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gwsat

macrumors 68000
Apr 12, 2008
1,920
0
Tulsa
Like Scottsdale posted earlier, I am worried that there is little or no chance for Apple, Intel, and NVIDIA to come to an agreement that would allow NVIDIA to make integrated GPUs for Intel's i series chips. The last best hope appears to be either the Justice Department making Intel stop its anticompetitive behavior or a private antitrust suit forcing Intel to stop.

By the way, I was delighted to see that the mods did their thing and took down the appallingly offensive post by the cretin who called posters to this thread "retards." The actions of Intel notwithstanding to the contrary, justice really does prevail sometimes.:)
 

Hellhammer

Moderator emeritus
Dec 10, 2008
22,164
582
Finland
Like Scottsdale posted earlier, I am worried that there is little or no chance for Apple, Intel, and NVIDIA to come to an agreement that would allow NVIDIA to make integrated GPUs for Intel's i series chips. The last best hope appears to be either the Justice Department making Intel stop its anticompetitive behavior or a private antitrust suit forcing Intel to stop.

It doesn't matter anymore. Looks like nVidia got tired of fighting in court and decided to give up as they just discontinued their chipsets

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mainbo...dia_We_Are_Not_Building_Chipsets_Anymore.html

It's sad but I expected something like this. It's simply too expensive to fight in court every few years when new chipsets come. Intel IGPs also reduce the need for better IGPs so the market would have been fairly small as well
 

fibrizo

macrumors 6502
Jan 23, 2009
411
5
I for one am still very excited to see the first fusion chips out. Even though these are targeted for Atom level, they show a tremendous potential especially for the idle and full power consumption. It bodes well for a possible macbook air combo when the higher speed/spec cores come out with Llano. It will at the very least make intel try harder to be in the game and realize... we're sick of stupid intel igp performance.
 

grovertdog

macrumors regular
Sep 14, 2006
151
0
It doesn't matter anymore. Looks like nVidia got tired of fighting in court and decided to give up as they just discontinued their chipsets

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mainbo...dia_We_Are_Not_Building_Chipsets_Anymore.html

It's sad but I expected something like this. It's simply too expensive to fight in court every few years when new chipsets come. Intel IGPs also reduce the need for better IGPs so the market would have been fairly small as well

Your take is likely correct, but I have zero sympathy for NVidia. After the way they "bought off" reviews and provided bogus benchmarks during the battle with 3dfx years ago, I hardly believe they come from a position of moral authority... And I am not an Intel fan per se...
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
7,872
Your take is likely correct, but I have zero sympathy for NVidia. After the way they "bought off" reviews and provided bogus benchmarks during the battle with 3dfx years ago, I hardly believe they come from a position of moral authority... And I am not an Intel fan per se...

That said, the gradual decline of independent GPU companies does have an impact on the industry. Without a boost (perhaps from Apple) AMD/ATI just isn't providing enough competition to Intel.

NVidia is still in the business of graphics chips, at least. Their SoCs form a big part of the new supercomputer in China that is currently the world's fastest.
 

Scottsdale

Suspended
Sep 19, 2008
4,473
283
U.S.A.
nVidia gave up

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/mainbo...dia_We_Are_Not_Building_Chipsets_Anymore.html



So Fusion still needs separate bridges (i.e. no Northbridge integrated to the CPU)? Or what is the 3rd chip then?

Spin and games back and forth. Nvidia said it was giving up on chipsets right when Intel made the move, but Apple released several Macs with a new Nvidia GPU and chipset. The bottom line is investors shouldn't count on Nvidia making more chipsets for Apple. However, if you tell me Nvidia doesn't want to provide chipsets for these four Macs, I will tell you you're full of it.

Quite honestly, anti-competitive moves like Intel's move here is meant to make the competitor cease production until it can catch up and has the competitive advantage. If another year goes by and Intel can keep improving its IGP while Nvidia cannot spend any money on research and development of future chipsets, then Intel wins the game. Nvidia is simply saying it cannot spend the money on hopes and dreams and no guarantees. In addition, without spending the money, Intel definitely catches up and it may have too big of an advantage at that point. I would bet money Nvidia still wants the business and has devoted a lot of money towards attempting to settle this sooner rather than later.

