Serial App to Old World OF?

[DearthnVader]

If you dont mind me asking what is your full setup? I have been meaning to get a proper USB to Mac Serial adapter/setup on the go to make OpenFirmware debugging etc a bit easier for myself, but I admit I am a bit lost as to which cables/dongles are required/recommend exactly

I know that if your using another beige mac (or new world mac with a stealth card) you just need printer cable and link the 2 etc, but I am not sure what the way to connect to a modern mac is

KEYSPAN USA-28X USB( I have an extra but the cost of shipping to London would be likely more than one will cost you, even tho I work for UPS in next day air at the World Port )

Serial App( not cheap but the driver for the Keyspan is built in and if you buy from the App Store you can download the updated version free )

The correct cross over cable( very important ).

The Image Writer II cable is a crossover serial cable:

Apple Mac 6 ft Serial Printer Cable 8 pin Image II 2 | eBay

 

[joevt]

Keyspan USB Twin Serial Adapter USA-28X using Serial.app
Serial.app has its own driver for that and other serial adapters.
https://www.decisivetactics.com/products/serial/
https://www.decisivetactics.com/support/view?article=compatible-devices

Some hackintoshes have built-in COM ports that will work. You may need a motherboard COM port adapter.
If you have a PCIe slot or a Thunderbolt port and a Thunderbolt PCIe expansion chassis, then you can use a 16x50 based serial port PCIe card like the StarTech PEX2S953.
In either case, you may need a DB9 to 8 pin mini DIN connector that's compatible with Mac serial ports.

 

[LightBulbFun]

thanks for the info! didn't quite realise how pricey it gets! theres only 1 of those USB to mac serial adapters on UK eBay and it in itself is £40, however I do have a couple Xserve machines in my collection, which of course have DB9 RS232 serial ports on them, they are technically last Mac to ship with a serial port AFAIK?

In either case, you may need a DB9 to 8 pin mini DIN connector that's compatible with Mac serial ports.

so is there any more info on adapting a Mac Serial port to connect to an RS232 port? (this is something I have been meaning to look into anyhow so I can use my Xserve to network my Macintosh SE or SE/30 but I digress )

for example a little bit of quick sleuthing turns this up

DB9 Female RS232 to 8-Pin Mini Din Male Apple MAC Adapter Cable 70810 C2G 25041 | eBay UK

Original / Genuine / Official DB9 Female RS232 to 8-Pin Mini Din Male Apple MAC Adapter Cable 70810 C2G 25041. 2,China mainland and Hong Kong will not be send to. USA/Canada 7-12d Spanish/Portugue 7-12d.

www.ebay.co.uk

but I am not sure if its a cross-over cable or not? although this listing of a cable with the same part number does list a pin out tho I am not sure how the pinout of the DIN 8 pin serial compares with the DB9 serial

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[joevt]

Attached my notes from 1998

I think "Joe's Mac to PC serial cable.txt" -> "Final Wiring" is the adapter I made.
You can tell it's a cross-over cable because RXD on one side is connected to TXD at the other side.

 

[LightBulbFun]

alright I picked up this Keyspan USA-28X B with a £30 best offer (I wonder what the B suffix gets me LOL)

KEYSPAN USA-28X B Dual Port RS422-USB Converter | eBay

<p>KEYSPAN USA-28X B Dual Port RS422-USB Converter. </p><br /><p>Excellent condition - barely used </p>

www.ebay.co.uk

and also this serial cable

Pardon our interruption...

lets see if I can get anywhere with it when It arrives Its also a good excuse to get a stealth serial card for a some of my new world macs need to figure out what the lay of the land is there I know a chap on the 68kMLA was remanufacturing them, but im not sure how things currently stand

 

[DearthnVader]

alright I picked up this Keyspan USA-28X B with a £30 best offer (I wonder what the B suffix gets me LOL)

KEYSPAN USA-28X B Dual Port RS422-USB Converter | eBay

<p>KEYSPAN USA-28X B Dual Port RS422-USB Converter. </p><br /><p>Excellent condition - barely used </p>

www.ebay.co.uk

and also this serial cable

Pardon our interruption...

lets see if I can get anywhere with it when It arrives Its also a good excuse to get a stealth serial card for a some of my new world macs need to figure out what the lay of the land is there I know a chap on the 68kMLA was remanufacturing them, but im not sure how things currently stand

What you have should work, just a matter of the settings mostly knowing the default baud of the target, but you will get a connection it will just be gibberish until you get the baud rate correct.

