Sexsomnia

[MongoTheGeek]

wPod: Why do you make up this story? I get all sorts of bad vibes from your post. If it was at least based on the guys testimony I would be fine with it, but nothing in the article suggests that the guy said things had been leading up to consenting sex.

From what I understand they both passed out drunk and then both woke up having sex.

I think I would have a hard time convicting him unless there had been clear progress after she woke up and said stop or had explicitly said no before hand.

 

[Applespider]

I can understand doing strange things in your sleep since I've seen it happen; often, people are dreaming what they're doing but aren't aware that it's no longer a dream.

What I don't get about this one is while I'm sure most of us have had dreams where we're having sex, I'm not sure that I've ever considered the need for birth control in them. Fantasies just don't need the break in the action that real life does...

 

[gekko513]

From what I understand they both passed out drunk and then both woke up having sex.

I think I would have a hard time convicting him unless there had been clear progress after she woke up and said stop or had explicitly said no before hand.

Why would it change anything if she had explicitly said no before hand? Does saying nothing in any way imply a "yes, you can have sex with me when I fall asleep"?

 

[wPod]

wPod: Why do you make up this story? I get all sorts of bad vibes from your post. If it was at least based on the guys testimony I would be fine with it, but nothing in the article suggests that the guy said things had been leading up to consenting sex.

The article says:

The court heard that Luedecke and the female victim met at a party. She testified she fell asleep and woke up to find Luedecke having sex with her.

which makes me think they had both been drinking a little (or a lot) before this all started. how many times do you meet someone at a party, then go back with them if you are in a completely sober mind? they were either drunk and the guy didn't really know what he was doing cause he was so drunk, or he had dropped something in her drink and she just happen to wake up half way through! either way it doesn't sound very believable which i guess is my main point.

 

[LethalWolfe]

I can understand doing strange things in your sleep since I've seen it happen; often, people are dreaming what they're doing but aren't aware that it's no longer a dream.

What I don't get about this one is while I'm sure most of us have had dreams where we're having sex, I'm not sure that I've ever considered the need for birth control in them. Fantasies just don't need the break in the action that real life does...

But, AFAIK, acting out a dream is not a prerequisite for things like sleep walking or sexomnia. I have a habit of walking across the room, turning off my alarm clock, and going back to bed all w/o realizing what I did (missed a final in college one time 'cause of it, doh!). I now move the alarm clock around the room randomly and sometimes even set 2 alarm clocks. I've even had a phone conversation w/my gf while asleep.

If this guy typically wears a rubber I'm not really that surprised he put one on in his sleep. It's just another part of the sexual experience for him.
Here is another link to the story that mentions the guy had 4 previous gf's that all testified he'd had "sleep sex" w/them and even the defendent saying the guy wasn't acting "normal" during the altercation.
Link


Lethal

 

[gekko513]

The article says:


which makes me think they had both been drinking a little (or a lot) before this all started. how many times do you meet someone at a party, then go back with them if you are in a completely sober mind? they were either drunk and the guy didn't really know what he was doing cause he was so drunk, or he had dropped something in her drink and she just happen to wake up half way through! either way it doesn't sound very believable which i guess is my main point.

Well, sure they met at a party, but the article doesn't even say where this happened, were they still at the party, did she come home with him or him to her, what did the other people at the party say and see? We don't know anything, and it seems strange to me to make up a more "likely" story based on the little that we know.

 

[neut]

Why would it change anything if she had explicitly said no before hand? Does saying nothing in any way imply a "yes, you can have sex with me when I fall asleep"?

Well, just don't be falling asleep next to Mongo ...




peace | neut

 

[wPod]

I've even had a phone conversation w/my gf while asleep.

lol yeah. been there! anyone who is ever so fortunate to call me in the morning has had this experience. i will get up and answer my phone. but if you ask me half an hour later what was said in the phone conversation, i would ask when they called b/c i do not remember a phone call. i used to be really bad in high school. my mom would walk in my room at like noon on saturday and tell me to do something and i would say sure. when she got back later that sat she would get mad that i didnt get anything done!!! well, it was cause i totally didnt remember the conversation!!!! yet i apparently have had many full conversations this way.

ive also held completely normal conversations while drunk. then not remembered them and people say 'you didnt seem drunk'

 

[Mord]

after going to sleep i once sleep walked down the stairs to my friend who was sleeping in my liveing room woke him up punched him in the face knocking him clean out then went back towards my bedroom only to be foiled by the stairs collapsing in a heap, i sleep talk all the time, generally obscenely, i dont often swear in real life but i'm completely foul mouthed asleep...

 

[Lacero]

It's hard enough for most guys to find sex while awake...

/sexsomnia = cool
//woot!

