Security Experts Wary as 1Password Subscriptions Push Users to Cloud-Based Vaults

[jasnw]

I agree with other posts that it's understandable, given their generous upgrade policies, that they are finding a need to up the income stream in order to keep their product current and secure. I think they're proposed fee is a bit on the high side, but they do need to have a steady income. However, this forcing everyone to the cloud is BS. I'm less concerned about security of Agile's cloud solution (not unconcerned, just less than others who have posted), I am concerned about access. How often do we see cloud services go off-line, and how often do we find ourselves, for whatever reason, unable to get to the Internet? Passwords are important, and I want mine accessible at any time. Bottom line to Agile is go ahead and come up with a way to maintain an income stream but (1) keep the greed motive down, and (2) keep local vaults as they are.

 

[Thunderhawks]

Nothing beats local storage for sensitive info.

Yes, even then obviously risks, but at least not millions of people effected in one swipe when hackers get info.

I wish we could show the subscription companies our crosses and garlic necklaces we wear against their vampire behavior

 

[X--X]

They make their money from selling the mobile app and it doesn't matter where they're based, they don't have a copy of your passwords

How do know it's not transmitted, is the app open source?

It's a matter of trust in the company.

 

[itguy06]

Why are so many people mad and disappointed that 1Password is providing a subscription for those who are interested? If one isn't interested, one can continue to use 1Password like it has been offered for years.

Until the OS changes, Safari, Chrome, Firefox, etc changes and you need a new version.... Then you are screwed. Better to ditch the software and go to something that you are more comfortable with.

 

[throAU]

This is not correct because you can login to their website without any plugin installed in your browser and unlock your vault. So at some point down the chain the password is used to encrypt the vault. Whether that means your password is used to retrieve something from their site database or not - All of this could be stolen in a breach and then the cracking starts.

you've heard of javascript, yeah?

 

[horsebattery]

This is not correct because you can login to their website without any plugin installed in your browser and unlock your vault. So at some point down the chain the password is used to encrypt the vault. Whether that means your password is used to retrieve something from their site database or not - All of this could be stolen in a breach and then the cracking starts.

You're still not understanding what the secret key is for - the decryption happens client-side. The encrypted database blob isn't being decrypted server-side - otherwise they can't claim that the secret key is never transmitted.

Edit: Coincidentally, this is the issue that Apple had with "encrypted" iCloud backups a while ago (I don't recall if this is still the case), where user data is encrypted with server-side keys, therefore Apple would be able to decrypt a user's backups (e.g. for government requests). This isn't the case for encrypted iTunes backups, for a similar reason as with the 1Password case.

 

[ZZ9pluralZalpha]

Well, there goes another once-favored product. Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

 

[stulaw11]

i agree with your post except for the bit regarding banking details and password management.

whilst nothing is perfect, i suggest that using strong unique, fully random passwords for your financial stuff is essential. and anything you can remember does not meet those criteria. so you need to store it somewhere.

the vault is a way better option than post-it notes or paper that can far more easily be stolen, lost, destroyed, etc.

I use a complex password with capital letters, small letters, numbers and symbols. It would EXTREMELY hard just to guess out of however many (100+ million?) combinations.

Most big banks are also 2FA now. Hell it's hard enough trying to log into a new computer it doesnt recognize with password, then text codes, and security questions, etc.

It'd be very hard with 2FA requiring a code via text when you can remote wipe your device now a days. The password itself would be meaningless on a device the bank doesnt recognize and without the 2nd factor.

 

[ignatius345]

OK, please nobody bite my head off here, because I'm going to admit to something stupid: I have a subscription-based 1Password account and didn't realize all my passwords were stored on the cloud. I'm using the client software on MacOS and iOS, and had assumed (stupidly) that it was just doing an encrypted sync between the apps. Bone-headed move not to investigate it all more carefully when I set it up.

Now I know better. I realize now that I can log in via their web interface and see all my passwords. That doesn't feel safe!

I'd like to keep using 1Password because it works very well, but I'm not sure how to approach it all at this point -- do I buy the standalone apps and sync them through Dropbox or iCloud? Are those really any more secure?

