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It speaks to the patent's validity. It also points out some of the US court system's foibles.

2013 - The German (and Dutch) cases were decided by judges with technical backgrounds, who looked at the prior art and quickly invalidated the slide-to-unlock patent.

2014 - The US case was originally decided by a lay jury, who... without such technical background, and without seeing the prior art... apparently put a lot of stock in the fact that the patent was granted, not realizing that doesn't necessarily mean it actually should've been.

2016 - Later on, a set of three patent knowledgeable US judges threw out the jury verdict and invalidated the patent.

2016 - Six months later, a different set of judges surprised everyone by (totally out of the blue) deciding that because the three judges above had seen more prior art than the jury had, the jury verdict... which was based on less evidence and knowledge... should be reinstated. They also refused to hear more evidence themselves.

- The original three judges filed dissenting opinions designed to give Samsung ammunition for a SCOTUS appeal. Moreover, most of the patent legal community... including the nation's top authority on patent law... also is upset with that set of judges weakening the obviousness test for patents, something which goes against a previous SCOTUS ruling. Not to mention refusing to hear more arguments before making such a surprising decision.

It was so controversial an action, even Apple's own counsel seemed surprised.

See: http://www.fosspatents.com/2016/11/federal-circuit-unsurprisingly-upholds.html

Thus we come to today, where everyone is wondering if / how Samsung will file an appeal to the Supreme Court.

It is important to read the original article: http://www.fosspatents.com/2017/02/samsung-is-now-taking-second-apple-v.html
All judicial systems are different. And sure I'll agree no judicial system is perfect.

However here in the US, it's the only one we have, and I can't blame any company for using the system, foibles and all, to their full advantage. So it is what it is and here we are today.
 
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Oh, for the love. Somebody just pay somebody and let's move on.

I'm sure the CEO of Samsung can write a check from jail to Apple :).
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Maybe if it weren't for those thieving bastards at SAMSUNG we'd still have "Slide to unlock"

Stupid "Press Home to open". :( "Slide to unlock", you were just so fast and convienient. Gone but not forgotten!

I liked slide to unlock.
 
Touch ID is fairly reliable with some limitations. Those limitations don't make it unreliable or inconsistent in the bigger sense. I've been using touchid since the 5s days and I find it overall to be reliable and consistent. Touch id doesn't work with everyones fingerprints, or maybe when dirty or damp, but that does not make it not a worthwhile technology.

I don't have any real issues with touch id so for me it's a time-saver. If you are having issues, turn it off and wait for touchid II in the iphone 8. I may remediate some of the wet/damp/dirty finger issues. There is no magic bullet.

As far as the home button, my analogy is I drive my car hard and don't worry if the engine will prematurely fail. Same with the home button, I use the phone, home button, charge as needed, etc. It's a tool that is easily replaced. (I did replace it with an iphone 7, but my 6s is still active)

There are people who post who have continuing problems with touch id, but from what I've seen around family and friends, it's not a pervasive issue, at least in my circles.
I have been using my touch ID since the 5s as well. (Launch day purchase)
But it has never been reliable on the 5s. It has improved a bit on the 6s. (again, launch day purchase)
But the issue is removing a feature that is easy to use which reduces time being wasted. There is simply no reason for removing the slide to unlock feature. Or, at least I can't think of any.

Using the car being driven hard is not really a good comparison unless you modified your vehicle after you bought it.
The vehicle was designed to handle the abuse from the get go.
In the iPhone's case, the touch ID on the 5s was designed for iOS 7 and the 6s was designed for iOS 9. The design may have the iOS 10 in mind when the product was planned. But it is not fool-proof. My 6s home button is already acting up while still on iOS 9 before I have dished out any more abuse with iOS 10. I am expecting the work phone 6s with iOS 10 will destroy the home button soon...
 
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I really miss slide-to-unlock. I still have to actively think about pressing the button after doing the Touch ID, while slide-to-unlock seemed completely intuitive.

You can turn it off in the settings. I have mine set utilizing the "raise to wake" and then have it diasabled in setting to press the home button. It only needs a read of your finger to open it up.
 
Ever tried with a finger that is slightly damp?
Some of us have sweaty hands that are beyond our control and removing the slide to unlock feature introduces unnecessary frustrations.

