'Sight-seeing' is not a good enough reason to visit the UK?

[killerrobot]

I'm pretty sure Catalan was made official before 2006? The Constitution of 1978 recognises Castilian Spanish as the official language of Spain, but also allows for co-official languages if the autonomous communities so designate them. I'm not sure of the year, but I'm pretty sure Cataluña would have very quickly afforded itself Catalan as a co-official language.

The problem with your claim is that the Spanish government didn't count catalán as a language. It wasn't even really considered a full dialect until recently. The co-official language of Cataluña was English. Also, to further the problems, valenciano is a whole other entire dialect that is barely getting its due recognition at the moment. It is not the same as catalán. You would severely get an earful from either region claiming they are the same.

I've lived in Spain for many years and in fact I was in Barcelona during the elections last year, so I'm sure catalán was NOT an official language. This year was also the first year there was an option for those that wanted to to take university entrance exams and exit exams in catalán, because it was finally made official last year.

Sure many people speak it, but it doesn't make it official. Spanish in the US is only an official language in Florida I believe, even though there's up to 80% hispanic population in several border states and where Spanish is a dominate language over English in many cities.

Good luck with your visa application and all that stuff. It will be a long and painful process, but just have lots of patience. You'll get use to it all sooner or later. Just don't stress out about it. The Spanish don't.

 

[Queso]

The Estatut of last year was the first time Catala was given preference to Castellano as the language for Government business. In all other areas of life the two languages were given equivalence, as in the 1979 version.

1. Catalonia's own language is Catalan. As such, Catalan is the language of normal and preferential use in Public Administration bodies and in the public media of Catalonia, and is also the language of normal use for teaching and learning in the education system.

1. The language of Catalonia is Catalan.
2. The Catalan language is official in Catalonia, as also is Spanish, which is official throughout the Spanish State.
3. The Government of Catalonia will ensure the normal and official use of both languages, will take the measures necessary in order to ensure knowledge of them, and will create the conditions making it possible for them to achieve full equality in terms of the rights and duties of citizens of Catalonia.

Source

 

[killerrobot]

Great find dyna -- I'm all straightened out now about the elections. However the "equivalence" of the two before that is still questionable. I guess I'm looking at officialness at more a linguistic approach than political. Got to hit the history books some more.

Back to the OP - it's funny people were rejected a visa because they didn't speak English when the UK doesn't have an "official" language -- nothing written into law I believe about English as the official national language?

 

[guifa]

The problem with your claim is that the Spanish government didn't count catalán as a language. It wasn't even really considered a full dialect until recently. The co-official language of Cataluña was English. Also, to further the problems, valenciano is a whole other entire dialect that is barely getting its due recognition at the moment. It is not the same as catalán. You would severely get an earful from either region claiming they are the same.

I've lived in Spain for many years and in fact I was in Barcelona during the elections last year, so I'm sure catalán was NOT an official language. This year was also the first year there was an option for those that wanted to to take university entrance exams and exit exams in catalán, because it was finally made official last year.

Sure many people speak it, but it doesn't make it official. Spanish in the US is only an official language in Florida I believe, even though there's up to 80% hispanic population in several border states and where Spanish is a dominate language over English in many cities.

California only just recently became a state with a majority minority population but it still doesn't remotely reach 80% Hispanic (Texas is 35% Hispanic, Arizona 26%, New Mexico 43%, California 35%, Florida 20%). Florida's only official language is English. There are only two parts of the US where Spanish is official (Puerto Rico and New Mexico), and even one of them is still debated as to whether it really is official (New Mexico). I find it hard to believe though that Catalán was never used in Schools (and even more unbelievable that English was coöficial in Cataluña??), since I've talked to numerous people my age who grew up being taught in Catalán, although this was in the Islas Baleares. Also it seems dynamicv has quoted the constitution for me re Catalán's status. Also in Cataluña is Aranés, which was made official in 1991 (Ley 16/1990 de 13 de julio, título I, artículo 2 §1, "1. El aranés, variedad de la lengua occitana y propia de Arán, es oficial en el Valle de Arán. También lo son el catalán y el castellano, de acuerdo con el artículo 3 del Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña.")