As Joe has said you can change the baud rate, but I just like to use the default unless I'm trying tftp, and I never have.

If you have all the settings right and still get nothing, it's likely not a crossover cable.

VT100 terminal, baud rate, OX on off really doesn't matter mostly, 8 bits no parity should get you something and you can tweak the setting after that.

That should work with all the Old World Macs.

 

[LightBulbFun]

im just wondering, has anyone figured out exactly what the difference is between the USA-28X USA-28XB and USA-28XG?

I cant seem to find much that goes into detail what the difference is between them, and only a few references directly comparing/showing the different versions

Un adaptateur série Mini DIN 8 avec un Mac récent - Le journal du lapin

Le journal du lapin, mon espace personnel ou je parle de trucs retro, d'expérimentations et de produits Apple. Et évidemment de prototypes.

www.journaldulapin.com

Keyspan USB adapters hardware and software matrix

FAQ: Newer PCs and laptops lack an RS232-C interface. The Keyspan USB adaptor emulates this port and allows X-Rite serial instruments to function.

www.xrite.com

 

[DearthnVader]

im just wondering, has anyone figured out exactly what the difference is between the USA-28X USA-28XB and USA-28XG?

I cant seem to find much that goes into detail what the difference is between them, and only a few references directly comparing/showing the different versions

Un adaptateur série Mini DIN 8 avec un Mac récent - Le journal du lapin

Le journal du lapin, mon espace personnel ou je parle de trucs retro, d'expérimentations et de produits Apple. Et évidemment de prototypes.

www.journaldulapin.com

Keyspan USB adapters hardware and software matrix

FAQ: Newer PCs and laptops lack an RS232-C interface. The Keyspan USB adaptor emulates this port and allows X-Rite serial instruments to function.

www.xrite.com

I don't know, I have two of them, but I had not checked if they are both the same version. I'm pretty sure Serial App's driver will work for all of them.

 

[joevt]

I have a USA-28 and a USA-28X. Both work with the same driver or Serial.app.

 

[LightBulbFun]

thats good to know

I noticed after buying the printer cable and keyspan adapter there where/are a couple UK sellers selling open ended 8 pin mini din cables

8 Pin Mini DIN Plug Breakout Cable 1.8m long | eBay UK

8 Pin Mini DIN Plug Breakout Cable. Pin 1 - Yellow. Pin 2 - Orange. Pin 3 - Brown. Pin 4 - Green. Pin 5 - Blue.

www.ebay.co.uk

so as a sort of contingency plan I picked one up as well as some female DB9 screw terminal plugs, thus I should be able to knock together my own Mac to PC serial crossover cable for interfacing my beige macs to to my Xserve, Serial port equipped PCs/Hackintoshes/ or even my EFIKA 5200B if I really wanted to (tho Ill probably be using the serial ports it has to debug *it*, rather then using it to debug anything else LOL but I digress)


also in a classic case of amazon order escalation, I picked up a cheap £10 PCIe Serial card, partly out of morbid curiosity/amusement factor to chuck it into my MacPro7,1 (I have got a Firewire card I have been meaning to install as well as some other internal reconfigurations, so this seems good as time as any )

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BDR2NZRN?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

but also as something that I think it should work OOB, as mentioned I have found Mac OS X has pretty much always picked up the serial ports on my various Hackintosh machines be it my 2002 Pentium 4 Northwood system or something more modern, so hopefully this should give me something that works without requiring any sort of 3rd party software/drivers, just incase I run into issues with the Keyspan setup etc, well thats the theory anyhow, we will see once I install it!

 

[joevt]

I noticed after buying the printer cable and keyspan adapter there where/are a couple UK sellers selling open ended 8 pin mini din cables

You can get two open ended 8 pin mini din cables by getting a regular 8 pin mini din cable and cutting it in half.

also in a classic case of amazon order escalation, I picked up a cheap £10 PCIe Serial card, partly out of morbid curiosity/amusement factor to chuck it into my MacPro7,1 (I have got a Firewire card I have been meaning to install as well as some other internal reconfigurations, so this seems good as time as any )

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BDR2NZRN?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

but also as something that I think it should work OOB, as mentioned I have found Mac OS X has pretty much always picked up the serial ports on my various Hackintosh machines be it my 2002 Pentium 4 Northwood system or something more modern, so hopefully this should give me something that works without requiring any sort of 3rd party software, just incase I run into issues with the Keyspan, well thats the theory anyhow, we will see once I install it!