I guess this stuff is hard because we all want the security of synced passwords everywhere, but obviously want to keep them locked down.

edit: I see now that there is a vault called "Primary" which sits separate from my "Families"-based vault. If I move an item into that Primary vault, it syncs to my other devices, but is not viewable through the web interface. Is this any more secure at all? Is it no longer stored in the cloud? The distinction between "synced" and "hosted" is a little confusing here...

 

[Quu]

How do know it's not transmitted, is the app open source?

It's a matter of trust in the company.

Just view its nonexistent network traffic.

you've heard of javascript, yeah?

Of course I have heard of Javascript, but do you understand that you can go to their website and put in your account password and open your vault with no plugin installed in the browser or anything.

Your password is used in some manner to open the vault. Hackers who get your vault will use the exact same method to open your vault, brute forcing your password. Yes it is done in Javascript (meaning your encrypted vault is transferred to your browser where the Javascript then works on decrypting it, using your password) but again your password is the only thing you need to open the vault, no other key is used but the password you supply and that is what will get brute forced.

 

[itguy06]

Don't you think free is a strange business model?

Plus, the company is located in India, which has very sporadic privacy laws and those are not even actually enforced.

No. The desktop version is the one that is free. The mobile versions are the ones that charge. They are hoping that you are mobile and want them. I paid for them all - it's a fine piece of software.

I don't care where the developers are - they don't have a copy of my password file.

 

[Supermallet]

Yes. If I create a new password on the go with my Macbook, it syncs to my phone (Wifi) - I have it on that machine or that phone, where I need it at that moment, and as soon as I come home it syncs to my desktop Mac Pro, where I can use it as well.

All locally stored without putting my whole life on someone else's server.

And that is what AgileBits is destroying now.

That is a good point, automatic sync to all devices likely isn't as much of an issue as you would generally only need the password on the device you created it on until you can get home to sync.

 

[3460169]

Wow, this new is disheartening. Options are great, so long as they remain options.

I felt the need to necro an old thread I had with 1P Support. Curious what their reply will be, if any.

 

[netnothing]

No. The desktop version is the one that is free. The mobile versions are the ones that charge. They are hoping that you are mobile and want them. I paid for them all - it's a fine piece of software.

I don't care where the developers are - they don't have a copy of my password file.

Curious - how are you syncing between the desktop and mobile versions of Enpass? Don't you have to use a cloud service?

Also the Enpass apps look interesting.....it's just the pricing that worries me. How can a company survive when all they are getting from a single user is $9.99 and that user gets a lifetime license?!?

 

[avanpelt]

OK, please nobody bite my head off here, because I'm going to admit to something stupid: I have a subscription-based 1Password account and didn't realize all my passwords were stored on the cloud. I'm using the client software on MacOS and iOS, and had assumed (stupidly) that it was just doing an encrypted sync between the apps. Bone-headed move not to investigate it all more carefully when I set it up.

Now I know better. I realize now that I can log in via their web interface and see all my passwords. That doesn't feel safe!

I'd like to keep using 1Password because it works very well, but I'm not sure how to approach it all at this point -- do I buy the standalone apps and sync them through Dropbox or iCloud? Are those really any more secure?

I guess this stuff is hard because we all want the security of synced passwords everywhere, but obviously want to keep them locked down.

It doesn't particularly matter whether you're storing your 1Password vault on Dropbox, iCloud, or 1Password's server. The vault is encrypted. The only way the vault can be decrypted and its contents displayed is for someone to enter the "Master Password" for the vault.

You could put your vault on a flash drive and hand it to a stranger on the street. The only way they would be able to view the contents of the vault is if they had the 1Password software and were able to guess your Master Password and thus decrypt the vault's contents. For this reason, your 1Password Master Password should be one that is easy for you to remember but damn near impossible for anyone else to guess or brute force.

 

[TheMacAvenger]

+1. And they will get hacked. This isn't a recipe site, it's a freakin' password repository. Where would you place your hacking efforts?

What would hackers get if they were successful in breaching the 1password.com servers? My understanding from the AgileBits white paper is, AES-256-encrypted ciphertext. AgileBits say users' decryption keys are never transmitted to their servers, nor the secrets (master password) that could be used to derive those keys.

I've already mentioned this once in another response here, but that's the entire point of offering $100K for anyone to be able to steal and decrypt a volume of bad poetry. Nobody's claimed it yet.

