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Altis

macrumors 68040
Sep 10, 2013
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I disagree. I think the variety of work environments you're describing really calls for a more flexible form factor than a traditional laptop. This is where the iPad excels. Study group at the coffee shop? Leave the keyboard at home. Long typing session in the library? Bring it.

Surprisingly, I haven't seen a single iPad on campus since being back. There's certainly fewer MacBooks than I expected, too.

Laptops are incredibly more versatile for what most students need to do thanks to multitasking and external peripherals (such as monitor when docked).
 

Channan

macrumors 68030
Mar 7, 2012
2,866
3,051
New Orleans
Everyone's use case is different, so YMMV. Nevertheless, I'll risk a rule of thumb here: if you think most (over 50%) of your use will be keyboard input intensive, then buy the rMB rather than an iPad.
Alternatively, you can just get used to typing directly on the iPad. That's what I did. It took me a few months, but I can easily type 80 wpm on my iPad.
 

Ghost31

macrumors 68040
Jun 9, 2015
3,338
5,144
Surprisingly, I haven't seen a single iPad on campus since being back. There's certainly fewer MacBooks than I expected, too.

Laptops are incredibly more versatile for what most students need to do thanks to multitasking and external peripherals (such as monitor when docked).

This is what weirds me out. I used to see MacBooks EVERYWHERE in computer science classes. Now those same classes are a mix of surface pros and generic windows laptops.
 
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M. Gustave

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2015
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Surprisingly, I haven't seen a single iPad on campus since being back.

That's anecdotal evidence of nothing in particular. We don't know where and how big your school is, what department you're in, etc. It's doubtful you're interacting with the entire student population.

And I know many departments in the past made really dumb knee-jerk technology recommendations. My wife went to an ivy league school in the mid 2000s for her master's degree in a non math/science field. The dept said it "required" all students to have a particular laptop model: the absolute highest priced, most tricked-out 15" laptop that Dell sold at the time. She used about 1/20th of its capability.

Laptops are incredibly more versatile for what most students need to do thanks to multitasking and external peripherals (such as monitor when docked).

iPad has multitasking of course, and can connect to most wireless accessories. And clearly an external monitor is optional to getting a college degree. They're not day trading.
 
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Altis

macrumors 68040
Sep 10, 2013
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That's anecdotal evidence of nothing in particular. We don't know where and how big your school is, what department you're in, etc. It's doubtful you're interacting with the entire student population.

OttawaU and CarletonU, 40,000/30,000 students. I'm all over the place there and my partner is student ambassador. I'm in engineering while she's in social sciences.

Of course it's anecdotal... it's my own observation. Feel free to provide your own observations. I don't recall finding any concrete studies on what students use, so that's all I have. Go to the library at your local college/university, or the cafeteria, lounges, study areas, walk through the dorms, look in the lectures... see for yourself. And those are the places you'd expect to see iPads first.

Most surprising is how many bland, cheapo laptops I see on campus. I'd say it's still about 1/3 MacBooks... more popular in the Arts programs than in the hard sciences for sure. I don't see very many Surfaces, either, which I had expected to as well.

And I know many departments in the past made really dumb knee-jerk technology recommendations. My wife went to an ivy league school in the mid 2000s for her master's degree in a non math/science field. The dept said it "required" all students to have a particular laptop model: the absolute highest priced, most tricked-out 15" laptop that Dell sold at the time. She used about 1/20th of its capability.

Perhaps that was the case. Now, they don't advise anyone what to get as far as I can tell. The only advice they ever give was that if you have a Mac, you'll need Bootcamp/VM with Windows for some of the software we use in engineering.

iPad has multitasking of course, and can connect to most wireless accessories. And clearly an external monitor is optional to getting a college degree. They're not day trading.

Multitasking on an iPad gets horrendously cumbersome the more stuff you need access to.

The 9.7" screen is quite small to begin with, and apps that do let you split means you have two windows each the size of a postcard (half that again if using the on-screen keyboard).

