School putting Firmware Passwords on students' property

[roadbloc]

Smart Move; Then the OP will be suspended or very least not able to use the network. The school has every right to guard it`s network and like as not the computer is tied to the school, be it paid or not.

Why suspended? Honestly, if that happened, I'd get a lawyer straight away. Suspended just because you don't want your own computer locked down is bang out of order.

Sure, the school has a right to do what it likes with its own network. But the OP has a right to do what he/she likes with his/her own hardware. If the consequence was simply being locked out the network then that would be no sweat to me. A mobile network dongle would suffice just fine. Or no internet connection whilst at school at all. It isn't as if everybody has a laptop. An internet connection isn't a must have when learning.

 

[Merode]

The school has every right to guard it`s network and like as not the computer is tied to the school, be it paid or not.

How is setting EFI password helping with it? I'm wordless - have you spent a minute thinking about what you're typing?

 

[mac8867]

I ignored this whole crap discussion the first time, but here you go.

This is NOT your computer to do with as you please. It is a required school tool, and yes, even though you paid for it. Just like any other school required equipment in college, they control the choice and use --- that's what your parents are paying them for! If you want to **** around with a computer, then go buy one for yourself.

You are paying an institution to educate you, they are trying to do that. If you can't live within the rules, then quit and strike out on your own, simple choice. THEN the computer is yours to do with as you please. That approach has worked for some moderately successful people in the past, like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates... so, maybe it works for you.

 

[sjinsjca]

How is setting EFI password helping with it? I'm wordless - have you spent a minute thinking about what you're typing?

Have you not spent a minute thinking about why an EFI password is a security enhancement?

Like some other folks here, my reaction to this thread was "Oh no, not this again."

That machine is no more or less yours than a school-issued uniform would be.

Frankly, I chafe under nonsensical and productivity-limiting corporate IT rules and regulations myself... there tend to be much better ways to do things rather than the self-dealing inanity and dreary conformity that IT managers seem to love to impose. So a big part of me sympathizes with you in this situation. The solution is to buy another computer with your own money and to use it for non-institutional-network purposes ...which is what you'll have to do when you're a big boy out there in the real world and are given a locked-down computer for your use.

You might object, "But I (or my parents) paid for this machine." True enough-- and even in the corporate world you kinda/sorta pay for your company-issued computer, in the sense that if they didn't have to buy you a computer they'd have more money to pay you. But it's beside the point: Even if you/your folks paid $2k less and you did not receive a computer from the school, you still would not be able to access the school's network resources without a school-issued and school-controlled machine. It is what it is.

Time to grow up. If you want to access the school's network resources, you know what the rules are. I hope you graduate and become a brilliantly successful businessman who imposes enlightened and freeing IT policies in your company.

 

[simonsi]

The school at which I study is confidential but I can tell you my MacBook Pro was BOUGHT OUTRIGHT and not loaned from the school in any way, shape, or form. Here's my plan:

A. Try to compromise with school staff
B. Not bring laptop to school / refuse
C. Contact Lawyer

Protection methods so far: EFI password, FileVault encryption, offsite backup, cloud backup, and complex password.

SICKB0Y, thank you for taking the time to reply with lengthy posts. I'm very grateful for your support.

One other thing: Once I was looking at the IT administrator's computer and I could see a list of computer serials / computer hostnames. This interface looked Apple-branded as well. Insurance or something? I can confirm it wasn't to do with a domain. He also mentioned something about a "system image being installed monthly".

Cool. Then you can take your original proof of purchase to Apple, they will remove the firmware password. Then you may be excluded from the network, or even school for not following policy.

This is what you posted in the other thread btw: "I am aware that the password can be reset by taking it to an Apple store with proof of purchase; however it was bought through the school even though it is my property so they may have proof of purchase.". You need to seperate paying fees to the school from ownership of the asset.

Do you want to study there or not?

 

[simonsi]

How is setting EFI password helping with it? I'm wordless - have you spent a minute thinking about what you're typing?

Whether the schools actions are going to achieve what they want is irrelevant, its their policy that counts and the OPs willingness to comply, most schools exclude those who wont comply. OP has probably been signed up to the policy by his application to attend so tbh further complaining is pointless (and some policy is needed by the OPs own admission), and likely to just see his studying made more difficult or impossible at that establishment.

