Should Macs get Apple Pencil support?

[Joe Dohn]

Actually this is better. By forcing folks to return the non-functional pencil to Apple, it will be dealt with in the most responsible way. Making something with replaceable batteries mean the masses (which aren’t particularly environmentally conscious) would be buying and throwing away, not recycling, millions of batteries. Until it’s assured that the majority are recycling, giving them less to throw away is ideal.

You're assuming the only option is to make a stylus with a battery.

Wacom makes them passive; their stylii have all the features the Apple Pencil does, but will last forever and won't need to be charged.

Isn't that more green? Why doesn't Apple do it too?

Samsung's stylii are also passive, by the way; when do have a battery, but it's only used for wireless features. If it dies, you can still use them for drawing.

So, the real issue here is a moral issue. Apple wants to force you to upgrade to make a quick buck. But it doesn't work in their favor because users can just buy something that is cheaper (Huion tablets), has batteries that can be easily replaced (e.g, this styluis from Heyo, which is almost identical to the Apple Pencil inside: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264824998141) or is completely passive (Samsung, XP Pen, Wacom).

 

[MayaUser]

macs should get apple pencil support for their trackpads that are now large enough to be useful

 

[Joe Dohn]

Or, pay Apple $29 to take the pencil and provide another one.

Replacing the iPad doesn't cost just $29 for people outside the us. In Brazil, for example, that replacement would instead cost you $50 (yes, double the price) as of 2022 (I couldn't find the update prices as of 2023).

That's to offer something that is a non-issue for Samsung, XP Pen or Wacom.

Not to mention that under Windows, pens actually follow the Windows Ink protocol. That means any pen will be compatible with any tablet that supports it. So, if you have a Surface tablet, you have a wide range of options.

 

[kasakka]

For now it is, but what happens when Apple stops making them?

Any new unused pencils would go into deep discharge, and since swapping the battery is very difficult, you would either be forced to buy a knockoff (without pressure sensitivity, most likely) or to buy a new iPad. Or to send your pencil to Thailand to have its battery replaced (which will be more expensive than buying a new one).

There is still a "new old stock" or "used" market for a lot of old gear that is no longer produced. So I don't see it as much of a problem. By the time it gets actually hard to get a 1st gen Pencil, you most likely have moved on anyway.

 

[Joe Dohn]

There is still a "new old stock" or "used" market for a lot of old gear that is no longer produced. So I don't see it as much of a problem. By the time it gets actually hard to get a 1st gen Pencil, you most likely have moved on anyway.

As we were discussing, the problem with "new old stock" is that the batteries will go into deep discharge mode when unused. This means that any Apple Pencils that are new old stock will go bad and eventually die.

Of course, you COULD tear them apart, re-solder the battery and replace the casing, but I don't think people are willing to do that.

Also, I'm against this mentality of FORCING the user to upgrade. From a drawing tablet perspective, the iPad is a mature product; there's no reason to force users to upgrade, especially when you consider companies like Wacom. Their 20-year old tablets STILL work today if you want to use them.

 

[spac3duck]

In light of Mark Gurman's recent report that Apple was working on developing touchscreen Macs (which we previously thought was never going to happen), would it be too much to ask if Macs got Apple Pencil support? If I bought a MacBook Pro with Apple Pencil support and the ability to run Procreate, I'd sell my iPad Pro. What's the point of iPads anymore? No matter how high end the hardware is, the iPad is always going to be a bad computer and it's Apple's fault because they keep neglecting the software, especially considering that the iPad is now no longer less expensive than a decently specced laptop. Besides, most Macs have much more screen real estate than an iPad, so you have more freedom to draw a masterpiece. Even if the iPad had decent software, the software upgrade would nuke the iPad's already terrible battery life to the point of being unusable when unplugged, so the battery life of recent MacBooks would be a huge advantage anyways. So why not just give the MacBook Pro Apple Pencil support (and maybe Face ID if you can figure out how to fit the components into such a thin display lid) and call it a day?

