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So some investors are getting nervous, going to loose the mansion, and yacht, and other properties :D

Its all a show, nothing more than that, how about publicizing the names and or corporations of the mongrels raising the stink to the SEC?

I am invested in Apple. I will not disclose my financial situation, but I am unemployed currently, live with my parents, and (not suprisingly) do not own a yacht. You do need money to buy stock but not a lot! You could become a shareholder of Apple today for $81 (plus about $10 for the exchange).
 
This and other similar comments completely miss the point, which is that Apple tried to pretend that Steve's ability to run the company was not of material interest to investors. Obviously it is.

Which statements from Apple can you point to that indicate that Steve's involvement in the company is not important? That's obviously absurd, and I don't think Apple actually pretended any such thing.

I've only seen statements about his health being a private matter--which does NOT indicate his involvement is unimportant. It's the legal and common sense truth, in fact.

Does that privacy have limits? Maybe so--in which case, if you think Apple and/or Steve were being deceptive on January 5 (and prior), you STILL have to assume that Steve's condition was KNOWN to be heading for a (temporary) departure.

When in fact, the need for this time off COULD very plausibly be recent news, not something that was concealed.
 
What was so important during those 9 days that people think it would have been worth the smokescreen?

You have to wonder. Did Steve lie on the 5th, sell a bunch of stock, and then admit what he knew all along, that he was about to leave the company (except for major decisions, that is) until summer?

A medical change in those 9 days is the kind of thing that happens every day. Defrauding investors does too... but where's the money trail?

On the other hand, manipulating these stories in the press DOES have a money trail in many cases...

(Sorry for the double-post, guess I thought I was AFK longer than I was.)
 
Ah yes, the same bunch of coolaid drinkers saying how Steve and the board were completely being honest as over a year's time he wastes away to nothing due to a "simple hormone problem" and then a week later walks away from being CEO of a multibillion dollar company.

I told you then, and I'll say it again, something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Investors have been misled and whether YOU think it's smart or not to invest in apple the point is that as an investor I have the right to have transparency and not be misled by the very body that has a fiduciary responsibility to ME (and all other shareholders), not to Mr. Jobs privacy rights.

Go ahead, claim there is no paper trail. Let's meet back here in a few months and we'll see who is right and who is wrong.
 
Or 4) Steve WAS working with his doctors, and everything legally required about his private life was revealed (i.e. not much). But then the doctors learned more about his situation as time went along. Medicine is not always simple.

Or 5) Steve WAS working with his doctors, but his condition changed over time, becoming more complex. (He once did not require time off, but now he does.)

Either way, the medical situation COULD have changed over time. That seems highly plausible, and you've overlooked that possibility, focusing only on dishonesty--dishonesty without a clear motive.

So of course if laws might have been broken, that needs to be investigated. But those who seem so certain they HAVE been seem to have a narrow view of all that might have been going on.

Your numbers 4 and 5 don't really work. That something was wrong last year was obvious to all. A cancer patient who is losing weight is going to be spending time with his doctors finding out why. That person's condition cannot be described as "fine" especially when it's so clear that it is not. Beyond that, I'm not certain of anything. That's the point.

We also have to remember that Steve initially did not have his pancreatic cancer treated medically. He tried at first to deal with it homeopathically. He also supposedly withheld some of this information from the Board. This raises questions in my mind about what he's been doing lately to address his health issues.

It's his health. Health is a private issue.

No, not entirely. If that was the case, then the SEC would not be investigating.
 
And if you invest based upon the presence of a single person who could get hit by a car, you're an idiot.

By your definition every apple shareholder is an idiot. You see, whether -I- believe that AAPL has good fundamentals or not, the -MARKET- clearly has shown on multiple occasions that in the real world what happens to SJ will markedly affect share price.

Therefore whether YOU think that those people dumping shares right and left after bad SJ health news are idiots or not is irrelevent to those of us that actually hold shares because we get hammered.

Therefore we have a right to know and not be misled by the board, as any such news will be acted on by a large number of traders, whether you and I (who I think actually hold similar views on the long term health of the company) think so or not.