To be fair, with the 6S (version I have) is not too bad even with damp finger. But for these rare occasions it takes me a second to wipe my finger. I would rather do that then having to slide every time I unlock my phone. One home button press and unlocked. No passwords, no annoying slides.... how great and secure is that!!
 
I really miss slide-to-unlock. I still have to actively think about pressing the button after doing the Touch ID, while slide-to-unlock seemed completely intuitive.

You can still enjoy the slide to shut-down on your iPhone, it is the same motion.
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Apple doesn't even use this anymore. Why are they still fighting over it?

Money, money, money
 
You DO know that Apple holds many patents that are 'ideas' right? Not in physical form but just some drawings and text. It makes a complete mockery of your comment.
No, they don't. One cannot patent an idea. You are mistaken and misinformed. You make a complete mockery of your own posts.
As for the legality, I suggest you read up in the German case then as they threw Apples case out twice, basing on prior art including Neonode and other things, so again your making a comment against something that is fact.
There's that mockery again. Germany is not the United States. German laws and legal rulings have no force within the United States. This article is not about a lawsuit in Germany.
 
It speaks to the patent's validity. It also points out some of the US court system's foibles.

2013 - The German (and Dutch) cases were decided by judges with technical backgrounds, who looked at the prior art and quickly invalidated the slide-to-unlock patent.

2014 - The US case was originally decided by a lay jury, who... without such technical background, and without seeing the prior art... apparently put a lot of stock in the fact that the patent was granted, not realizing that doesn't necessarily mean it actually should've been.

2016 - Later on, a set of three patent knowledgeable US judges threw out the jury verdict and invalidated the patent.

2016 - Six months later, a different set of judges surprised everyone by (totally out of the blue) deciding that because the three judges above had seen more prior art than the jury had, the jury verdict... which was based on less evidence and knowledge... should be reinstated. They also refused to hear more evidence themselves. In short, they cared less about actual validity, than about legal technicalities.

- The original three judges filed dissenting opinions designed to give Samsung ammunition for a SCOTUS appeal. Moreover, most of the patent legal community... including the nation's top authority on patent law... also is upset with that set of judges weakening the obviousness test for patents, something which goes against a previous SCOTUS ruling. Not to mention refusing to hear more arguments before making such a surprising decision.

It was so controversial an action, even Apple's own counsel seemed surprised.

See: http://www.fosspatents.com/2016/11/federal-circuit-unsurprisingly-upholds.html

Thus we come to today, where everyone is wondering if / how Samsung will file an appeal to the Supreme Court.

It is important to read the original article: http://www.fosspatents.com/2017/02/samsung-is-now-taking-second-apple-v.html

A lot of attention in this thread is being focused on the part of this case relating to the slide-to-unclock patent. I would note that only about $3 million of the original jury award was based on Samsung's infringement of that patent.

Anyway... On what do you base the assertion that apparently the jury put a lot of stock in the fact that the patent was granted? Do you just mean that in the general sense that a jury considering such matters is more or less supposed to do that? Or do you mean something more specific relating to what this jury actually did, that it somehow placed unusual or improper importance on a patent having been granted?

A patent having been granted creates a (rebuttable) presumption that it is valid. So a jury is supposed start from the position that it is valid and require the challenger (in this case Samsung) to demonstrate that it is not. The patent holder doesn't need to demonstrate that it is valid. So, in that general sense, it would be fair to say that a jury (or a court) put some stock in the patent having been granted. This jury would have been instructed that Samsung needed to demonstrate by clear and convincing evidence that the patent is invalid, and clear and convincing is a higher standard of proof than the preponderance of evidence stand that we hear about in relation to many civil cases.

That said, the jury received considerable instruction regarding the possibility that a patent could be invalid - about what it would need to consider in determining whether a patent was invalid. The jury also heard considerable evidence on that issue. So the jury would have been well aware that a patent having been granted doesn't necessarily mean that it is valid.

I'd also note that what you say about the jury not seeing the prior art is incorrect. The jury was aware of the prior art (i.e. both the Neonode and Plaisant references) and heard (conflicting) expert testimony on its relevance to their deliberations.