Controversial opinion here: I'd prefer Apple bring full Apple Pencil support to the trackpads of the MacBook Pros. (essentially the apple equivalent of a Wacom tablet)

While the experience would not be the same as using an iPad, I feel it would be a suitable hybrid option for a more tactile drawing experience instead of just using your finger for a 'quick signature' on a PDF document. (Yes, I'd prefer the MBP screen to not have touch capabilities hence the compromise of using the large trackpad)

 

[Joe Dohn]

Controversial opinion here: I'd prefer Apple bring full Apple Pencil support to the trackpads of the MacBook Pros. (essentially the apple equivalent of a Wacom tablet)

While the experience would not be the same as using an iPad, I feel it would be a suitable hybrid option for a more tactile drawing experience instead of just using your finger for a 'quick signature' on a PDF document. (Yes, I'd prefer the MBP screen to not have touch capabilities hence the compromise of using the large trackpad)

A tempting thought, but the drawback is that the trackpad has a very small active area for drawing. Artists sometimes need large, swift motions for drawing – which is why some of them will go for larger drawing tablets. Sometimes a compromise is possible, but not in the case of the trackpad. It would only allow for signatures for very casual handwriting without fatiguing your hand.

 

[kasakka]

A tempting thought, but the drawback is that the trackpad has a very small active area for drawing. Artists sometimes need large, swift motions for drawing – which is why some of them will go for larger drawing tablets. Sometimes a compromise is possible, but not in the case of the trackpad. It would only allow for signatures for very casual handwriting without fatiguing your hand.

Yeah the old Wacom tablets with small sizes were awful to work with. Even though the Apple trackpad is large (too large if you ask me), it's still smaller than a typical drawing tablet was which I think started from A5 or A6 size and only the A4/A3 sizes to me were actually good to use.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

You're assuming the only option is to make a stylus with a battery.

My only assumptions are that Apple currently ships an Apple pencil with a rechargeable battery (this is a correct assumption because they do) and that most people don’t recycle (this is likely correct). As a result, rather than to trust those folks, who don’t recycle, to responsibly recycle a device with user replaceable batteries, it’s better for the environment that they provide the device to Apple, and Apple provides a replacement and handles the returned pencil.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Replacing the iPad doesn't cost just $29 for people outside the us. In Brazil, for example, that replacement would instead cost you $50 (yes, double the price) as of 2022 (I couldn't find the update prices as of 2023).

Replacing the pencil? If that’s what you meant, then, given the exchange rate, I’m actually surprised it’s not more than that.

Not to mention that under Windows, pens actually follow the Windows Ink protocol. That means any pen will be compatible with any tablet that supports it. So, if you have a Surface tablet, you have a wide range of options.

Yes, you’re right, Apple Pencil support SHOULD come to the Mac.

 

[Joe Dohn]

Replacing the pencil? If that’s what you meant, then, given the exchange rate, I’m actually surprised it’s not more than that.

It's not the exchange rate. If you consider the exchange rate, the amounts are always the same.
I'm considering the added taxes and extra profit stores add. In local prices, this would be around BRL 250.00 (Brazilian Reais).

 

[cthompson94]

I don't think touchscreen or pencil support should come to the Mac screens, there is a reason the devices like Wacom tablets are a stable product on the market because anyone who truly feels they need a pen to help with whatever they are doing it won't be on a vertical screen that is insanely thin. In my own personal experience I have never seen someone actually touch their windows laptop screen for anything besides maybe hitting "next" or "play" from a move/tv series most possible inputs on a both Mac OS and Windows by default have pretty small ones especially compared to a finger.

If I remember correctly didn't touchscreen laptops start becoming a thing when windows 8 specifically because it had that much larger tile design built around touchscreen as flawed as it was.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

In my own personal experience I have never seen someone actually touch their windows laptop screen for anything besides maybe hitting "next" or "play"

Considering how many times that’s done, though, that’s a huge time savings from “waggle mouse, find cursor, move cursor to where it should be, click, miss, move cursor slightly again, click”.

Then consider, want to type something in the URL bar? “Waggle, find, click”
See a link you want to click? “waggle, find, click”
Want to close a window? “waggle, find, click”
Unless, of course, they remember the key commands

 

[subjonas]

In light of Mark Gurman's recent report that Apple was working on developing touchscreen Macs (which we previously thought was never going to happen), would it be too much to ask if Macs got Apple Pencil support? If I bought a MacBook Pro with Apple Pencil support and the ability to run Procreate, I'd sell my iPad Pro. What's the point of iPads anymore? No matter how high end the hardware is, the iPad is always going to be a bad computer and it's Apple's fault because they keep neglecting the software, especially considering that the iPad is now no longer less expensive than a decently specced laptop. Besides, most Macs have much more screen real estate than an iPad, so you have more freedom to draw a masterpiece. Even if the iPad had decent software, the software upgrade would nuke the iPad's already terrible battery life to the point of being unusable when unplugged, so the battery life of recent MacBooks would be a huge advantage anyways. So why not just give the MacBook Pro Apple Pencil support (and maybe Face ID if you can figure out how to fit the components into such a thin display lid) and call it a day?