Intel executives are complete trash in my opinion. As human beings and more importantly customers, we should be appalled and pray that someone steps in and does the right thing before it's too late for Nvidia. As consumers we are much better off with competition, and Intel knows it cannot win a fair fight, and it wants ALL of Apple's business. It's disgusting, and I would get away from Intel as fast as possible if I were Apple.

I hope Nvidia hasn't completely given up, but spin like this has to be made to assure investors that it knows exactly where it's going and it's not dependent upon something that may never happen. Let's all hope Intel stops its disgusting practices, or the justice department or another body stops this sooner rather than later as we all lose if we cannot have Nvidia chipsets and GPUs in the next MBA updates. If that doesn't happen, I pray Apple does the right thing and abandons Intel and publicly displays disgust over its practices. We are much better off with AMD CPUs, GPUs, and chipsets than we are with a complete Intel non-solution.




Like Scottsdale posted earlier, I am worried that there is little or no chance for Apple, Intel, and NVIDIA to come to an agreement that would allow NVIDIA to make integrated GPUs for Intel's i series chips. The last best hope appears to be either the Justice Department making Intel stop its anticompetitive behavior or a private antitrust suit forcing Intel to stop.

By the way, I was delighted to see that the mods did their thing and took down the appallingly offensive post by the cretin who called posters to this thread "retards." The actions of Intel notwithstanding to the contrary, justice really does prevail sometimes.:)

I get disgusted with people who call others "retards" as the word is being used in a truly disgusting way. Most people aren't aware of how offensive it can be, as they hear and read others using the word like that all of the time; however, that doesn't make it right, proper, or acceptable.

I have a daughter who was born with a myelin disorder in her brain. She is completely normal in mental ability, but she has problems with control of her muscular system. Her eyes wobble, so she is legally blind, her hands shake as though she has Parkinsons disease, and she cannot walk and uses a powered chair. She is the kindest, sweetest, and most loving person in the world, and it makes me sick when kids have heard the word used improperly by their parents and others and call her "retarded." It really makes the use of "retard" in any form disgusting.

I understand not everyone is aware of their uses, but as people we owe the world better and we need to treat people better. I often display opinions about companies, products, and etc, and people take it as a personal attack. I don't get it. People feel it's a personal attack on them if I don't want a 10-hour battery in my MBA, yet the same types of people squeal out "retard" and other offensive language attacking people all of the time.

Cannot we all just recognize that we're all not as privileged as others, and maybe if we walked a mile in another persons shoes we could realize the hurt and pain abusive language causes in others less fortunate? And also it's not a personal attack when someone attacks a company's products, desires of future products and such... maybe people should be more aware of the world around them. In any case, I find the use of the word "retard, retarded," and other variations disgusting and something we can do without on these forums.

I have been banned for calling someone a "onetwo" where one equals fan and two equals boi, yet I have seen it over 10,000 times on these forums with no banning, and you can see it too. Just go to google and search the domain macrumors.com, for the different uses of "onetwo" where one equals fan and two equals boi; you can also see the word "retard" not being removed many times... do a search if you want to see it for yourself. But in this one instance, someone did the right thing, and I appreciate it.
 
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KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
7,872
Quite honestly, anti-competitive moves like Intel's move here is meant to make the competitor cease production until it can catch up and has the competitive advantage. ... Intel knows it cannot win a fair fight, and it wants ALL of Apple's business. It's disgusting, and I would get away from Intel as fast as possible if I were Apple.

I hope Nvidia hasn't completely given up, but spin like this has to be made to assure investors that it knows exactly where it's going and it's not dependent upon something that may never happen.

They say they are getting out of the chipset business, but if you read closely, they definitely aren't getting out of the graphics card business. Their Tegra SoCs are pretty impressive and are powering the fastest supercomputer in the world right now.

What I don't understand is why Intel just doesn't enter into an agreement with NVidia to design its integrated graphics for the Core i series. If the best "Sandy Bridge" can do is equal the 9400m from 2008 that doesn't speak much to Intel's ability to build a GPU. Perhaps if AMD/ATI were more of a threat they'd do so.