Ultimately the shareholder should be able to trade on truthful information, and a board and CEO that misleads the public should have the hammer put down on them hard.
 
Go ahead, claim there is no paper trail. Let's meet back here in a few months and we'll see who is right and who is wrong.

Please. Self-righteous posturing know-it-alls never concede when they're proven wrong. Jobs could come out and give every last page of paperwork showing what he learned about his condition before the 5th and after the 5th, and if you're wrong (note that I say IF, because I don't claim any special knowledge about this matter), you'll just insist they're still lying and covering it up.

There is and has never been ANY legitimate, sane reason to believe that Steve Jobs has been lying about his health. He and his doctors may have been wrong about it and learned more details about what was going on. His condition may have worsened. But his statements — vague though they may have been — have NEVER been "contradictory," as this article states.

I'm sorry your Apple stock lost a ton of money, but get over yourself. You don't know one real thing more than anyone else here.
 
Which statements from Apple can you point to that indicate that Steve's involvement in the company is not important? That's obviously absurd, and I don't think Apple actually pretended any such thing.

I've only seen statements about his health being a private matter--which does NOT indicate his involvement is unimportant. It's the legal and common sense truth, in fact.

Does that privacy have limits? Maybe so--in which case, if you think Apple and/or Steve were being deceptive on January 5 (and prior), you STILL have to assume that Steve's condition was KNOWN to be heading for a (temporary) departure.

When in fact, the need for this time off COULD very plausibly be recent news, not something that was concealed.

I don't assume anything. The sequence of events should be investigated by the SEC in order to determine if anything of material importance to investors was concealed either by Steve or the Board.
 
The word "health" keeps being brought up as the main issue here, but really it isn't.

What the SEC investigation really concerns is that Apple's stock price was fluctuating drastically over an issue that at best Apple provided little information on and at worst Apple provided completely conflicting information on.

Now, whether or not the information they provided was all they were aware of, and whether or not it was being relayed to investors as they received it is what's of interest here.

The fact that this information happens to concern the CEO's health is just an aside. What's important is that Apple's share price was moving and whether or not the company did what they needed to protect their shareholders.

(And at this point, no one besides a few people at Apple know the answer to that.)
 
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but...

The first time Jobs found out he had cancer, the Apple board of directors knew... but said nothing for nine months. (Until after his operation.) This did not make them look good at all.

Last summer, Apple said Jobs was just suffering from a common ailment (made you think it was the flu or something). Then it was hormones, then it was worse.

All that would be fine, except the timing of each update was just before something important, which for better or worse, looks suspicious.
 
There's an excellent article just posted on CNBC about this which prints a letter from Harvey Pitt (former SEC chairman) commenting on things.

In it, he makes a very clear case for why this issue is important.

Here's the story:

One Take On The SEC Inquiry Into Apple Worth Reading

by Jim Goldman

When it comes to Appleand Steve Jobs' health disclosures, indeed any perceived cover-up, it all comes down to what was known, and when.

Easy questions to ask, but harder questions to answer.

With the Securities and Exchange Commission reportedly opening an inquiry into Apple amid those very questions, my colleague Bertha Coombs and I have been trying to shed some light on what grounds the SEC might, or might not, have to bring an action.

Bertha was in touch, via email, today with Harvey Pitt, the former chairman of the SEC (2001 - 2003), who now works for Kalorama Partners LLC in Washington, D.C.

She shared with me the email she received from Mr. Pitt this morning about these very issues, and his analysis of what's going on. His email, posted below, is worth a read.

"The question of Apple's disclosure is an intriguing one, and raises some serious issues," Pitt begins. He says that as a general rule, the SEC has not required companies to breach the personal privacy of senior executives. "As a result, people who have experienced heart attacks, strokes, or have alcohol problems or other medical adversity, are generally not under any obligation to disclose that, subject to certain caveats.