I’d pay out the wazoo for a MacBook Pro with native pen support, as someone who needs to draw using desktop-only drawing software. But the form factor would need to change of course. Currently I’m using a Surface Laptop Studio which has a form factor I find almost perfectly ideal for my uses, except I wish the secondary hinge could lock in 90 degree position (I’m planning to 3D print something to keep it locked). I also wish it was bigger as it’s only 14”. If Apple made something like this, I’d sell the SLS in a heartbeat. But not holding my breath.

 

[subjonas]

Take this use case. You’re typing a post on MacRumors. You want to select a word previously typed to replace.
Touch: Double-tap the word, type the replacement
Pointer: Waggle the pointer to find out where it is, move it to the word, double-click, replace

The first will always be faster than than the second… see, tap, done.

But if you do know where the pointer is, it’s somewhat comparable.
But also much less energy/(edit- more) ergonomic to keep your arm down using a mouse/trackpad, which is important for working for long periods.

 

[subjonas]

Isn’t it easier to just run macOS on an iPad? I mean the only difference is the form factor and OS between an iPad and a MacBook Air/pro.

There’s a considerable difference between iPads and MacBooks (especially with MacBook Pro) in terms of thermals. iPads are thinner, plus the display is adjacent to the other internal components.

 

[subjonas]

You're assuming the only option is to make a stylus with a battery.

Wacom makes them passive; their stylii have all the features the Apple Pencil does, but will last forever and won't need to be charged.

Isn't that more green? Why doesn't Apple do it too?

Samsung's stylii are also passive, by the way; when do have a battery, but it's only used for wireless features. If it dies, you can still use them for drawing.

So, the real issue here is a moral issue. Apple wants to force you to upgrade to make a quick buck. But it doesn't work in their favor because users can just buy something that is cheaper (Huion tablets), has batteries that can be easily replaced (e.g, this styluis from Heyo, which is almost identical to the Apple Pencil inside: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264824998141) or is completely passive (Samsung, XP Pen, Wacom).

I’d love for Apple to use Wacom-like battery-less technology, but Wacom owns the patent. Samsung licenses the pen tech from Wacom. Apple doesn’t seem to like licensing.

I do wish Apple made all their products, especially the small products, easier to change the battery for the environment’s sake. I know someone whose Pencil battery completely died from lack of use, and Apple wouldn’t replace the battery. Such a waste.

 

[Joe Dohn]

I’d love for Apple to use Wacom-like battery-less technology, but Wacom owns the patent. Samsung licenses the pen tech from Wacom. Apple doesn’t seem to like licensing.

There are many other things they could do, from supporting Windows Ink (thus allowing a universal pen protocol to be used, and you being free to use whatever stylus you want), to using another passive technology, like a pressure pen based on sound (like the SonarPen: https://www.sonarpen.com/), to simply designing their stylii to use rechargeable AAA or AAAA batteries.

There's just no excuse to designing their pencil the way they did other than greed.

Oh, I JUST learned the Surface battery is replaceable, by the way: https://www.amazon.com/XP-Pen-Battery-Free-Passive-Stylus-G430（S）/dp/B015FHH41K

 

[Unregistered 4U]

But if you do know where the pointer is, it’s somewhat comparable.
But also much less energy/(edit- more) ergonomic to keep your arm down using a mouse/trackpad, which is important for working for long periods.

Nah, even if one left it just an inch or two away in the same text box, because the OS makes it invisible when you start typing, there’s still a waggle just to make the cursor visible to see that “yes, it IS nearby”, then a mouse over, then click. And if the OS is set so that the cursor is always visible? There’s still that scan of the screen to find it (which is why OS’s have the option of making the cursor bigger when you waggle it, in case you don’t see it).

ALL of that when the interface element the user wants is RIIIGHT there. Able to be directly interacted with instead of through an intermediary. That’s why the other poster posted “I have never seen someone actually touch their windows laptop screen for anything besides maybe hitting ‘next’ or ‘play’”. That they touch the screen at all when they don’t HAVE to shows the value/efficiency of momentary touches every now and then. Might even aid with repetitive stress injuries as the user finds their own balance between using a cursor and touching the screen.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I’d love for Apple to use Wacom-like battery-less technology, but Wacom owns the patent. Samsung licenses the pen tech from Wacom. Apple doesn’t seem to like licensing.