You can't connect to external monitor (which is a massive help if your screen is going to be <10"), no mouse, and thumb drives (yes, it's still something occasionally required to work with). We just got hit with a ransomware attack at Carleton that caused wifi outages, so we had to use one for a final presentation.

No matter what field you're in, you'll be researching and producing. It's normal to have at least a few things open at a minimum: the file you're working on, the instructions file, reference material (possibly etextbooks or something), and browser(s) with multiple tabs for research.

Then you might also need room for communication apps (skype, facetime, google hangouts, imessage) if you're working with people; graphing/calculation software, previous submissions that you're referencing material from, image/diagram software, reference material in the form of audio/video files (such as interviews), etc.

I could go on all day, but you get the idea. No matter what field you're in, you'll be doing a good chunk of that. iOS is absolutely great at doing many things (such as annotation, reading, viewing content), it quickly becomes very tiring and cumbersome to have to deal with more than a few things at a time.

Even the 13" MacBooks can start to feel cramped for space when working on assignments that involve more resources. My partner sometimes borrows my 17" (only to later tell me it's too heavy), but we dock them to a 27" 1440p monitor with mouse and keyboard when at home so as to make the best use of time.

Ironically, one of my favorite uses for my iPad is as an external monitor for my MacBook. :p It's great for e-texts as well since it's so much easier to carry. It's all about using the tools that make your workflow as efficient, ergonomic, and effective as possible so as to not waste time.
 

M. Gustave

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2015
1,856
1,712
Grand Budapest Hotel
I'm in engineering...

The typical student critic of iPads here is always either in engineering or CS. And that makes perfect sense, you need a mac/PC for that, mostly. But I think those are very atypical fields for their technology requirements. "It can't run xcode" is well outside most peoples' needs.

Anyway, I did my undergrad in the years when the "internet" was still just a bunch of bulletin boards. All my research was done by reading books. It's possible!! :rolleyes:
 
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Kostas3000

macrumors regular
Sep 28, 2016
140
186
New York
The typical student critic of iPads here is always either in engineering or CS. And that makes perfect sense, you need a mac/PC for that, mostly. But I think those are very atypical fields for their technology requirements. "It can't run xcode" is well outside most peoples' needs.

Anyway, I did my undergrad in the years when the "internet" was still just a bunch of bulletin boards. All my research was done by reading books. It's possible!! :rolleyes:


you obviously missed Altis' point that:
"No matter what field you're in, you'll be researching and producing. It's normal to have at least a few things open at a minimum: the file you're working on, the instructions file, reference material (possibly etextbooks or something), and browser(s) with multiple tabs for research.
.... iOS .... quickly becomes very tiring and cumbersome to have to deal with more than a few things at a time"

I couldn't agree more with Altis' point.

And by the way, from my academic experience in health sciences, there is not a single student who uses iPad as the main device, unfortunately.
 

Altis

macrumors 68040
Sep 10, 2013
3,165
4,896
The typical student critic of iPads here is always either in engineering or CS. And that makes perfect sense, you need a mac/PC for that, mostly. But I think those are very atypical fields for their technology requirements. "It can't run xcode" is well outside most peoples' needs.

Anyway, I did my undergrad in the years when the "internet" was still just a bunch of bulletin boards. All my research was done by reading books. It's possible!! :rolleyes:

I don't deny that we could all do with a little more book reading, indeed. I don't actually need to use my computer quite as much as you'd expect in engineering since much of it is done on paper (obviously not AutoCAD).

But every time my partner writes a paper in the social sciences, she has all sorts of stuff open that she uses for referencing and such. That's college/university work -- research, collaborate, produce.

We both have iPads and they're great tools for what they're best suited at.

I could probably frame a house with a Swiss Army knife -- but it would be a lot more tedious than it would need to be, wouldn't it? ;)

Heck, it's no different when using paper: I'll have my textbook(s) open, a large notepad to work with, my class notes, previous assignments, etc, all open on the desk in order to work. How tedious would it be if I could only have one of those in front of me?
 