The product page says it uses a AX99100 chip. The data sheet for the AX99100 says it supports 16C450, 16C550 and Extend 16C550, 16C650, 16C750 and 16C950 device architectures and the default operating mode is set to 16C450. The macOS com.apple.driver.Apple16X50Serial driver should be compatible.
My hackintosh uses com.apple.driver.Apple16X50ACPI (ACPI) instead of the PCI version (com.apple.driver.Apple16X50ACPI) because it's a built-in 16x50 COM port.

The serial port can be used to debug EFI. You can find Open Core issues and documentation describing that use case and method.

A 16x50 serial port might work in a Power Mac but it can't be used to debug Open Firmware?

Which Xserve do you have?

What kind of serial port controller do the PowerMac Xserves use? Can the serial port of a PowerMac Xserve be used in Open Firmware? Might be interesting to get a rom dump from a Power Mac Xserve.

The Quad G5 has standard Mac serial port devices in the device-tree but I don't know if there's any connectors for them.

 

[DearthnVader]

You can get two open ended 8 pin mini din cables but getting a regular 8 pin mini din cable and cutting it in half.


The product page says it uses a AX99100 chip. The data sheet for the AX99100 says it supports 16C450, 16C550 and Extend 16C550, 16C650, 16C750 and 16C950 device architectures and the default operating mode is set to 16C450. The macOS com.apple.driver.Apple16X50Serial driver should be compatible.
My hackintosh uses com.apple.driver.Apple16X50ACPI (ACPI) instead of the PCI version (com.apple.driver.Apple16X50ACPI) because it's a built-in 16x50 COM port.

The serial port can be used to debug EFI. You can find Open Core issues and documentation describing that use case and method.

A 16x50 serial port might work in a Power Mac but it can't be used to debug Open Firmware?

Which Xserve do you have?

What kind of serial port controller do the PowerMac Xserves use? Can the serial port of a PowerMac Xserve be used in Open Firmware? Might be interesting to get a rom dump from a Power Mac Xserve.

The Quad G5 has standard Mac serial port devices in the device-tree but I don't know if there's any connectors for them.

I think all the New World PowerMac's have a serial device( Cereal ) on the modem port in OF, but I've never figure out how to use the modem as a serial device in OF, I think you need to attach a true serial device like the stealth port, then you can use it in OF.


Pretty sure the port was used by Apple when they were debugging the hardware and OS X.

 

[LightBulbFun]

You can get two open ended 8 pin mini din cables but getting a regular 8 pin mini din cable and cutting it in half.


The product page says it uses a AX99100 chip. The data sheet for the AX99100 says it supports 16C450, 16C550 and Extend 16C550, 16C650, 16C750 and 16C950 device architectures and the default operating mode is set to 16C450. The macOS com.apple.driver.Apple16X50Serial driver should be compatible.
My hackintosh uses com.apple.driver.Apple16X50ACPI (ACPI) instead of the PCI version (com.apple.driver.Apple16X50ACPI) because it's a built-in 16x50 COM port.

The serial port can be used to debug EFI. You can find Open Core issues and documentation describing that use case and method.

A 16x50 serial port might work in a Power Mac but it can't be used to debug Open Firmware?

Which Xserve do you have?

What kind of serial port controller do the PowerMac Xserves use? Can the serial port of a PowerMac Xserve be used in Open Firmware? Might be interesting to get a rom dump from a Power Mac Xserve.

The Quad G5 has standard Mac serial port devices in the device-tree but I don't know if there's any connectors for them.

yeah I did initially look for some 8 pin to 8 pin cables but turns out they are all about £8-£15 and I did not feel like chopping up a perfectly good cable for that much

thats good to know on the serial card front, I did recall some known mac compatible serial cards using that chipset which is why I homed in on it and thats pretty cool it can be used for debugging EFI at a low level, I have been as deep as an EFI shell but never to the level of serial debugging, but its handy to know I have the option


the Xserve's I have are and Xserve1,1 and Xserve3,1 intel machines 2006 and 2009 respectively, sadly I dont have any PowerPC Xserves in the collection, I would like one, but never quite managed to pick one up sadly, so I dont know exactly how the Serial ports on an Xserve attatch exactly, but I imagine its through the PowerPC chipset, same way it works on Macs that use the serial interface for their modem cards

as an aside on all the recent PCI/PCIe video card goings on its, one of the big turn off's about the Xserve G5 to the the mac enthusiast/collector/hobbyist, was the fact it never had any real options for decent graphics, no AGP slots, just PCI-X, but it would be interesting to see how a high end card would perform in such a machine by way of the mythical Startech PCI-X to PCIe x4 card

my good friend @bunnspecial put together a Flashed GeForce FX5200 for his, (this was before I discovered that you could fairly easily flash PCI 6200's) but now of course we know that PCI to PCIe adapters work which open up a new load of options