 

[hallux]

If the computer was bought through the school and they maintain the proof of purchase, then you likely also have some terms of use agreement or acceptable use policy that was signed or acknowledged when receiving the computer. In there will be paragraphs on acceptable use of the device and what controls or security can/may be put in place on the device (or just that they CAN implement security controls at any time as they see fit to do so). As someone else said, while your parents may have paid for the laptop through additional fees or tuition costs making you THINK it belongs to you right now, while you're attending school there you're bound by THEIR policies for a computer they technically bought.

Company-issued computer and network resources work in the same way.

BYOD in corporations would be similar, when you agree to the terms for the BYOD program, there will be language in there about wiping of the device after termination or departure for another company.

 

[DJLC]

Not sure I'm contributing anything that hasn't already been said, but I'm the tech director at a school with a 1:1 MacBook program.

Seems to me that if the laptops are not owned by the school (and therefore are BYOD), the school IT staff has no right or reason to implement EFI passwords. I certainly have them implemented at my school; but the school owns the MacBooks, not the students.

In my experience, the only thing an IT admin would need to install on a student's BYOD MacBook would possibly be a profile containing wifi access information, proxy settings, and (if applicable) security certificates.

If the school is having issues with students mucking up their personally owned devices, that is not a school IT issue. It's not the school's IT dept.'s responsibility to correct these sorts of issues. If a student can't connect to wifi or log-in to an educational system, that's the IT dept.'s problem. If a student wiped their OS it's the student's responsibility. And if they're wiping it to avoid doing work, that's a classroom management / discipline issue.

If I were you? Set your own EFI password. If they question it, calmly and respectfully explain your position. As long as you're able to complete your schoolwork and connect to their wifi, I doubt they're going to give you much grief.

 

[duervo]

Summary of this story so far:

- School set EFI password. OP wants to circumvent it.

- OP told that they can't, unless they take it to an Apple Store with receipt

- OP knows this, but doesn't have receipt showing purchase of laptop, because it was part of the cost of tuition/supplies paid to the school by their parents. This gives more credence to the theory that the school maintains ownership of the system until OP is no longer a student there, as opposed to the theory that they bought it from their own hard-earned cash from Apple or an Apple Reseller.

- OP doesn't want to hear any responses stating anything other than suggestions on how to circumvent the EFI password put in place by school's IT Dept.

- Several responses from several people making one or more assumptions on the OPs situation (myself included), in support of, or against, the OP because the OP refuses to give more details than they already have.

- OP dual boots a couple other OS's to "work". Told to run them as virtual machines inside OS X. OP ignores the suggestion (or "didn't see it".)

- OP, in the end, is planning to:

1. Try to beg the school's IT Dept into removing the EFI password (and possibly any other "restrictions" they have placed on the laptop.)
   
2. Take their laptop home and keep it there from now on.
   
3. Go to a lawyer to tell on the big mean bully school.

- Oddly enough, this is very similar to the behavior that is usually displayed by children when they don't get their own way:

1. Whine and beg until the parent relents. If they don't relent, then go to STEP 2.
   
2. Take toys and run away to sulk somewhere until parent relents. If they don't relent, then go to STEP 3.
   
3. Get mad and stop talking to parents. Go to grandma or grandpa, and tell them what a big meanie their parents are being.

At this point, I'm going to agree with the couple that have already said that the OP is going to do whatever they want to in the end, and nothing anybody says here is going to convince them otherwise. Rather silly attitude to be having, TBH. There are much more important things to worry about in life, or be thankful for in life, than to cause such a ruckus about something so trivial.

 

[Queen6]

How is setting EFI password helping with it? I'm wordless - have you spent a minute thinking about what you're typing?

Have you? setting EFI password is a security feature, rendering the computer near useless if stolen - it`s not all about the OP`s integrity it`s about a schools IT policy, as has been stated by many the system will be tied to the school, hence the requirement.

No one`s rights are being infringed here, just a kid playing smart in the hope of a "magic response" so he/she can continue to keep doing what is very obviously outside the schools regulation.

This is just another "I forgot my password" thread, so sooner closed the better, "think about it"...

Q-6

 

[leman]

This entire story is completely wild to me, as what OP describes (if he is not withholding important evidence) is illegal in any civilised democratic form of the law that I am aware of. Then again, I know nothing about laws in HK so I can't contribute anything helpful to this topic. Nor can anyone else who is not a lawyer btw.