M. Gustave

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2015
1,856
1,712
Grand Budapest Hotel
I could probably frame a house with a Swiss Army knife -- but it would be a lot more tedious than it would need to be, wouldn't it? ;)

Heck, it's no different when using paper: I'll have my textbook(s) open, a large notepad to work with, my class notes, previous assignments, etc, all open on the desk in order to work. How tedious would it be if I could only have one of those in front of me?

You should buy the tool you need to get your tasks done. It's that simple. For many the iPad is the right tool. For an engineering student, probably not.

If an iPad is "tedious" to you, you're either attempting to use it for something it wasn't designed for, or in a way it wasn't optimized for, or you aren't familiar enough with iOS to get the most out of it.
 

Kostas3000

macrumors regular
Sep 28, 2016
140
186
New York
You should buy the tool you need to get your tasks done. It's that simple. For many the iPad is the right tool. For an engineering student, probably not.

If an iPad is "tedious" to you, you're either attempting to use it for something it wasn't designed for, or in a way it wasn't optimized for, or you aren't familiar enough with iOS to get the most out of it.

You are offering 3 explanations, where in all 3 of them you blame the user as though he did something wrong.
No, he was just trying to use the iPad as a "pc replacement" following Apple's recommendations.
The iOS software limitations are still so pronounced that make the use of iPad for academic/college work TEDIOUS.

That is Apple's fault._
 

GoldfishRT

macrumors 6502a
Jul 24, 2014
611
349
Somewhere
I'm a defender of the iPad as a productivity tool but I find most of @Altis points, well, on point.

I love my iPad. In day to day productivity it's good. It's great for note taking in class and most of my creative works.

But that said, I cannot get rid of my MacBook Pro. I'm going for an English major with an emphasis in technical writing. The iPad can be used for the sorts of papers I've got to write on a regular basis. However, it's cumbersome. There's no good way to handle having 10+ journals open, plus web references, multiple versions of my work, and my notes in a way that is satisfactory. It can do most of it, it's just slow. I say that as somebody who has been more than happy to adjust a large part of my workflow in an attempt to only use the iPad (and my opinion of that has soured the more I've tried).

Actually, I'm slowly working on a very in-depth piece specifically about how I learned to love the iPad Pro and why I can't use it. ;)
 

Mainsail

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2010
2,346
3,112
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this is incorrect:


rMB starts at $1300. You can get an iPad Air 2 new for $450, and a really nice case and keyboard for another $100. So your math is way off, even if you upgrade to the iPad Pro 9.7.



I disagree. I think the variety of work environments you're describing really calls for a more flexible form factor than a traditional laptop. This is where the iPad excels. Study group at the coffee shop? Leave the keyboard at home. Long typing session in the library? Bring it.


To be clear, I have nothing against the iPad, but I don't think it is fair to compare over 2 year old technology in the iPad Air 2 on sale to the full retail price of a new rMB. If this is going to be your main productivity machine, I would compare the iPad Pro 9.7 128GB ($700) plus say Logitech create keyboard case ($130) plus pencil ($100): $930 over 3 year life to rMB $1300 over 5 year life. I really don't think you are saving anything. Now, if you don't need a keyboard case and pencil, I agree...but the premise of my post was based upon an individual that needed an external keyboard for most of their use.

As for college, I am way to old to give a first hand account....However, I have two kids at University, and they would never take an iPad over a MacBook to school. Also, they have tons of college friends and none use an iPad as their primary device.....it's laptops all the way (primarily MacBooks). Of course my source is anecdotal, and I am sure there are people using tablets as their main device for college, but I think it is the rare exception.
 

sdz

macrumors 65816
May 28, 2014
1,220
1,546
Europe/Germany
I must add in here, yes it is good at consumption, but it is also outstanding at productivity! Here are just a few things that I find my iPad dominates my PC (which by the way hasn't been used in 4 years!).