I think the jury could have made the opposite finding when it comes to the obviousness of the slide-to-unlock patent, and that conclusion could fairly be argued to be supported by substantial evidence. But the same can be said of the finding that it did make, that the patent claim was not obvious and thus is valid. The important point is, that finding of fact is one the jury is supposed to make. And so long as it is a plausible finding, the original court and appeals courts are supposed to defer to that finding of fact even if they might themselves have reached a different conclusion. (The exact legal standard for reviewing such jury findings varies depending on the situation, we can get lost in that discussion if you want; but broadly speaking the question is something like - would it have been possible for a reasonable juror to reach that conclusion?)

I suspect you're being hyperbolic when you suggest that the en banc decision surprised everyone (there's nothing wrong with that, btw, we all do that). But if you meant to be literal, I can say that you are wrong. The decision didn't surprise me. There are a bunch of pieces to these decisions, and I can't say that I expected the en banc Federal Circuit to rule the way it did on all of them as I hadn't put much thought into some aspects of the case. But when it came to the infringement finding for the detected structures patent and the nonobviousness finding for the slide-to-unlock patent, I would have been surprised if the en banc decision had gone the other way. Again, a reasonable jury might have found the latter patent invalid for obviousness. But that wasn't the question for the appeals court. The question was is there substantial evidence to support that finding (even if there is substantial evidence the other way). And I think the answer to that question is... yes, there is. Apple didn't need to prove validity, Samsung needed to prove invalidity by clear and convincing evidence.

What you say about the en banc court deciding to reinstate the jury verdict because the original panel had seen more prior art than the jury had is not correct. I suspect you are confusing aspects of the case, perhaps someone else's commentary on the case is misleading or just unclear on this point. The extra-record evidence (which the en banc court claims the original panel relied upon) related to the claim construction for the detected structures patent. And it wasn't additional prior art. (The validity of that patent wasn't at issue on appeal, just whether it was infringed. It was that patent, btw, which most of the original jury award - almost $100 million of it - was based on.) The en banc court claims that the original panel used evidence that wasn't in the record to support a different meaning that it attributed to a term used in the patent claim, a meaning that was different than the one the parties themselves (i.e. both Apple and Samsung) agreed upon.
 
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It shows how ridiculous the patent it. I mean considering Apple took Samsung to court across the world with the patent, and courts outside America have thrown it out, it has a lot to do with American cases. As I said hopefully the Supreme Court will invalidate the patent too, it seems to have reversed a few Apple wins against Samsung...
"Your Autobahn is stupid because in Canada and the U.S. the argument that people have a right to speed has been thrown out. What a ridiculous law, allowing people to drive faster than 100 km/h. Hopefully your courts will wake up some day."
 
No, they don't. One cannot patent an idea. You are mistaken and misinformed. You make a complete mockery of your own posts.

There's that mockery again. Germany is not the United States. German laws and legal rulings have no force within the United States. This article is not about a lawsuit in Germany.

No point discussing this if you have no idea about patents to be honest..

"Your Autobahn is stupid because in Canada and the U.S. the argument that people have a right to speed has been thrown out. What a ridiculous law, allowing people to drive faster than 100 km/h. Hopefully your courts will wake up some day."

Hahaha that has to be one of the most stupid comments I've read on this site, you display that you don't even have a clue how the Autobhan laws work...
Also have you decided to include every country other then America to be German? It seems your implying that as I'm not German nor do I love there
 
To be fair, with the 6S (version I have) is not too bad even with damp finger. But for these rare occasions it takes me a second to wipe my finger. I would rather do that then having to slide every time I unlock my phone. One home button press and unlocked. No passwords, no annoying slides.... how great and secure is that!!
Tried wiping the finger with no luck. When the phone throws the tantrum, I cannot win.
"I would rather do that then having to slide every time I unlock my phone."
This makes no sense at all...
I was complaining about the secondary/backup unlock method (slide to unlock) is gone for no good reason.
If the primary unlock method is working, then the secondary/backup method is not deployed. If the primary unlock method is not working, then a secondary/backup method should be easily launch-able instead of making the user press the home button furiously.
 
All judicial systems are different. And sure I'll agree no judicial system is perfect.

However here in the US, it's the only one we have, and I can't blame any company for using the system, foibles and all, to their full advantage. So it is what it is and here we are today.

This proves that Samsung loses in the US because Apple has the home ground advantage
 
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Because in the US the case was saw for what it was, ip infringement.