Likely because when you’re making as much money as Apple is, companies see that as a blank check during renegotiations to extend the license. So, where possible, I can see how they’d avoid licensing as much as possible.

I do wish Apple made all their products, especially the small products, easier to change the battery for the environment’s sake. I know someone whose Pencil battery completely died from lack of use, and Apple wouldn’t replace the battery. Such a waste.

So people can throw countless used up batteries in landfills? If they didn’t leave the Apple pencil with Apple and instead threw it in the trash, that’s actually WHY folks shouldn’t be provided with extra things to discard.

 

[Joe Dohn]

So people can throw countless used up batteries in landfills? If they didn’t leave the Apple pencil with Apple and instead threw it in the trash, that’s actually WHY folks shouldn’t be provided with extra things to discard.

Apple WILL discard them anyway, but the difference is that they will throw the stylus AND the battery away, not just the battery.

But if Apple wants to recycle my batteries so bad, why don't they allow the Apple Pencil to be opened, and then I send the old battery to them, and they will discard it?

If they're not willing to do it for free, just charge a symbolic fee. Simple!

Since they offer so much resistance to that, my next purchase will be one of the competitors that either offers a passive technology OR a replaceable battery.

 

[MacCheetah3]

So people can throw countless used up batteries in landfills? If they didn’t leave the Apple pencil with Apple and instead threw it in the trash, that’s actually WHY folks shouldn’t be provided with extra things to discard.

Apple WILL discard them anyway, but the difference is that they will throw the stylus AND the battery away, not just the battery.

I think, @Unregistered 4U is driving at the apparent wasteful mindset we see in the iPhone section, mentalities such as:

“[software_title] says the battery health is at 94%. I need to get my battery replaced."
“It lasts five minutes less than what I remember. Why do Apple batteries suck so much!? I already need a new one."

then I send the old battery to them, and they will discard it?

If they're not willing to do it for free, just charge a symbolic fee. Simple!

While possible, a person following through with such claims is skeptical at best. I don’t bring every battery/electronic device to proper disposals/recyclers — not that it’s a magical/perfect solution but the effort is relevant.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Apple WILL discard them anyway, but the difference is that they will throw the stylus AND the battery away, not just the battery.

Yes, but NOT in your local landfill. And likely will discard only the pieces parts which can’t be reused which is much better than discarding the entire thing.

But if Apple wants to recycle my batteries so bad, why don't they allow the Apple Pencil to be opened, and then I send the old battery to them, and they will discard it?

Yes, but they REALLY can’t count on everyone doing that. I’ve heard they take all manner of electronic devices back at the Apple Store, for free. I’m sure that’s only because they know, unfortunately, not many folks will take them up on it.

Since they offer so much resistance to that, my next purchase will be one of the competitors that either offers a passive technology OR a replaceable battery.

This is, of course, the way the market works! Folks that want to throw batteries in a landfill always have options to buy devices that provide opportunities for them to do so!

 

[Pakaku]

Drawing on a Mac in its current form is absolutely ridiculous and would require a form overhaul, and not everyone wants a form that's designed for writing or drawing.

If you want to draw or write on a Mac, you're better off buying an actual drawing tablet, like a Wacom or Huion, because those are actually designed with drawing and writing in mind.

 

[Joe Dohn]

Yes, but NOT in your local landfill. And likely will discard only the pieces parts which can’t be reused which is much better than discarding the entire thing.


Yes, but they REALLY can’t count on everyone doing that. I’ve heard they take all manner of electronic devices back at the Apple Store, for free. I’m sure that’s only because they know, unfortunately, not many folks will take them up on it.


This is, of course, the way the market works! Folks that want to throw batteries in a landfill always have options to buy devices that provide opportunities for them to do so!

Your cynism is unbelieavable.

All the parts of the stylus are good except for the battery. And yet, I'm forced to throw it all away because of a design decision. But because it's Apple, their decision is automatically good just because it's them who are throwing those device parts away.

But never mind that: if being green is so important in this argument, then why doesn't Apple make their stylus passive?
And don't tell me it's because they would have to pay Wacom a license: XP Pen ALSO has a passive technology which doesn't rely on Wacom. That would be much greener – except for Apple's wallet, maybe.