///currently playing: Don't Cha - The Pussycat Dolls

Here's to the Crazy Ones ​

 

[dvdh]

I was a skeptic at the first read as well, but got to thinking . . .

that I was sleepwalker when I was a kid. My mom would routinely find me wandering around at night, going outside. Of course I remember nothing of this and out grew it fairly quickly. But what if I had not out grown it? While when I was a kid, I did routine things that a kid would do in my sleep. (even tried to pee in the closet once!)

If I was an adult sleep walker, does that mean that I might do routine adult things in my sleep? How about going for a drive? Or lighting up the range to boil some water? Or since I quite enjoy having sex in my waking hours, could this happen in my sleep too?

 

[MongoTheGeek]

Well, just don't be falling asleep next to Mondo ...




peace | neut

Didja mean Mongo?

Thing is I am a very light nervous sleeper. It took me a couple of weeks before I could sleep(as in lie down and be alseep) with my wife(before she was my wife). I just couldn't sleep. I also talk in my sleep once I get there though.

 

[GFLPraxis]

So much seems sketchy.

They both fell asleep at the party?

Then he started having sex with her in public, in full view of everyone at the party?

And nobody noticed, or at least cared?

What kind of a party was this?

 

[CanadaRAM]

If I was an adult sleep walker, does that mean that I might do routine adult things in my sleep? How about going for a drive? Or lighting up the range to boil some water? Or since I quite enjoy having sex in my waking hours, could this happen in my sleep too?

Yes. IIRC all of these (or similar) have been documented.
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/cs/sleepwalktalk/a/sleepmurder.htm
http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/para.html
http://www.parasomnias-rbd.com/bmachine/index.php?id=34

 

[Sargiel]

When sleepwalking you aren't inhibited from doing anything that you might do normally. Fortunately this seems to have tailed off for me now - but I've had conversations with people who didn't realise I was asleep until I started doing something bizaare and have even taken a drive (though thankfully that was a one off - that really scared the hell out of me. What if I'd hit someone ).

If he had enough evidence and witnesses to verify his condition then I'm glad he wasn't treated in the same way as a conscious and deliberate rapist.

 

[FoxyKaye]

What-ever. It's got about the same validity as the "gay panic" defense.

He raped her, plain and simple. It's a classic defense to obfuscate the facts by introducing doubt through disorder. Don't know how the Canadian legal system works, but if this case were in the U.S., all the defense would have to do is introduce reasonable doubt. It's how countless rapes remain unprosecuted, and why women aren't always willing to press charges. For that matter, it's why rape trials are a bloody hell for women in the first place. That's sexism - it allows the defense of rape by blaming the woman: did she lead him on? was there a discussion about sex? had they had sex before? was he conscious of his behaviour? why didn't she leave the room? didn't she notice sooner?

Seriously, let's turn the tables here - a man wakes up in the middle of the night to discover that his wife/girlfriend has sliced off his penis with a knife from the kitchen. Since she has an acknowledged sleeping disorder and has admitted to sleepwalking before, she has no memory of the incident. You can bet she's going to jail, regardless of her defense. If this were the story, I really don't think there'd be any discussion here over whether or not he could have avoided the situation by not sleeping in the same bed with her, or joking about what a pleasurable experience it must have been for her to slice off his penis.

Let's go a little further - suppose instead of a woman he met at a party, it was a male drinking buddy he passed out with on the couch. Again, if his friend woke up being raped by him, I don't think the discussion about this incident would be the same at all.

mkrishnan has closest to right here - it's his fracking problem, not hers. He didn't take responsibility for something he knew he should. He didn't tell her it could happen, he didn't leave the room when he felt himself starting to fall asleep. Folks with serious mental disorders who have consciously not taken or sought treatment have been prosecuted - there is no difference here. Hell, in this day and age, people are being prosecuted for spreading HIV. He made a conscious decision to accompany her to the bedroom, and did not tell her about his "condition." A reasonable person would not expect to wake up being raped, regardless of the cause.

Seriously folks, grow up.

 

[neut]

Seriously folks, grow up.

When did cutting off a penis = waking up to sex? Maybe if he woke up and she was starting to saw at his penis, then suddenly she woke up not realizing what she was doing.

Is this a court room? When did the judge enter? And what makes your stance any more right than anyone else?

Sleep disorders area a problem. Rape is a problem. Miscommunication is a problem. Reasonable doubt is a problem.

There's no question that this is a rape case; the question is ... "Is sleep disorder a valid defense?" What if he was driving and hit someone (whilst asleep)? If they died and he was awake he would be guilty of man slaughter not murder.

So my question is ... when does rape occur? If you kinda kill someone can't you kinda rape someone? Stupid i know but that's the American judicial system. People get away with rape/murder and people get wrongfully accused of rape/murder.

Laws should not be the end all say all. Clearly humans live inside and outside the boundaries of rules and regulation.

We so love to accuse acquit from afar. Goes along with that whole labeling thing love to do as well ...

Regardless, if his sleeping disorder was known to be this severe ... he should be under constant supervision. Who knows what he will do while sleeping. Shouldn't the judge have order treatment for this man??? And counseling for the her?


peace | neut

 

[FoxyKaye]

Is this a court room? When did the judge enter? And what makes your stance any more right than anyone else?