However, I am very shaken by position taken by mac8867 and some others. I don't understand how an oppressive environment that violates the personal property right and forces (education-wise) irrelevant things on the students is supposed to educate young people and turn them into productive members of the society. But then again, there are people that seriously think that it's OK for a policeman to taser a kid for refusing to go to school, so maybe I'm just too european

 

[duervo]

However, I am very shaken by position taken by mac8867 and some others. I don't understand how an oppressive environment that violates the personal property right and forces (education-wise) irrelevant things on the students is supposed to educate young people and turn them into productive members of the society. But then again, there are people that seriously think that it's OK for a policeman to taser a kid for refusing to go to school, so maybe I'm just too european

Nah ... The OP has left too much info out, and from the little bits that they have let slip, it's plain (to me anyway) that they don't "own" laptop yet. It's most likely still the school's property until they stop attending.

There's more to the story than what the OP has admitted, and don't expect to get anymore details, because it will be counter-productive towards them achieving their goal.

Personally, I agree with those that have stated that this thread should be locked/closed at this point. OP has their answer, from both sides of the fence. Time to let it rest.

 

[Cryosim]

Reply

Summary of this story so far:

- School set EFI password. OP wants to circumvent it.

The EFI password set is my password. The school have not yet set one because of this reason. They are not telling us that they're putting the passwords on our computers. Somebody found it out when they tried to boot into single-user mode.

There was no ToS I signed when I joined the school; just a simple "I will use the Internet the way I should" policy. That policy had NOTHING in it about computers. I will check with my parents to see if I actually do have the proof of purchase.

Let me make it clear to you: I own this laptop outright (legally). It was bought through the school, no hidden fees or discounts. I have compared the pricing from the school bills to one of a MacBook Pro online; they were exactly the same. I have asked on a "lawyer forum" about Hong Kong law and they said I own the laptop.

I have my answer; moderators: requesting lock, please.

 

[simonsi]

"I will check with my parents to see if I actually do have the proof of purchase"

"I own this laptop outright (legally)."

"It was bought through the school, no hidden fees or discounts."

Do you not understand that these statements contradict each other and which is right relies on other documentation that likely you haven't shown to anyone you have asked the question of on any forum.

You can phrase any question to a forum on the internet in a way that you will get the answer you want, it still has no legal standing.

 

[Merode]

Ok, I'm going to waste more time just to clarify.

School admins have had security breaches in the past (info from OP's other thread). They are probably clueless about how it's been done and don't know how to patch their infrastructure up so they force all students to submit their notebooks for monthly OS reinstallation and probably inspection. EFI password is presumably suppoused to circumvent possible reinstallation of OS by user.

Where I live that's illegal because no set of rules or organization policy can break or limit rights granted by Constitution and law. In such case the policy is illegal and nobody has to worry about it. If school will do something about it (expell student etc.) it ends up in court.

Where on earth is it legal to meddle with anybody's PERSONAL (as much as letters etc) belongings to limit access to them? Without any proof of violating rules to start with.

Admins should make their networks secure without accessing user's computers. There are easy ways to identify people messing with organization's infrastructure. If notebook gets stolen students report it and admin turns off account's access to network. Students shouldn't have priviliges within the network to damage it and even then there should be backups.

They simply prefer to scare people and violate their rights. For me it's step too far.

Of course, OP is losing nothing if he's not going to violate rules anyway. He could probably hand them his notebook and everything would be fine. It's just about the rules - you let them meddle with your rights a little, next time they will be more blunt.

 

[simonsi]

Ok, I'm going to waste more time just to clarify.....

But all irrelevant if it isn't his personal property right?

That is the crux of it, until that is established it isn't a personal rights issue, indeed if it is held to be the school's property then his unwillingness to hand over their property to them is the wrong being done.

 

[blueroom]

This is why schools are moving to Chromebooks.

 

[SlCKB0Y]

You should run those operating systems in virtual machines without dual booting.

That is probably not an option. If he does give in and the school puts a firmware password on there it is then unlikely that the student will be able to install whatever software they like. That basically negates the reason for locking down the machine in the first place.

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there tend to be much better ways to do things rather than the self-dealing inanity and dreary conformity that IT managers seem to love to impose.

This is pretty much why desktop/workstation support departments are the absolute anus of IT careers. The lowest of the low.

