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Safari for Windows Receives Prominent Placement on Microsoft's European 'Browser Ballot'

Oh Mozilla please cry me a river...
I mean seriously, I think the screen looks great, and regardless if people will be more inclined to click the first option or not, at least all of them are getting exposure, and alternative browsers will be used, This can only help their market share (even if not as much as they want) and would certainly help the web as a whole. MS is being pretty good sports by the looks of the ballet option in my opinion. I may not like everything MS does, but I do think if the EU doesn't accept this option they are just wasting Euro tax money when they could be worrying about a lot better things.

(For the record, this message was typed using Firefox 3)
 
Balmer is laughing...

Hmmm. MSFT proposes putting an Apple product first. Somehow you have to believe that MSFT is just jerking the EU around (rightfully so). How can anyone expect anyone to take the EU seriously.

The ballot is a reaction to the idiotic demand that Windows be shipped without a browser. That's so the end user can download the browser of his/her choice with... er.. what??? ... there's no browser to download the browser with! :confused::confused::confused: Good thinking EU.
 
ValSalva said:
The ballot is a reaction to the idiotic demand that Windows be shipped without a browser. That's so the end user can download the browser of his/her choice with... er.. what??? ... there's no browser to download the browser with! :confused::confused::confused: Good thinking EU.
Click to expand...
You don't need a browser to do that. :p
 
MorphingDragon said:
Plus it can be removed. IE on the other hand, this debate started in XP where IE was needed just to update etc.
Click to expand...

FUD. Safari cannot be removed, like IE cannot be removed. You can remove the .app, just like you can remove the IE .exe, but you cannot remove webkit just like you can't remove the IE engine as they are used by the core OS for other things.

OSX and IE are setup quite the same in this regard.
 
ValSalva said:
Well no, of course not. But the majority of typical computer users would be lost. And I'll bet the powers that be in the EU would not know how to download anything without a browser :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Then The EU would complain that MS included FTP, and users are thus not being given a choice on choosing their own FTP client. Where would the cycle end. LOL
 
you're kidding right?

OMG, is this person serious? Stop whining already. I'm impressed MS is even going to the trouble to do this. Will alphabetical by product name work for you? Geez.

MS: Just randomize it, be done, then tell any other whiners where to go.
 
ValSalva said:
Hmmm. MSFT proposes putting an Apple product first. Somehow you have to believe that MSFT is just jerking the EU around (rightfully so). How can anyone expect anyone to take the EU seriously.
Click to expand...
How about the simple fact that the EU market is significantly larger than the North American market?

And how exactly is this different from MS being convicted of monopoly abuse in the US of A? Oh wait, here they try to actually DO something instead of just slapping them on the wrist and say 'you've been a bad boy, you can't do that, now go on your merry business'.

Then again, only an American could apply double standards and think its the right way.
 
Krevnik said:
The main point of contention here is that MSFT has 90% of the market, and the EU's claim is that because they bundle their own product with the OS, they are gaining unfair advantage using their OS monopoly to form and maintain a browser monopoly.

Usually, anti-trust requires that they have a monopoly first in one market before you can claim they are leveraging their monopoly to create new ones.

If Apple was the one with 90% market share, I can bet you that Apple would come under fire for the same thing if they didn't let OEM partners replace Safari during the install with something else and make it default.

The real thing that kickstarted this whole mess was back in the Win98 days because OEMs wanted to replace IE, MSFT said no, and governments started investigating.
Click to expand...

Just a difference between the EU and the United States. I wonder how many countries would have adopted the same policy if the EU did not exist. Guess we will never know.
 
numbersyx said:
Would people really pick Safari simply because it is the first item on the page? Surely not?????
Click to expand...

Absolutely they would. There are still plenty of folks out there that are not computer literate, and will chose the first option among anything because it seems like the safe thing to do.

With that said, this latest piece of FF propaganda has led me to decide to stop using FF for good. Chrome is fantastic on Windows, and Safari is fantastic on the Mac. Both are at least twice as fast, especially on my old Windows box where FF just lags and lags.