- I fly through email,
- Am more creative in Advert creation in Pixelmator and Pages
- Am better at creating presentations in Keynote
- Faster to set up confrence calls with my sales team with Zoom
- More product and faster to collaborate with projects in, collaboration though Pages, number and Keynote.
- Faster to communicate with staff via iMessage
- More productive in capturing client notes and critical information via Notability
- Faster to search and pull information from Safari
- Much faster to find data sheets via iCloud Drive

Go with iPad, but I would say go with Pro if you can, for me 12,9 is the way forward!

Interesting use cases! May I ask you if you use a central MacOS Server to secure and manage all communications and data with your staff or do you use iCloud services for that ?
 

iPadDad

macrumors 6502
Sep 8, 2014
313
156
Interesting use cases! May I ask you if you use a central MacOS Server to secure and manage all communications and data with your staff or do you use iCloud services for that ?

We use iCloud, the message history per user in iMessage more than suffices for us. I also think iCloud's security is really good.
[doublepost=1482146904][/doublepost]
I'm not sure, but @Dan50, did you ever answer this question? The Consumption vs Creation Holy War has been raging now for a few days.

@Dan50 hahaha i agree with @jeremiah256 you haven't answered the question, you have the power to end this war!
 
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M. Gustave

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2015
1,856
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Grand Budapest Hotel
To be clear, I have nothing against the iPad, but I don't think it is fair to compare over 2 year old technology in the iPad Air 2 on sale to the full retail price of a new rMB. If this is going to be your main productivity machine, I would compare the iPad Pro 9.7 128GB ($700) plus say Logitech create keyboard case ($130) plus pencil ($100): $930 over 3 year life to rMB $1300 over 5 year life. I really don't think you are saving anything.

Even in your example, one would be saving $370. And of course, it could be debated whether one needs 128GB of storage. With cloud based storage, and minimal locally stored entertainment, I've gone two years with a 16GB iPad Air 1 as my main productivity device.

As for college...

Did the OP say they were in college? I must have missed that.
 

Mainsail

macrumors 68020
Sep 19, 2010
2,346
3,112
Even in your example, one would be saving $370. And of course, it could be debated whether one needs 128GB of storage. With cloud based storage, and minimal locally stored entertainment, I've gone two years with a 16GB iPad Air 1 as my main productivity device.



Did the OP say they were in college? I must have missed that.

Well, in my example, you do save $370 upfront but you pay more over the long run because iOS devices typically have a shorter life than Mac OS devices.....not always, but for most users.

The OP hasn't been clear about his use case, but I was making a point about different needs for different users. There are some people that do not need a keyboard most of the time, and they can get plenty of stuff done using touch on a tablet. There are other people, like students, that spend a huge amount of time typing on a keyboard, and it would be much less practical for them to select an iPad over a laptop....then, I just gave some anecdotes to support my impression....which is all it is...my impression/opinion based largely on my kids' experiences at university.

BTW - The premise of my original post was pretty simple: If you plan on using a keyboard most of the time (over half), then you are probably better off buying a MacBook rather than an iPad. I think the reasons are pretty clear.
 
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Ghost31

macrumors 68040
Jun 9, 2015
3,338
5,144
Well, in my example, you do save $370 upfront but you pay more over the long run because iOS devices typically have a shorter life than Mac OS devices.....not always, but for most users.
say that to my daughter and her iPad Air from 2013 that is still going strong and probably will for at least a couple more years.

Then...say something to me and my 2016 MacBook Pro with tons of issues of which I've had to return 3 times
 
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iPadDad

macrumors 6502
Sep 8, 2014
313
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Well, in my example, you do save $370 upfront but you pay more over the long run because iOS devices typically have a shorter life than Mac OS devices.....not always, but for most users.