Apple has about 10-11% of the US market and about 5% of the global PC market. I'm not sure what leverage that gives them with Intel. Obviously, their continued use of the Core 2 Duo in 4 major product lines is a slap in the face, and a public switch to AMD would be major news given Apple's oversized "mind share" in the US, but whether it's enough to force Intel to bargain with it remains to be seen.
 

gwsat

macrumors 68000
Apr 12, 2008
1,920
0
Tulsa
I have been banned for calling someone a "onetwo" where one equals fan and two equals boi, yet I have seen it over 10,000 times on these forums with no banning, and you can see it too. Just go to google and search the domain macrumors.com, for the different uses of "onetwo" where one equals fan and two equals boi; you can also see the word "retard" not being removed many times... do a search if you want to see it for yourself. But in this one instance, someone did the right thing, and I appreciate it.
I give the moderators here generally high marks for their willingness to remove posts that are obviously offensive. Have no idea whether they banned the fellow who posted the now removed communication that called us "retards" but it wouldn't have been a bad idea.

That said, I thought the mods used uncharacteristically bad judgment when they pandered to someone who insisted he was offended by your use of the term you described in the portion of your post I have quoted above and suspended you for several days. From the many PMs you received from other MacRumors members after you were you were banned, I know you understand that a lot of us thought you had been badly treated.

Back to the subject at hand for a moment. Inevitably anticompetitive behavior by any would be monopolist hurts not only its competitors but consumers, too. I love my new MBA, its obsolescent C2D processor notwithstanding but still fantasize about what the new MBA might have been if Intel had allowed NVIDIA to design an integrated GPU for Intel's i series CPUs. Wow, just wow!
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
7,872
Back to the subject at hand for a moment. Inevitably anticompetitive behavior by any would be monopolist hurts not only its competitors but consumers, too. I love my new MBA, its obsolescent C2D processor notwithstanding but still fantasize about what the new MBA might have been if Intel had allowed NVIDIA to design an integrated GPU for Intel's i series CPUs. Wow, just wow!

However, if Intel suddenly relented, I'm sure the conspiracy theorists would be claiming Apple always had it in mind to release a Core i3/i5-equipped MacBook Air in mid-2011 with advanced graphics to get all of us to upgrade again.

I must admit I'm not thrilled that the MacBook Air I just bought has the same generation of processor (and had I opted for the standard model, the same exact processor) as the one I bought 2 years ago. The other upgrades make it worthwhile, but there's a reason Core 2 Duo is going EOL in two months.
 

TSE

macrumors 68040
Jun 25, 2007
3,972
3,303
St. Paul, Minnesota
What I can honestly see is the new AMD chips coming to the MacBook Air, the Mac Mini, and the MacBook, and maybe even the 13" MacBook Pro while Intel + discrete graphics stay in the 15" MacBook Pro, 17" MacBook Pro, Mac Pro, and iMac lineups.

Intel's anticompetitive nature is hurting us as consumers and we should retaliate.

AMD's chips are becoming more and more competitive. I read somewhere on Notebookreview.com that the new AMD chips designed for netbooks should roughly give 9 hours of realistic battery life for a 6-cell netbook while crushing Atom performance in both the CPU and GPU.

The GPU has become more and more important in everyday computers since hardware acceleration has come to fruition, and I doubt many people will notice the loss of CPU performance from the Intel to AMD switch. What they WILL notice however is a gain in battery life, fantastic GPU performance, and most likely a price drop.
 

Kenrik

macrumors 6502
Dec 21, 2004
332
49
Next refresh Apple is going to speedbump the Core 2 and be done with it.

11inch 1.4 > 1.6 $999
13 inch 1.8 > 2.1 $1299

Those of you waiting for the i7LM... well I bet you're still waiting for your Powerbook G5.

Apple has a history of letting hardware languish if it does not meet their requirements. They will hold onto "Core 2 - 320m" if they can't get a better GPU in the machine.

Intel IGP is a no go..
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
7,872
Next refresh Apple is going to speedbump the Core 2 and be done with it.

11inch 1.4 > 1.6 $999
13 inch 1.8 > 2.1 $1299

Apple has a history of letting hardware languish if it does not meet their requirements. They will hold onto "Core 2 - 320m" if they can't get a better GPU in the machine.