 

[Merode]

But all irrelevant if it isn't his personal property right?

That is the crux of it, until that is established it isn't a personal rights issue, indeed if it is held to be the school's property then his unwillingness to hand over their property to them is the wrong being done.

I agree, if this notebook is school's property then OP isn't right and they can do whatever they want with it.

 

[Cryosim]

I agree, if this notebook is school's property then OP isn't right and they can do whatever they want with it.

I have already stated that IT IS MY PROPERTY.

 

[simonsi]

I have already stated that IT IS MY PROPERTY.

Sure but you also stated that the school actually purchased them so had proof of purchase.

What now makes you so sure that title has passed to you?

 

[maflynn]

I have already stated that IT IS MY PROPERTY.

It may be yours but if the school can institute any policy it chooses regarding what it lets on its network. Leave the computer at home and that solves the problem.

You can also as I mentioned get a cheap machine that you can notes, or get a tablet.

 

[cairene2011]

I'm not sure if I have understood all of this correctly, but to me it sounds like the computer is going to be 100% the OP's property when he finishes school. I get the school's point, if they want to put an EFI password on it now while the laptop is the school's property.

What I also understand is the OP, who has still paid for this laptop (even if legally it's not 100% his yet), and who doesn't want to graduate from this school and receive his laptop with some EFI password on it that he can never change again. He may have signed up for the school's terms and conditions WHILE he is at school, but this EFI password clearly would affect his computer for the rest of its life, even long after the OP has graduated.

That's not fair and doesn't sound legal either. Yes, the school has probably the right to do with the machine whatever they want as long as the OP attends/uses their network, but after his graduation his machine should be 100% his. But then it will still have the school's EFI password on it and could well be unusable if the OP needs to reinstall the OS for whatever reason.

I would tell the school that in this case you want out of the contract, since they are breaking it if they claimed in it the students would have 100% ownership of the machines after graduation. With an EFI password, that's clearly not true.

You will return the laptop, they reimburse you for the laptop and then are free to put on whatever password they want. I'm sure there must be stationary school computers you can use for assignments at school? Even in my tiny all girls Austrian village school we had a PC in every classroom and several computer labs. I can't imagine the infrastructure to be worse in a technological metropolis like Hongkong.

With the reimbursed money, you and your parents can then go ahead and buy a Mac directly from Apple, never bring it to school and use it as your private property.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

I've read this with interest....

.... and some amusment for a few days now. Thought I might join in.

Just because you buy a computer through your school does not make it theirs this is just a scheme to get all the students what they need with education discount and provide a service to them. This is what the OP is saying and seems reasonable.

Excluding his laptop from the school network without the EFI password is also their perogative and should that be the case then the OP has a choice to make: accept it and not be able to use the laptop for his work, or don't and not use it at school.

That is the crux of the matter laid out, lawyers talking to the school etc etc etc is all bull. Basically he has a choice to make that he doesn't want to and hopefully it'll be one of his better learning experiences, as that is life....

 

[SlCKB0Y]

Summary of this story so far:

- School set EFI password. OP wants to circumvent it.

No, you can't read, nor can the people who up-voted this. The school intends to set an EFI password. The OP doesn't want them to and has set his own.

Your whole post was based on this one faulty premise and is completely invalid.

Thanks for trying though!

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Then again, I know nothing about laws in HK so I can't contribute anything helpful to this topic.

My guess is that individual rights haven't been as high on the agenda since the British left...

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Do you not understand that these statements contradict each other

No, they don't necessarily contradict each.

possession of proof of purchase does not mean ownership. Alternatively you can own something without possessing proof of purchase.

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But all irrelevant if it isn't his personal property right?

So in your country people are guilty before proven innocent I take it? He has to prove that he is not lying? Great "country" you have there.

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Sure but you also stated that the school actually purchased them so had proof of purchase.

What now makes you so sure that title has passed to you?

You're right, I sold my Macbook Pro a few weeks ago to some random on Gumtree and I still have the receipt. Can you go and break the bad news to him that I still own it?

Bottom line is that if he paid for it, he owns it. The school can refuse him access to its network, but he owns it.

What we're witnessing here is the creep of totalitarianism from the mainland into the schools of Hong Kong... and you seem to actually be supporting that idea. Have you been to mainland China? I have, a number of times, ands its not a place I want to model my country after.