The OP hasn't been clear about his use case, but I was making a point about different needs for different users. There are some people that do not need a keyboard most of the time, and they can get plenty of stuff done using touch on a tablet. There are other people, like students, that spend a huge amount of time typing on a keyboard, and it would be much less practical for them to select an iPad over a laptop....then, I just gave some anecdotes to support my impression....which is all it is...my impression/opinion based largely on my kids' experiences at university.

BTW - The premise of my original post was pretty simple: If you plan on using a keyboard most of the time (over half), then you are probably better off buying a MacBook rather than an iPad. I think the reasons are pretty clear.

I hear what you are saying but I disagree, if you are going to do a large amount of typing, get a keyboard, it's still not going to be more expensive than Mac
 
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Mathias Denichi

macrumors 6502
Jun 21, 2013
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637
You are offering 3 explanations, where in all 3 of them you blame the user as though he did something wrong.
No, he was just trying to use the iPad as a "pc replacement" following Apple's recommendations.
The iOS software limitations are still so pronounced that make the use of iPad for academic/college work TEDIOUS.

That is Apple's fault._
You can't change a zealots mind.

As much as I love the iPad, the multitasking isn't the greatest, but it's getting better. I think the iPad Pro split screen is leaps and bounds ahead of even the 13" MacBook Pro which has very few programs that are compatible, unlike windows 10.

Example for me is working on a magazine file in indesign with a word doc open to copy the editors text. This doesn't split screen on macOS but does on windows 10. I returned my 13" MacBook Pro for this, because there is not enough screen real estate until there is more support for universal split screen.

Currently, the only choices in the the Apple product lines; if screen space and more than three separate windows are in use, is the 15" MacBook Pro, or the iMac. Otherwise, it makes sense to use a cheaper windows generic laptop for the portability and the window splitting alone.
 
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Brammy

macrumors 68000
Sep 17, 2008
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That's anecdotal evidence of nothing in particular. We don't know where and how big your school is, what department you're in, etc. It's doubtful you're interacting with the entire student population.

I work at a large medical university. Usually in the caf I see a 50/50 split of Macs and Windows. I've seen two of the new Macbook Pros. I've never seen a 12.9" iPad Pro in the wild. The closest was a test 12.9" iPad we gave someone but I've never seen it actually used.
 

M. Gustave

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2015
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I work at a large medical university. Usually in the caf I see a 50/50 split of Macs and Windows. I've seen two of the new Macbook Pros. I've never seen a 12.9" iPad Pro in the wild. The closest was a test 12.9" iPad we gave someone but I've never seen it actually used.

a) OP never said they were a student, so this whole side discussion is off topic.

b) As I said above, universities & professors aren't known for their cutting edge technology recommendations. If you look at the High School level, there's much wider experimentation with new tech: iPad and Chromebooks primarily. Many schools do 100% of their assignments online, and offer notes, videos, and review.
 
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rowspaxe

macrumors 68020
Jan 29, 2010
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Sometimes you have to try a device out in real world usage situations to see if it accomplashes what you need it to.
not really. ever buy a car? i understand apple caters to this practice, but I find it selfish and wasteful. I am considering buying an ipad. I have made a couple of visits to the apple store, and i am considering how
this product might help with my work. When I feel I am ready I will make an informed decision.
 

DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
12,826
6,880
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
This cannot be said enough. The image in people's minds that the iPad is just a toy needs to die. A lot of us do real work on them and actually find them better experiences than a laptop

Well that "toy" perception would actually die when 'people like you' actually chime in stating what you use it for.

I'm VERY curious, honestly because Unless these MBP's just announced allow for 4 TB3 ports in the 13" and or Quad Core CPU's in the 13" the 15" is super expensive. I'm really eyeing the iPad Pro ... but I need to create music starting next month ... a love of mine for decades yet the equipment always escaped the capability of my pockets. This year big changes will kill all the roadblocks.

I'm ideally looking for something as modular and powerful as Logic and not undermined like GarageBand (Guitar Tutor seems to be gone).
 
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