Whilst the Valencian/Catalonian peoples might disagree about the languages, their respective academies do not. The Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua has stated that Valencian is the same language as Catalan, with simply a different historical name (thus equatable with about half the Spanish-speaking world calling their language "castellano" and the other half "español").

 

[killerrobot]

California only just recently became a state with a majority minority population but it still doesn't remotely reach 80% Hispanic (Texas is 35% Hispanic, Arizona 26%, New Mexico 43%, California 35%, Florida 20%). Florida's only official language is English. There are only two parts of the US where Spanish is official (Puerto Rico and New Mexico), and even one of them is still debated as to whether it really is official (New Mexico).

Awesome info. thanks. I must have read that Florida was wanting to pass it, and assumed it passed. Stupid me. Also, I meant cities with 80% hispanic population, not states (sorry-I know you can't read my mind.)

I also have lots of friends from Cataluña, my age who where educated in English. I believe this started because Spanish, according to my friends, although there was "equality" among languages, was being pushed more than catalán within schools. So schools rebelled, completely against Spanish and taught English, and made it an official language -word of mouth from my friends, guess they meant official for the school. As you can see, co-official (guess I over stepped on the English assumption, my bad) really meant nothing until more recently when the government could finally practice and write laws in catalán.

The Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua has stated that Valencian is the same language as Catalan, with simply a different historical name (thus equatable with about half the Spanish-speaking world calling their language "castellano" and the other half "español").

According to the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua, "Els diferents parlars de tots estos territoris constituïxen una mateixa llengua o sistema lingüístic." (page 15 in the gramática normativa valenciana) My valenciano isn't the best, but I'm sure that says the different speakers of the various regions your mention, form a linguistic system -- meaning they have similiar origins and therefore many similarities. It doesn't say they are the same. In fact it elaborates the differences on page 115, 137, 255, 357, and 366. Also, there is a complete other dialect in the Balearic Islands -- el dialecto balear, which is not the same as catalán.

There is also difference between castellano and español. Look up the definitions on DRAE. It's not totally a "historical" concern. There's also a huge difference between calling something a dialect and a language. Something that even the best websites often confuse.

Also, Spain has a population of 40 million - basically the only country that would call it castellano (although not everyone does), leaving about 400 million calling it español (also not everyone does, seeing as how now hispano-american countries are now trying to give it their own names --Chile is trying to make it officially chileno. Of course I read that in the news as well so who knows whether to believe it or not. So all in all, I wouldn't exactly say half and half.

PS --I wasn't ever trying jump down anyone's throat or sound superior. Sorry if I came of that way.

 

[0098386]

There's not even that much to see here, why would they bother?

You cannot say that and live around Manchester it's one of the best cities I've been in for diverse culture, varied architecture, great university and shopping. Then you have Wales less than an hours drive away, the Peak District (I live just on the edge of it), Lake District a bit further, the moors and the wilderness around it. It's fantastic up here. Makes me sad to leave it.

Not keen on the south though. I like the forests, but I'm a hill fan

 

[Queso]

You cannot say that and live around Manchester it's one of the best cities I've been in for diverse culture, varied architecture, great university and shopping. Then you have Wales less than an hours drive away, the Peak District (I live just on the edge of it), Lake District a bit further, the moors and the wilderness around it.

Not to mention it's only six miles from Edgeley Park

Yeah, Manchester has a lot going for it. To be honest I'd rather be living there than London.

 

[0098386]

And Lime (Lyme?) Park and all the rest. Chatsworth House melts me everytime I see it

What I like about Manchester opposed to anywhere else I've been is the huge number of landmarks and beauty spots with a population not too big to feel "full".

And another! Last time I went up to Saddleworth Moors, I descended into a little valley and just sat on a rock overlooking a brook. It's only about 15 miles from Manchester but it's utter silent and void of human touch. Soon as you ascend you can see the towers of the city down below. Beautiful.

 

[Queso]

And Lime (Lyme?) Park and all the rest. Chatsworth House melts me everytime I see it

Lyme Park!!! Excellent!!! I suppose they no longer have the pulley slide. That thing was so cool back when I was younger. Like being on The Krypton Factor, only without that bloke from North West Tonight

 

[0098386]

Speaking of which, I just googled Lyme Park and lolled at

Oh, and of course the town of Hadfield. When I first went there I was just in shock at seeing one of my fave comedies in the flesh and bone.