"The underlying assumption always is that if the senior executive has to give up his/her day-to-day duties for any appreciable period of time, appropriate and timely disclosure will be made. In addition, the rule always is that if a company or senior executive makes voluntary disclosure--as Jobs did about his health originally--that disclosure must be fair and accurate. If the normal rules apply--and I'll get to that in a moment--then Jobs and Apple might not have been under any obligation to make affirmative disclosure unless and until he was going to take a leave of absence, as he ultimately did."

This is a key point, and likely the rules under which Apple was operating. The threshold was always a simple one: either he can perform his duties as CEO or not.

Pitt continues: "Of course, once voluntary disclosure was made, Jobs and Apple had an obligation to get it right. There is at least a serious question whether Jobs did get it right. He initially downplayed the significance of his health issues, only to come back and announce that he was taking a leave of absence. Given Jobs' importance to Apple--which is atypical as far as most corporations go--his decision to take a leave of absence was surely material (and the stock market reflected that the moment it was announced). It is hard to believe that, in the short span of time between the initial announcement and Jobs' announcement of a leave of absence, his knowledge of his condition changed materially. It's not impossible, but it does seem improbable, and that's why the SEC is investigating, I suspect."

Possible, but not probable. A long-shot explanation is that Jobs was told one thing on Sunday, and then a week later, his doctors discovered something new. Again, not probable, but still an option. "Right" is a fuzzy thing when you're dealing with fast-moving, complex health issues. That may or not be the case here, but Apple and Jobs can certainly try to make that argument which may offer enough reasonable doubt to avoid any kind of action or prosecution. Another thing to consider: it's very possible that only a few people — if any — knew what the real status was, and that everyone else was sold a bill of goods. If there was a calculated effort to mislead, and I'm not saying there was, Apple's got some real problems. And that, presumably, is what the SEC will examine.

Pitt continues: "In the case of some companies, like Apple, where a CEO is so integrally intertwined with the fortunes of the Company, the general rule may not make any sense. Anything that could affect Jobs' ability to serve is something Apple would have been well advised to consider significant enough of which to make voluntary disclosure. Here, in response to the obvious physical changes in his appearance, they did make disclosure, but it seems as if they didn't get it right. If they knew or should have known it was more serious than he was allowing, they had an obligation to correct his less than accurate assessment."

"Well advised" to consider might be one thing, but legally compelled to do so is another. Further, if Jobs knew one thing, and released it, and then discovered it was something else, or the Board discovered it was something else more serious, they had an obligation to "correct his less than accurate assessment." With that follow-on release about those more "complex" health issues, some might argue that's exactly what Jobs did. Again, legal versus ethical.

Pitt didn't confirm any SEC inquiry and neither Apple nor the SEC is commenting. But Pitt's comments are useful as we all try to figure out what happened, and what happens next.
 
I don't assume anything. The sequence of events should be investigated by the SEC in order to determine if anything of material importance to investors was concealed either by Steve or the Board.

Me neither, and I agree--investigated answers are better than questions. Even if this is new territory for the law.

Your numbers 4 and 5 don't really work. That something was wrong last year was obvious to all. A cancer patient who is losing weight is going to be spending time with his doctors finding out why. That person's condition cannot be described as "fine" especially when it's so clear that it is not. Beyond that, I'm not certain of anything. That's the point.

We also have to remember that Steve initially did not have his pancreatic cancer treated medically. He tried at first to deal with it homeopathically. He also supposedly withheld some of this information from the Board. This raises questions in my mind about what he's been doing lately to address his health issues.

"Fine" last year could mean "treatable weight loss as is expected after this pancreas procedure." And yes, the weight loss was known to all of us.

And then at some point the doctors might decide there's more to it (maybe the same problem needing other treatments; maybe other problems). THAT is a change in the medical situation, which your other scenarios didn't account for. Not saying it's the case, just that it's very plausible: the seriousness of the situation MAY have increased over time.

All they may have known last year is, "things look fine now--but you never know." And if that's the case, thats' what we all knew without being told.
 