Intel IGP is a no go..

The only problem is that Intel isn't going to manufacture the Core 2 Duo after the end of the year. Unless Apple is planning to order a huge stockpile of Core 2 Duo processors to last through another refresh (which I don't see happening), it will eventually need to switch over to another processor class. It seems like they have a hit on their hands with the MacBook Air. I doubt they would just drop it or let it languish.

Atom seems out of the question (Steve Jobs hasn't officially changed his position on "netbooks"). AMD is a possibility, but I can't see them going with AMD until and unless the processor capabilities match the power and TDP of the Core 2 Duo. If Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge provide adequate GPU performance, then Core i3/i5/i7m are possibilities.
 

gwsat

macrumors 68000
Apr 12, 2008
1,920
0
Tulsa
Apple has a history of letting hardware languish if it does not meet their requirements. They will hold onto "Core 2 - 320m" if they can't get a better GPU in the machine.

Intel IGP is a no go..
As a consequence of Apple's long held policy of sticking with older hardware when newer gear wouldn't work as well for them, I agree that Apple will never incorporate Intel's own woefully integrated GPU as the sole processor in any Macbook. The only reason the Intel integrated GPU is in the 15 and 17 inch MBP's is that it is merely an adjunct to the excellent NVIDIA discrete 330M GPU. Of course, that's not an option with any of the 13 inch or smaller Macbook line; there is not enough room in their cases for a discrete GPU.
 

Hellhammer

Moderator emeritus
Dec 10, 2008
22,164
582
Finland
Spin and games back and forth. Nvidia said it was giving up on chipsets right when Intel made the move, but Apple released several Macs with a new Nvidia GPU and chipset. The bottom line is investors shouldn't count on Nvidia making more chipsets for Apple. However, if you tell me Nvidia doesn't want to provide chipsets for these four Macs, I will tell you you're full of it.

Now it seems to be official. nVidia tried their luck in court but looks like it ended up being too expensive.

Remember that nVidia EOLed ALL their chipsets, not just the ones with IGP. This includes chipsets for AMD as well and AFAIK nVidia doesn't have similar licensing issues with AMD. Sure nVidia chipsets weren't that popular anymore but still.

Licensing issues may not be the only reason either. SLI was hacked earlier this year and it now works on almost any motherboard. Before it was limited to nVidia chipsets (+ models with NF200 chip in LGA 1366).

I agree that this is uncompetitive move from Intel and I would definitely like to see nVidia chipsets in the future. However, since Intel is moving more and more chipset components into the CPU, I don't think chipsets like 9400M or 320M would have had a bright future. Before those chipsets integrated three chips (Northbridge, Southbridge and GPU) into one but now they could only integrate two (PCH and GPU), plus IGP is kinda irrelevant for some, if not most computers because CPUs come with the not-so-great-but-still-sufficient-for-basic-computing Intel IGP. Other manufacturers have put discrete GPUs to their higher-end products. And sooner than later Intel will integrate PCH to the CPU. That would eliminate the need for 3rd party chipsets.

Of course there would still be some interest towards those chipsets, especially from Apple but the need for chipsets like those isn't as big as it was with earlier chipsets.

Intel knows their IGP is bullcrap so you're right about the cease production thing. Force competitors out of the market to get more time to develop your own products. SB IGP will be a nice step but it's still way behind nVidia. Ivy Bridge will twice as much shaders as SB so that's some progress again. Still not great compared to what nVidia made but it's something.

More details about Llano would be great. Zacate was okay but it's too low power for everything else but 11.6" MBA. Hopefully there will be 20-25W dual-core (or more, I wouldn't mind) version of Llano with decent CPU and GPU power. That would be great for MBA.
 

CaoCao

macrumors 6502a
Jul 27, 2010
783
2
My VAIO Z has an i5 540 CPU with Nvidia GeForce GT 330M switchable graphics. Why can't Apple implement something similar?

D you realize how incredibly thick the VAIO Z is? It tapers from 1" to 1.3", at its thinnest point it is thicker than the MBP 17" (0.98")
There's no space
macbook-air-teardown_ntAoz_54.jpg
 
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