 

[ignatius345]

I've already mentioned this once in another response here, but that's the entire point of offering $100K for anyone to be able to steal and decrypt a volume of bad poetry. Nobody's claimed it yet.

If (and I'm not arguing there is one), but IF someone had an exploit to get into 1Password accounts, I'd guess it would be worth far more than $100K.

 

[horsebattery]

Of course I have heard of Javascript, but do you understand that you can go to their website and put in your account password and open your vault with no plugin installed in the browser or anything.

Your password is used in some manner to open the vault. Hackers who get your vault will use the exact same method to open your vault, brute forcing your password. Yes it is done in Javascript (meaning your encrypted vault is transferred to your browser where the Javascript then works on decrypting it, using your password) but again your password is the only thing you need to open the vault, no other key is used but the password you supply and that is what will get brute forced.

You're digging deeper into a rabbit hole. If you attempt to consider every potential vulnerability/attack surface, then when will this end - at the hardware level? I keep reiterating the same idea throughout this entire thread, but the goal of having perfect security vs. providing users with good security isn't a good mindset to have because the trade-offs would otherwise be a net negative for the users.

 

[JetTester]

Are you sure? https://blog.agilebits.com/2017/06/20/introducing-1password-6-6-for-windows/

The latest version does not support local vaults!

To be more precise, I have the latest purchased version, which updated itself this week, not the latest cloud-based version.

 

[X--X]

that's the entire point of offering $100K for anyone to be able to steal and decrypt a volume of bad poetry. Nobody's claimed it yet.

Are you actually serious? 100.000 dollars? You think any professional criminal hacker, would give that away for that low amount of money. That is hilarious. Hilarious!

Breaking into 1Password.com is worth millions of dollars if you sell it on the black market or to some government.

And there is a chance that (like in the case of the Yahoo hack) customers and the public would find out many years later.

 

[Rigby]

Of course I have heard of Javascript, but do you understand that you can go to their website and put in your account password and open your vault with no plugin installed in the browser or anything.

It is possible to implement this without ever transmitting credentials to their server. Basically, you perform the key derivation and de-/encryption functions through a Javascript program running in your browser. There are a number of well-established Javascript crypto libraries out there.

That said, this approach has serious weaknesses:

- Your browser loads the Javascript code from the web site every time you use it. This means that the code can be replaced at any time without you having any way to tell. So either the company or someone who has hacked the website could potentially modify the code to transmit your credentials somewhere.
- A browser is fundamentally a sandbox that deals with potentially malicious code and content loaded from the Internet. It is not really a secure environment to run sensitive operations in.

In terms of security, the web-based access is much weaker than using the apps. I'd recommend not to use it if possible.

 

[horsebattery]

Are you actually serious? 100.000 dollars? You think any professional criminal hacker, would give that away for that low amount of money. That is hilarious. Hilarious!

Breaking into 1Password.com is worth millions of dollars if you sell it on the black market or to some government.

And there is a chance that (like in the case of the Yahoo hack) customers and the public would find out many years later.

"We can't solve this 100% so why bother?!"

I really don't understand why this mentality continues to permeate throughout this thread.

 

[X--X]

"We can't solve this 100% so why bother?!"
.

It is solved. It is solved with local sync.

 

[itguy06]

Curious - how are you syncing between the desktop and mobile versions of Enpass? Don't you have to use a cloud service?

Also the Enpass apps look interesting.....it's just the pricing that worries me. How can a company survive when all they are getting from a single user is $9.99 and that user gets a lifetime license?!?

I use OneDrive. The cloud stuff doesn't scare me too much as I have 2FA on that and (barely) trust MS to be somewhat secure.

I have a feeling the "next version" will be a paid version.

 

[Rigby]

I use a complex password with capital letters, small letters, numbers and symbols. It would EXTREMELY hard just to guess out of however many (100+ million?) combinations.

The problem is that passwords also need to be memorizable. Modern password cracking software knows most of the tricks that people use to construct such passwords and use this knowledge to exclude large amounts of unlikely passwords. Combined with high-performance algorithms (that often use GPU hardware acceleration) many passwords that were once considered safe can now be cracked.

There are ways to construct memorable passphrases with a proven high amount of entropy (e.g. Diceware), but they are usually too long to be practical on mobile devices.