 

[DearthnVader]

my good friend @bunnspecial put together a Flashed GeForce FX5200 for his, (this was before I discovered that you could fairly easily flash PCI 6200's) but now of course we know that PCI to PCIe adapters work which open up a new load of options

My cheap PCI to PCI-E bridge is 66Mhz compatible and runs at that speed in the PCI-X slots. The flashed x1950 XT performs better than you think it would in this setup.

The StarTech card is too expensive, and that is if you can find it.

Just a cheap bridge with 66Mhz compatibility is all you need, best bang for the buck. It doesn't preform like the 66MHz slot in the B&W or Yikes, it's way faster.

I have this one, not my auction.

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[LightBulbFun]

pleased to report the home made RS422 mini 8 pin DIN to 9 pin DE9 RS232 cable and the £10 serial card where a success!

I made up the cable the other day

and installed the serial card (and firewire card that I had bought previously and been meaning to install already) into my MacPro7,1

got enough legacy ports to make Steve Jobs weep where upon it was detected without any issues (tho interestingly shows up as 2 PCI devices in System profiler)

then as a quick and dirty test I just did screen /dev/tty.pci-serial0 38400 (Serial Port 0 is the left port and Serial Port 1 is the right port in my case) and once I redirected my Kanga's OpenFirmware output to its serial port it worked a treat without any finagling at all (well at least on the software side, making the cable was a bit fiddly for me!)

I am still waiting on the Keyspan adapter-dongle but the 8 pin to 8 pin cable did arrive, googling the part number stamped on it shows it to indeed be an apple printer cable, so hopefully that works with that

but yeah I am pretty pleased this home-made version seems to have worked, gives handy options incase you want something that works entirely natively without any 3rd party software (its quite neat that Apple does still support this sort of shenanigans ) or if those keyspan adapters become hard to find

 

[Amethyst1]

and installed the serial card (and firewire card that I had bought previously and been meaning to install already) into my MacPro7,1

When did you get one of these?

 

[DearthnVader]

When did you get one of these?

That's what I am saying, why do Lightbulb's get to have all the fun?

 

[LightBulbFun]

When did you get one of these?

That's what I am saying, why do Lightbulb's get to have all the fun?

about October last year to replace my trusty MacPro5,1 that had served me faithfully since 2016 but was sadly getting long in the tooth, mostly OS support wise, the big issue was while you could use OCLP to run later OS's, virtualisation was broken on those later versions and I have a large x86 virtual machine library, thus I was stuck on Mojave but with software dropping support for it left right and centre after lots of deliberating of what exactly to do I was left with little option but to save up and splash out on a MacPro7,1, it took a while but I found one on the used market for a very good price and as a surprise bonus it came with a Radeon Pro Vega II, it was listed as only having a 580X, so that was very nice!

it has worked very well as a replacement for my trusty MacPro5,1 (which has now joined the rest of my Macintosh collection) although I do miss the ease of accessibility the MacPro5,1 has, the MacPro7,1 you have to disconnect everything to get inside, and if you dont have enough clearance hight (my desk is a bunk bed with the bed frame above used for fluorescent tube storage) you have to move the machine somewhere else to lift the lid, a very first world problem mind!

 

[DearthnVader]

about October last year to replace my trust MacPro5,1 that had served me faithfully since 2016 but was sadly getting long in the tooth, mostly OS suppor wise, the big issue was while you could use OCLP to run later OS's, virtualisation was broken on those later versions and I have a large x86 virtual machine library, thus I was stuck on Mojave but with software dropping support for it left right and centre after lots of deliberating of what exactly to do I was left with little option but to save up and splash out on a MacPro7,1, it took a while but I found one on the used market for a very good price and as a surprise bonus it came with a Radeon Pro Vega II, it was listed as only having a 580X, so that was very nice!

it has worked very well as a replacement for my trusty MacPro5,1 (which has now joined the rest of my Macintosh collection) although I do miss the ease of accessibility the MacPro5,1 has, the MacPro7,1 you have to disconnect everything to get inside, and if you dont have enough clearance hight (my desk is a bunk bed with the bed frame above used for fluorescent tube storage) you have to move the machine somewhere else to lift the lid, a very first world problem mind!