We don't know, which is the entire point. We know only that Steve started looking quite gaunt many months ago. Apple's complete response to the understandable questions about Steve's health raised at the time was that he was "fine." This opens up three possibilities, none of them very good from a disclosure point of view. Either (1) Steve was not working with his doctors at that time to determine the reason for his weight loss, or (2) he was, but was withholding this information from the Boards of Directors, or (3) he was telling the Board of Directors, but they were withholding this information from investors.

Hence, the SEC investigation and the specter of a shareholder lawsuit.

I want to know what business it is of the BoD what his health status is if he, and his doctors, believe him to be capable of performing his job's duties?

Does that privacy have limits? Maybe so--in which case, if you think Apple and/or Steve were being deceptive on January 5 (and prior), you STILL have to assume that Steve's condition was KNOWN to be heading for a (temporary) departure.

When in fact, the need for this time off COULD very plausibly be recent news, not something that was concealed.

A friend of ours had an blood issue pop up that became very dire a couple times. The treatments and diagnoses varied quite a bit over a few weeks' span. None of them prevented him from working, but if one had he could very easily have not known about it even a few days prior to finding that out.

Are we going to start requiring CEOs and company brass to provide full medical disclosures? How about their daily commute schedule so we can assess the risk of car accidents? All vacation itineraries?

Until Jobs and his doctor(s) decided that the Leave was necessary it was no one's business. If Apple knew about the leave and didn't disclose it, then yes, that would be withholding information, but in all likelihood I don't see anything here that would indicate that this was the case.

I don't have anything against the SEC investigating either, if for no other reason to kill all of the speculation that Apple somehow did something illegal.
 
...Until Jobs and his doctor(s) decided that the Leave was necessary it was no one's business. If Apple knew about the leave and didn't disclose it, then yes, that would be withholding information, but in all likelihood I don't see anything here that would indicate that this was the case.

No, as the Harvey Pitt letter I posted above points out, until Jobs decided to make public comments to Apple shareholders about his health it was no one's business.

Once he went on record saying something, it better have been as truthful as possible.
 
While there is wild conjecture, in that week between Jobs first statement and his second saying he was taking a leave he could have been better educated by his doctor about the seriousness of the condition.

Honestly, we can't tell what happened during that week (we can't even make a distinction as to the probability of what happened, but then again I'm not playing doctor on the internet). So I don't really see a problem with the investigation even though I do think most of the media is blowing this out of proportion.
 
Steve Job's health isn't like the health of any other employee at Apple though, simply because he is the face of the company. At the same time Job's health should be a private matter but when you have millions of dollars in investment money in a company that depend on one man, many will look at him as a company asset and will argue his health is of concern to investors.

If that is all the investigation is based on then I would think there is no problem - unless there is a law which says Steve Jobs is to be treated differently to any other employee in America then Apple lawers will shoot it down.

Nobody seems to have mentioned another possibility - and I don't mean this in a negative way - that Steve jobs was lying to himself.

How many people out there lie every day to themselves about their own health, even for the small stuff - how many smokers don't think they will get cancer, how many people ignore that tooth ache, how many people who drink to much don't think they are alcoholics.

You have someone who I think everyone agrees is a control freak, who has already been through a big scare, and again faces something he has no control over. Maybe he avoided going to doctors, buried himself in his work etc until it became to obvious for even him to ignore.

Ever tried to ask an alcoholic friend to do something about it? Imagine you are the board of Apple asking Steve jobs if he is OK, and he says 'Im fine, Im just tired.' He is still doing his job (as far as we know), and the company is going well - legally how much further could you push it without risking a lawsuit from Jobs himself about invading his privacy?

I understand some people feel they have been manipulated on the stock, so have the investigation and get it cleared - if they have done wrong then punish them, but if it finds nothing everyone who was hounding SJ, particularly some of the 'journalists' and 'doctors' who haven't even met him let alone treated him but still felt qualified to pass judgement and create fanciful stories over the last 2 weeks, should take at good hard look at themselves.
 
No, as the Harvey Pitt letter I posted above points out, until Jobs decided to make public comments to Apple shareholders about his health it was no one's business.