You missed my point - it is neither funny nor interesting to joke about some dude getting his rocks off in his sleep at the expense of a woman who has accused him of rape.

Second, the nature of rape in general and the sexism that allows most rapes to remain unprosecuted is the point. You can't kinda rape or kinda kill anyone, it's about the level of intent in each action. Your point about falling asleep while driving is comparing an apple to an orange - if you're driving and too tired to drive further, it is your responsibility to do something about it. If you hit someone and kill them, then the question is not whether you killed them, it's the intent behind the murder, which is why there are various degrees of murder and manslaughter.

In this circumstance, if this "condition" really exists and the guy being accused of rape was admittedly conscious of it, then it was his responsibility to communicate the nature of his disorder to the woman the second he got into bed with her. What the defense is trying to do is alleviate the responsibility of rape by blaming his disorder, which I would point out is possible because of sexism.

In your example, neither manslaughter nor any degree of murder alleviates the responsibility of the action. Also, in the case of this particular gentleman, the question of intent is irrelevant since he was fully aware of his condition. He knew it could happen, and regardless of his intent when it did, he didn't take any responsibility for the potential that it could occur. However, since rape trials are prosecuted differently than trials involving death, what the defense is doing is conflating responsibility with intent - in effect, saying, "hey, he might have had this problem, but he didn't intend for anything to happen, therefore he can't be responsible for it if it did." This would get the defendant a free pass from prosecution, whereas someone who fell asleep driving and killed someone as a consequence would at the least be prosecuted for manslaughter because it was not their intent to kill but the responsibility for killing someone still rests with them.

 

[neut]

...

Falling asleep while driving is just stupid. I'm talking about a guy who falls asleep, gets up, takes a drive, then proceeds to hit someone because he's actually still asleep. Yes, this problem does exist if one would read the entire thread and do a little research.

We have no idea of this guys intent, but we do know that he did stop when she awoke. He may have been aware of his condition, but he may have not be fully aware of the possibilities it could lead to (like rape) which would be something he should take up with his doctor. We can only speculate the details from such a short article.

i'm not saying he didn't rape her; and i find the judgment strange. i would think there would be more to it than guilty/not guilty in a case like this, but i don't know Canadian law that well.

You missed my point - it is neither funny nor interesting to joke about some dude getting his rocks off in his sleep at the expense of a woman who has accused him of rape.

... or a man which would be funnier. I wouldn't laugh at the actual occurrence of rape, but you can make a comical and fictional joke with a little imagination. i find your understanding humor disturbing; sometimes situations/things that are blatantly wrong can be funny. you should try laughing sometime ... it can help with the severity of the situation and let you think clearly by taking away the human emotions when criticizing the facts before you. we are in no place to judge. .. and your right rape isn't funny, but if someone doesn't know that they shouldn't be trusted.


peace | neut

 

[FoxyKaye]

...sometimes situations/things that are blatantly wrong can be funny. you should try laughing sometime ... it can help with the severity of the situation and let you think clearly by taking away the human emotions when criticizing the facts before you. we are in no place to judge. .. and your right rape isn't funny, but if someone doesn't know that they shouldn't be trusted.

I do laugh - this case really hits home: both as a woman and as one of the few women on MR.

Thanks, though...

 

[caveman_uk]

Ever dreamed you were having sex?

Errr....like...yeah. Loads of times.

I can honestly say I've never had a dream where I put a condom on though. And yes, normally I use one.

 

[maxterpiece]

in drunk driving where the driver hits and kills someone, the car is considered a weapon. The driver's drunkenness transforms the car into a deadly weapon - sorta like if you walked into a public place with a grenade that had the pin out... one little bump and a ton of people die. You were clearly negligible/stupid for bringing such a dangerous thing into a place where you can hurt yourself and others, so you thus take responsibility for any damage that you do. It is like pulling the trigger of a gun in public with your eyes closed. It's stupid.

Now, this guy is different. He has a disorder that as far as I can tell was clinically undiagnosed and there are no clearly defined laws regarding it. He may have a history of having sleep sex with girlfriends, but he never has attempted to sleep rape any women before, so he has no reason to believe that he may be a danger to anyone. This guy never took any action that he had a responsibility to be aware could be dangerous, nor did he have any intent to injure anyone. In other words, the entire event was outside of his control.

Putting this man in jail for this is the equivalent of putting me in jail because I bought meat at a grocery store that had mad cow disease and served it to a bunch of people who went on to die. I had no idea that my action would hurt anyone, nor any reasonable reason to be expected to know that my action might hurt someone, so how can I be blamed?

Now, if 2 weeks from now this guy is accused of doing the same thing to someone else, he should be put in jail, because now he knows that he has the potential to do something dangerous like this and he has a responsibility to avoid this kind of situation.