I think alphabetical order was a good choice. They could have randomized it, but that's just more work on their part. Alphabetical sorting is easier to do, and "fair".
 
throttlemeister said:
How about the simple fact that the EU market is significantly larger than the North American market?
Click to expand...

I should have made the distinction between the people of the EU and the ridiculous officials making these demands. (The USA doesn't have a monopoly on pompous, self-important officials). The people of Europe deserve much better representation that they are getting. They certainly deserve the same software the rest of the world is getting.

After all, it isn't still 1998.
 
larrylaffer said:
Absolutely they would. There are still plenty of folks out there that are not computer literate, and will chose the first option among anything because it seems like the safe thing to do.

With that said, this latest piece of FF propaganda has led me to decide to stop using FF for good. Chrome is fantastic on Windows, and Safari is fantastic on the Mac. Both are at least twice as fast, especially on my old Windows box where FF just lags and lags.

I think alphabetical order was a good choice. They could have randomized it, but that's just more work on their part. Alphabetical sorting is easier to do, and "fair".
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Also Alphabetizing made it an easy solution that is clearly unbiased, a random option would come under scrutiny for how the algorithm works, and blah blah blah. Alphabetizing is simple, it makes sense and in my opinion is fair.
You don't hear Chrome (Google) or Opera complaining.
 
well, if Ms Borris has no problem funding the extra time for the work required, however large or small-why not?

Otherwise what a stupid thing to get upset about;
Would she complain if FF were listed first?-because that would happen if it were browser alphabetic

I guess MS had no other choice-one could accuse them of "rigging" a random
screen browser generator display on opening-ie MSIE might 'randomly' appear first more often than it should statistically...

what a loser

>>The ballot is a reaction to the idiotic demand that Windows be shipped without a browser. That's so the end user can download the browser of his/her choice with... er.. what???
... there's no browser to download the browser with! Good thinking EU.
---
Im sure on first boot a server connection like SOFTWARE UPDATE would open-and offer this browser menu....put a checkmark next to the browser of your choice then hit "download"...you dont need a browser to do this
 
throttlemeister said:
FUD. Safari cannot be removed, like IE cannot be removed. You can remove the .app, just like you can remove the IE .exe, but you cannot remove webkit just like you can't remove the IE engine as they are used by the core OS for other things.

OSX and IE are setup quite the same in this regard.
Click to expand...

Wrong. You can remove Safari, and WebKit, which is in System/Library/Frameworks. You can also delete other associated files. And unlike IE, it won't magically re-spawn from the dregs of hell. You might not want to delete it however, since it's an API and other applications can take advantage of it.
 
Winni said:
Apple does not have more than 90% market share -- Microsoft does, and they are using their dominant position in the desktop market to also gain the leadership in the browser or media player market. And that is actually illegal in Europe: Using a monopoly in one market to gain another monopoly in a second market.
Click to expand...

So technically Apple selling their computers with only Mac OSX on it is illegal in europe, because Apple has the monopoly on Macs, and no other OS's even have a chance :p

Seriously, that's a stupid law.
 
Jenny Boriss should stop whining. Safari is the fastest browser in the world (currently) and the most secure. It renders pages much more elegantly than Firefox. Funny how only Firefox complains and Google/Opera don't complain.

Firefox is only good for plugins, the page rendering and other performance benchmarks rank it 3rd place after Apple and Google.

Safari is NOT only good for Macintosh computers. It's just as good on Windows. Safari 4.x is the ONLY browser in the world that passes the Acid3 test, Windows and Mac. While it's not the only indicator of web standard compliance, it does cover the vast majority that people actually encounter on the web.
 
SnowLeopard2008 said:
Funny how only Firefox complains and Google/Opera don't complain.
Click to expand...

It was pretty much Opera's complaints that forced this position in the first place.

As per the other remarks that is obviously a point of discussion. Browser use comes down to personal choice based on a whole ream of different factors, UI, speed, features, adaptability, etc. etc.
 
Get over it, Firefox

As many other commentators have noted, Firefox reps would not be complaining if the browsers were arranged alphabetically by browser name, or better yet, if Firefox were placed in the starting column. Microsoft has made a reasonable attempt to comply with EU rulings. Enough is Enough.