They are nice pieces of kit( 7,1 ) I'm not sure the AppleSoC really replaces them for a lot of users.

I'm waiting till the price comes down, but it likely won't be in my price range until Apple drops and OS that is unsupported on the 7,1.

The AppleSoC Mac Pro just isn't my thing, no video card upgrades, and you can't upgrade the ram or the ssd. That's not a Pro machine. I can live without x86, but not those things.

 

[DearthnVader]

I made up the cable the other day

Where did you find the kit for this cable?

Would you mind posting a wiring diagram?

 

[LightBulbFun]

Where did you find the kit for this cable?

Would you mind posting a wiring diagram?

I just searched for an Mini 8 pin DIN breakout cable and found this, which very handily included a wire-colour-to-pinout chart

8 Pin Mini DIN Plug Breakout Cable 1.8m long | eBay UK

8 Pin Mini DIN Plug Breakout Cable. Pin 1 - Yellow. Pin 2 - Orange. Pin 3 - Brown. Pin 4 - Green. Pin 5 - Blue.

www.ebay.co.uk

tho as @joevt says you could just slice the end off any 8 pin mini DIN cable (or cut one in half to end up with 2) and strip back the end and end up with the same thing

then I picked up one of these, a DE9 breakout connector (very often erroneously referred to as DB9 connector same way the DB15 Macintosh Video connector is actually DA15)

and wired it all together according to this guide

using @joevt's own documents as a sanity check/secondary source (can confirm the picture guide is correct)



as an aside I do note there are pre-made Mini 8 pin DIN to DE9 cables on amazon etc but one thing to keep in mind with those is they dont say how they are wired up internally and checking the reviews for one, apparently they dont always have all the conductors either, so just be aware of that

 

[DearthnVader]

I just searched for an Mini 8 pin DIN breakout cable and found this, which very handily included a wire-colour-to-pinout chart

8 Pin Mini DIN Plug Breakout Cable 1.8m long | eBay UK

8 Pin Mini DIN Plug Breakout Cable. Pin 1 - Yellow. Pin 2 - Orange. Pin 3 - Brown. Pin 4 - Green. Pin 5 - Blue.

www.ebay.co.uk

tho as @joevt says you could just slice the end off any 8 pin mini DIN cable (or cut one in half to end up with 2) and strip back the end and end up with the same thing

then I picked up one of these, a DE9 breakout connector (very often erroneously referred to as DB9 connector same way the DB15 Macintosh Video connector is actually DA15)

and wired it all together according to this guide

View attachment 2394936

using @joevt's own documents as a sanity check/secondary source (can confirm the picture guide is correct)



as an aside I do note there are pre-made Mini 8 pin DIN to DE9 cables on amazon etc but one thing to keep in mind with those is they dont say how they are wired up internally and checking the reviews for one, apparently they dont always have all the conductors either, so just be aware of that

Thanks, I keep seeing those on Amazon too, but I was not sure how they were wired. After my misadventures with buying 2 Keyspans and two cables I was also weary of how they maybe wired.

The odd thing for me was the printer cable that came with my Beige G3 had the bi-directional arrows on it, so it should have supported cross-over, but it just didn't work.

The "new" cable I bought, that I linked, the Image Writer II cable also has the bi-directional arrows on each end and it works just fine. One would think this would mean they are both cross-over Local Talk cables, but I have not pulled out my multi-meter and tested it.

 

[LightBulbFun]

my Keyspan USA-28XB adapter finally arrived, and im pleased to report it works perfectly with my Macintosh Printer cable I got recently, and I can talk to my 9600's OpenFirmware no problems my printer cable has an apple logo on each connector and 590-0552 moulded on the other side also for what thats worth

 

[DearthnVader]

my Keyspan USA-28XB adapter finally arrived, and im pleased to report it works perfectly with my Macintosh Printer cable I got recently, and I can talk to my 9600's OpenFirmware no problems my printer cable has an apple logo on each connector and 590-0552 moulded on the other side also for what thats worth

What baud rate did you use?

 

[LightBulbFun]

What baud rate did you use?

38400 is what my PowerMac 9600 seems to default to so whats what I used so thats what I used on the terminal emulator side of things, doing " ttya:57600" io when at an OF prompt say on on your monitor to pipe said OF output it to the serial port at 57600, also works once of course set your terminal emulator to use 57600