-branded, full-feature USB-C cable (USB trident logo + '10' on the plug) will carry a Thunderbolt signal or if the TB3 controller will insist on seeing the "thunderbolt" flag in the cable ID (something that could easily be implementation/firmware-version dependent). If you've actually got one to try then I'd be interested to know.

I'm not ignoring anything. The problem here is that you are only seeing the minute details and not the bigger picture.

...and your problem is that the "minute details" actually disprove your assertions. I'm great with the "bigger picture" - one connector and cable that does it all - but sadly the devil is in the detail and what it is actually delivering is a set of superficially identical sockets and cables with a bewildering combinatorial explosion of different capabilities.

Back to my original comment: there are always a lot of different kinds of cables in the beginning of any standard.

No, your original point has been to flatly deny that there are more than two types of USB-C cable ("active" and "passive") ... and maybe charging.

The other thing you are missing here just like with the power cable is the fact that when you buy a device they always come with one (or even multiple ones). There is no choosing a cable because you use what came with the device.

So, what happened to (in your own words):
"With USB-C the only thing that matters is what the other side of the cable is supporting/requiring..."

Now your argument is that everything will be fine provided we stick to the cable that came with the device? Those two positions are completely contradictory.

NB: if you buy an extra 87W power supply from Apple, it doesn't come with a USB-C cable.

With newer versions of DisplayPort the bandwidth of a lane can be (and will be) increased thus requiring less lanes.

Please point out one available, or announced, product that supports DisplayPort 1.3/1.4 over a USB-C connector, or any announced plans by Intel to start supporting DisplayPort 1.4 in their Thunderbolt/USB-C chipset. The latest 27" iMacs and MBPs with up-to-date GPUs ought to support it - but I have seen no mention of that, and if the Intel chips driving the USB-C ports won't pass DP1.4 signals it isn't going to happen any time soon. There aren't that many DP1.4 displays around - and they tend to have DisplayPort connectors - because the PC GPUs that support 1.4 tend to have DisplayPort connectors.

You were under the impression that having an ID chip meant that it is "active" whereas active, passive and ID chip are all separate things that do not have anything to do with each other.

No. You've just taken what I said, re-phrased it and quoted it back. Huh?

Yeah, just in the early days. It's going to change since everything will be moving to USB-C anyway and people either going for something that is cheap or something that works properly (which will be more expensive).
...
believe there will be only 2 kinds left: the normal priced one that does everything and the cheap one which comes with limitations.

There you go moving the goalposts again. Sure, maybe, in the future, we'll have settled down to 2 types of cable. Or, maybe, we'll have USB 3.3 and Thunderbolt 4 thrown into the mix. The reality today, though, is that there are about half-a-dozen permutations of USB 2/USB 3.1/Thunderbolt in 3A and 5A flavours, plus charge cables - and people will doubtless continue to buy the one that's a dollar cheaper.

When we look at countries like China or a content such as Africa alone there will be more people without those extremely expensive 4k displays.

Now, there's a classic straw man argument.

I never claimed that there was no - or negligible - demand for sub-4k displays any more.

You asserted that the demand for 4k/5k was insignificant. The fact that there is still demand for sub-4k doesn't prove that. It doesn't matter whether or not "most people" want a 4k display (...if you start playing that game, "most people" don't use Macs, yet you're bothering to read a Mac forum.) What's more, its not "most people" who are going to be sniffing around USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 right now, which currently mostly feature on the more expensive computers - like Macs and high-end PC ultrabooks.

Support for 4k and 5k ranks high in the promotional literature for USB-C and TB3 (even though, when you scratch the surface, USB-C's 4k support will remain very limited until DP1.4 implementations are commonplace). Its certainly of great interest on this site.
 
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