No, because the American courts and patent system are biased, mostly, I mean considering the Supreme Court had already heard one case and awarded in Samsungs favour... but I guess you'll ignore that fact?

When will people accept the fact Apples business model is to patent anything it can get away with and then sue the competition out of the market place? It's done it for years now. It's got nothing to do with innovation and everything to do with gaining the market. I mean when Apples products were banned from sale in America in yet another court case Apple went crying like a spoilt 3 year old brat to the President to overturn the decision..

Sums it all up really.
 
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No, because the American courts and patent system are biased, mostly, I mean considering the Supreme Court had already heard one case and awarded in Samsungs favour... but I guess you'll ignore that fact?

When will people accept the fact Apples business model is to patent anything it can get away with and then sue the competition out of the market place? It's done it for years now. It's got nothing to do with innovation and everything to do with gaining the market. I mean when Apples products were banned from sale in America in yet another court case Apple went crying like a spoilt 3 year old brat to the President to overturn the decision..

Sums it all up really.
It doesn't really matter, you (a company) want to do business here in the US, you are operating under our laws. Biased, not biased etc this is the reality of doing business in the US. We will see what develops.

Reality is, it is what it is.
 
It doesn't really matter, you (a company) want to do business here in the US, you are operating under our laws. Biased, not biased etc this is the reality of doing business in the US. We will see what develops.

Reality is, it is what it is.

The point is its unfair to accuse Samsung of copying Apple when bias exists. The fact that Apple won in the end because of the president says it all
 
The point is its unfair to accuse Samsung of copying Apple when bias exists. The fact that Apple won in the end because of the president says it all
Here in the US they are headed to court over this issue. If found they copied they will pay. The courts will decide, not MR posters. And good for Apple then. They used the system to protect their ip. Irrelevant if others don't like it.
 
Here in the US they are headed to court over this issue. If found they copied they will pay. The courts will decide, not MR posters. And good for Apple then. They used the system to protect their ip. Irrelevant if others don't like it.
But Apple has no grounds to sue because they ripped off the gesture from someone else to begin with. Apple knows they will win on home turf which is why they get away with it

 
The point is its unfair to accuse Samsung of copying Apple when bias exists. The fact that Apple won in the end because of the president says it all

This isn't about bias (as relates to particular parties). This is about having different legal standards and different ways of doing things in the United States.

Samsung has won against Apple in the U.S. on numerous issues. Apple has also won on certain issues. Samsung just recently won on a fairly significant issue in our highest court, the Supreme Court.

When it comes to the case we've been talking about here, the issue is that in the U.S. we have a constitutional right to trial by jury in most cases. Our Seventh Amendment reads:

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

We have set a high bar when it comes to judges being allowed to disregard the factual determinations of juries. Judges don't just get to override what juries decide just because they think it's wrong (or because of their own outcome preferences). That is one way in which our Constitution protects us; we've decided that in some situations we'd rather trust groups of our fellow citizens than individual judges. It is a right that I have in American courts. It is also a right that both Apple and Samsung have in American courts. Are there problems created by our having that right? Of course, there are problems created by most all rights that we have. But we've decided that having those rights is worth the problems they create.

Whether a claim was obvious based on prior art is a finding of fact that we have a constititional right to have a jury - not judges - determine. There are legal standards for determining obviousness which a jury is instructed on. But it is then left to them, based on evidence that they hear, to make the factual determination. Whether a claim is infringed is also a finding of fact left to the jury (if a jury was desired by one of the parties). Claim construction - what terms used in patent claims mean, if they have particular or specialized meanings beyond the ordinary meaning of the words - is a legal issue left to judges. But once a jury is given claim constructions and hears testimony on whether a claim was infringed based on those claim constructions, it is for the jury to determine whether infringement occurred. And in doing is, it is for the jury to determine (if necessary) more specific meaning based on the claim constructions it is given. For instance, if a claim construction given by the judge was - Term X means 'having numerous subordinate parts' - it would be left to the jury to determine what numerous meant in that context, based on its own understanding of that term and perhaps on evidence that it heard.

In this case a jury was presented with the prior art (relating to the slide-to-unlock patent) and heard conflicting testimony regarding the patent's obviousness based on that prior art. The jury decided which testimony it found more credible (or decided, at least, that it wasn't proven by clear and convincing evidence that the patent was obvious). That is the jury's decision to make and it is the right of the parties to have that decision by a jury respected.