Once he went on record saying something, it better have been as truthful as possible.

So he went on record with what he knew on the 5th. We get down to what he knew when over the next 9 days. The only people that know this for sure, are Steve and his doctors. How do we know what Steve knew and when he knew it?

The SEC can investigate and I'm happy that they're actually doing some oversight, but somewhere in this we just have to take Steve's word for it.
 
The SEC can investigate and I'm happy that they're actually doing some oversight, but somewhere in this we just have to take Steve's word for it.

Any why in the world we we just do that?

The man misled the board initially for almost a YEAR as he tried natural treatments for freaking -=pancreatic cancer=-. I know there are the freaks out there that hate all things medical, but come ON man.

Why in the world would you trust him to now be 100% truthful? I think it's equally as likely that he is out eating pinenut oil because he is convinced that it will resolve the recurrence that he very likely is dealing with.

I believe Reagan said it best: Trust, but verify. Until we have a way to verify, I have no trust.
 
There's an excellent article just posted on CNBC about this which prints a letter from Harvey Pitt (former SEC chairman) commenting on things.

In it, he makes a very clear case for why this issue is important.

Here's the story:

We could end this entire thread with this post, because it says everything that needs to be said. But somehow I think that won't happen...
 
Any why in the world we we just do that?

Simple, Doctor patient confidentiality.

Unless Steve had some other confidant or some other written communication showing that he knew more about his situation and was not disclosing it, thus breaking the law, we don't have any other way to prove that he knew more than he said.

I'm all for investigating to make sure that nothing was intentionally withheld to manipulate the stock prices. Since no one has come forward with Steve dumping or shorting a bunch of Apple stock I don't see Steve's motives for withholding any information aside from his own personal denial or desire to break any bad news to his family before the public releases, neither of which should be considered illegal.

I just don't see why it's so hard for some people to believe that more medical information was gleaned within a week prompting the leave.
 
There is no harm in the SEC investigating, when there are odd/unusual occurances they investigate to make sure everything is/was above board. As noted some large shareholders may have requested a review.

If AAPL was not a listed company then this would not be happening. Unfortunately as they are a listed company and Steve Jobs is an influential member of the executive staff etc etc anything major that happens to him/with him that influences his ability to work and function as Apple CEO etc falls under Material information as this influences whether or not people would invest in the company.

I am not necessarily in complete agreement with this but I understand and appreciate why this is happening. The same would happen for other influential people like Michael Dell, Steve Ballmer (or Bill Gates if he was still there), Larry Ellison etc etc. The more influence one person has, or appears to have in the running of a listed company the more "material" their health and well being becomes.

Of course, if Apple was more open and forthcoming to investors about their succession plan for Steve Jobs (he will retire one day) the less concern the markets would have about Steve, they might still be concerned but not at the same level.
 
Any why in the world we we just do that?

The man misled the board initially for almost a YEAR as he tried natural treatments for freaking -=pancreatic cancer=-. I know there are the freaks out there that hate all things medical, but come ON man.

Why in the world would you trust him to now be 100% truthful? I think it's equally as likely that he is out eating pinenut oil because he is convinced that it will resolve the recurrence that he very likely is dealing with.

I believe Reagan said it best: Trust, but verify. Until we have a way to verify, I have no trust.

To be fair this is not the form of pancreatic cancer that you are thinking of (the kind that kills within months).
 
i don't see how they would have a case here. it's a health issue, which can change over time.

Actually that is part of the problem, when he did the Conference last year and was looking "sick" and it was said to be nothing though it was enough to make a lot of people make comment, now we have progressed to needing a 6 month sabatical. Obviously from Point A (conference) to Point B (taking time off) we have about 6 months where no apparent improvement was made in which case Apple at the board level should have been preparing for the scenario of time off.

If Jobs had had a heart attack (wasnt that a rumour too?) it would be different, although the board would be wanting to make a statement (as it would be hard to hide this from the public) there would no SEC inquiries as a heart attack is very sudden and you can be 100% one day and in hospital the next.
 
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