For all of you pooh-poohing the EU, I say go back to school and get some "learnin" with regard to laissez-faire capitalist economic systems and the misery that entails for both workers and consumers. You guys are drinking entirely too much right wing , US Republican kool-aid. The current economic meltdown that has devastated the American economy is the direct result of W's 8 year onslaught of laissez-faire economic principals and has dished us up the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression. Or didn't they teach you youngins about the Depression in college (or high school)?

This is a good development for consumers in both Europe and North America. We should be commending the EU for having the guts to stands up to M$. Let's hope they issue similar rulings against Intel in its monopolistic attempts to run AMD out of business. Free market competition will always be the best way to benefit both consumers and companies. But, the markets must be free (level playing field for companies regardless of size) and competition must be fair (no predatory pricing, product tying, vendor intimidation, etc.) When those conditions aren't met, the biggest corporations can always rub out the little guy. Sometimes it takes government intervention to ensure that the markets are free and competition is fair. There is absolutely nothing "communist" or "socialist" about such regulations. If this were so, then we'd have to label Republican Teddy Roosevelt a Socialist because many of the laws the Bush Administration refused to observe and enforce were written, introduced and signed into law by the Teddy Roosevelt administration at the turn of the last Century.
 
It would be great for opera if it was the first choice...their market share would go up so much.

(typed using opera 10)
 
willdenow said:
As many other commentators have noted, Firefox reps would not be complaining if the browsers were arranged alphabetically by browser name, or better yet, if Firefox were placed in the starting column. Microsoft has made a reasonable attempt to comply with EU rulings. Enough is Enough.

For all of you pooh-poohing the EU, I say go back to school and get some "learnin" with regard to laissez-faire capitalist economic systems and the misery that entails for both workers and consumers. You guys are drinking entirely too much right wing , US Republican kool-aid. The current economic meltdown that has devastated the American economy is the direct result of W's 8 year onslaught of laissez-faire economic principals and has dished us up the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression. Or didn't they teach you youngins about the Depression in college (or high school)?

This is a good development for consumers in both Europe and North America. We should be commending the EU for having the guts to stands up to M$. Let's hope they issue similar rulings against Intel in its monopolistic attempts to run AMD out of business. Free market competition will always be the best way to benefit both consumers and companies. But, the markets must be free (level playing field for companies regardless of size) and competition must be fair (no predatory pricing, product tying, vendor intimidation, etc.) When those conditions aren't met, the biggest corporations can always rub out the little guy. Sometimes it takes government intervention to ensure that the markets are free and competition is fair. There is absolutely nothing "communist" or "socialist" about such regulations. If this were so, then we'd have to label Republican Teddy Roosevelt a Socialist because many of the laws the Bush Administration refused to observe and enforce were written, introduced and signed into law by the Teddy Roosevelt administration at the turn of the last Century.
Click to expand...

I might like to point out that the US compared to the EU system for regulation of companies if any one cared to study and not just listen to the what the media tells them (which is only a 1/4 truth at best) would noticed something interesting.

That is the Good times in the US economy are better than the good times in the EU economy. On the flip side the bad times in the US are worse than in the EU.

Basicly the US has higher highs and lower lows than the EU. Unemployment in the US during good times is lower than in EU. Bad times well it is higher. It is take your pick on which system you think is better.



As for the article FF the blog is no official by FF or Mozilla but a personal bitching by yes a higher up.

Another fact to look at is Mozilla/Firefox has more cards against it than for it. It does not carry the name recognition with the general public as Microsoft, Apple and Google do. So yes it hurts. People know who Apple, Google, and Microsoft but not very many people know who Opera or Mozilla are.

I can see it from both points of view. Microsoft went with an easy far way to do it by going with the aphbical by company name. Another way they could of done it is based name of the browser which would of put Chrome FF, IE, Oprea, Saf. That would of look bad and yes the Apple Fan boys would of been screaming how it unfair for apple to be listed dead last yet it is alphabetical.

I personally think Marketshare would of been better but Alphabetical is the way it is.


Something I do want to ask is the people blasting the FF. How would you of felt if Safari was listed last because it is the last one listed by the name of the browser. I know for a fact that you all would not be happy about it.
 
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