The jury was also given a claim construction for 'analyzer server' and heard conflicting evidence regarding whether that limitation was present in Samsung's allegedly infringing method. There should be no dispute that the definition for 'analyzer server' that the jury was given was correct. It had just been determined to be proper by the Federal Circuit and it was agreed to by both parties in this case (i.e. Apple and Samsung). Based on that definition, the jury determined that that limitation (i.e. an analyzer server) was present and that (based on all the other limitations also being present) infringement occurred.

So a jury made the relevant factual determinations. A panel of three circuit judges then, in essence, substituted its own judgement for that of the jury's (on factual matters). Those judges determined, in effect, that no reasonable jury could have found the way this jury did.

There were some issues with how those judges arrived at that conclusion. For instance, they seemed to rely on a different - more specific - meaning of the term 'analyzer server' than the one which the jury had been given and which the Federal Circuit (to include two of those same judges) had determined to be proper less than two years earlier. Based on that more specific understanding of the term, those judges determined in effect that no reasonable jury could have found as it did when it came to the presence of the analyzer server limitation. But again, because we have a constitutional right to have factual determinations made by juries, those judges shouldn't have disregarded the findings of the jury based on their own more specific understanding of the term. A more specific understanding of the term was, if it was needed, left to the jury (so long as that more specific understanding was, itself, plausible based on the evidence the jury heard). If those judges felt a more specific definition of the term was required, they should have provided it two years earlier when they settled on the legal definition of the term instead of coming up with it later (perhaps) in order to have a basis on which to overturn a result in this case. In effect the judges determined the legal rules the jury should abide by in making factual determinations and then, after the jury had made those determinations, added additional rules which they thought the jury should have abided by.

But the findings of those three judges - which had thrown out the jury's factual findings - were overturned by eight other judges. Those eight other judges decided that the high bar set for judges substituting their own judgment for that of juries had not been reached in this case (i.e. with regard to certain aspects of this case).

So we have a jury making decisions. Then we have 3 judges saying (some of) those decisions aren't supported by substantial evidence and could not have been reached by a reasonable jury while we have 9 other judges (the district judge and 8 circuit judges) saying, yes, those decisions were supported by substantial evidence and could have been reached by a reasonable jury. So, as our Constitution requires, the jury's decision has force (at least for now). (And, btw, the technical and legal background of the en banc judges was every bit as substantial as that of the original panel judges.)


The TL;DR: The issue here isn't bias in the United States. The issue is that we enjoy robust protection of our right to trial by juries, which includes the right to have the factual determinations made by juries respected by judges and appeals court. That right of course creates inefficiencies and problems sometimes as most rights do, but we've decided that the benefits of those rights outweigh the costs.
 
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No point discussing this if you have no idea about patents to be honest..



Hahaha that has to be one of the most stupid comments I've read on this site, you display that you don't even have a clue how the Autobhan laws work...
Also have you decided to include every country other then America to be German? It seems your implying that as I'm not German nor do I love there
1) Ideas cannot be patented. Period. If you disagree, I'd love to be proven wrong--I'm always willing to learn new things. Can you cite some reputable source?
2) You spoke of Germany, so I spoke of Germany for consistency. Please, not everything revolves around you and your ego.
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Then why does Apple only win in the US while they lose worldwide?
Different laws. Different case law. Places where case law is not actually used but all cases are viewed as independent. Different juries. Different views of public policy. And so on.
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The point is its unfair to accuse Samsung of copying Apple when bias exists. The fact that Apple won in the end because of the president says it all
Can you support that bias exists or is that just what you run to in order to justify the decision you've already reached?
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But Apple has no grounds to sue because they ripped off the gesture from someone else to begin with. Apple knows they will win on home turf which is why they get away with it

Despite the ignorance prevalent in this thread, an idea, a gesture, or an outcome are not protected under patent law. The process or the method used to implement the idea or arrive at the outcome is what is protectable under patent law. If I've kept up-to-date on my info, Apple has lost in other jurisdiction because swipe to unlock was ruled to be non-novel, an obvious extension to existing ways. In fact, a while back in this very thread, didn't someone show that Samsung isn't even arguing the validity of the patent?
 
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