 

[Queso]

Oh, and of course the town of Hadfield. When I first went there I was just in shock at seeing one of my fave comedies in the flesh and bone.

Were you.....local?

 

[killerrobot]

Yeah, Manchester has a lot going for it.

Yeah, like Manchester United. I'd die to see them play -- I mean if there were a riot and all at the game And I'm sure this is blasphemous, but I'd settle to see a game with Manchester City as well if I had to.

 

[SMM]

Sorry - I just haven't been too impressed with England. I suppose an arguement could be made for the Lake District, but elsewhere just didn't call to me. Some of the people there are great, no doubt, but flying somewhere to sight-see just the people is kind of creepy.

Now Scotland....that's the place to be.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but yours really pushes the limit. There are so many incredible places throughout the U.K. You must have been in one of those tour buses.

 

[Queso]

Yeah, like Manchester United. I'd die to see them play -- I mean if there were a riot and all at the game And I'm sure this is blasphemous, but I'd settle to see a game with Manchester City as well if I had to.

You'd be the only one there if you went to see City. The news here is full of fans saying they've had enough and are staying away in future

Come to Edgeley Park. That's the real Temple of English Football.

 

[Jaffa Cake]

Come to Edgeley Park. That's the real Temple of English Football.

He's right, you know – every other weekend it's full of wretched souls praying for salvation.

 

[Queso]

He's right, you know – every other weekend it's full of wretched souls praying for salvation.

I don't really have to say a word in response, do I?

 

[0098386]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but yours really pushes the limit. There are so many incredible places throughout the U.K. You must have been in one of those tour buses.

Or too young? I never cared for "sights" until I was 16 and went to the Isle of Mull with my aunt and uncle for a few days. It opened my eyes and I realised I had taken all my previously UK-based holidays for granted

 

[72930]

Who cares about castles and stuff...we have the MacRumors picnic!

 

[guifa]

According to the Acadèmia Valenciana de la Llengua, "Els diferents parlars de tots estos territoris constituïxen una mateixa llengua o sistema lingüístic." (page 15 in the gramática normativa valenciana) My valenciano isn't the best, but I'm sure that says the different speakers of the various regions your mention, form a linguistic system -- meaning they have similiar origins and therefore many similarities. It doesn't say they are the same.

Actually it does. Mateixa means "same": "The different speeches of all these territories constitute a single language [Spanish: "una misma lengua", lit a same language] or linguistic system."

In fact it elaborates the differences on page 115, 137, 255, 357, and 366. Also, there is a complete other dialect in the Balearic Islands -- el dialecto balear, which is not the same as catalán.

There is also difference between castellano and español. Look up the definitions on DRAE. It's not totally a "historical" concern. There's also a huge difference between calling something a dialect and a language. Something that even the best websites often confuse.

Exactly, Valencian/Catalan/Balearic = dialects of a single language whose name happens to be different in all regions, although Balearics, or rather the Ibizans as I've not spent much time in Menorca or Mallorca, have always told me they speak the Ibithenco dialect of Catalan.

Also, Spain has a population of 40 million - basically the only country that would call it castellano (although not everyone does), leaving about 400 million calling it español (also not everyone does, seeing as how now hispano-american countries are now trying to give it their own names --Chile is trying to make it officially chileno. Of course I read that in the news as well so who knows whether to believe it or not. So all in all, I wouldn't exactly say half and half.

Except that according to the Spanish Wikipedia http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Castellano-Español.png, in Latin America, Venezuela, Equador, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Argentina also use castellano as the name of their language. This of course isn't 100%, but neither is it for Mexicans called theirs "español". Based on the 2005 population estimates of each of the Spanish speaking nations, I totalled up 189.6 million calling it castellano, and 206.5 calling it español. That's close enough to half and half for me.

Anyways, back on top. Wouldn't a better reason for the British immigration folks to turn people down be because it's so expensive? I read that a tube ticket costs three quid? That's ridiculous, round trip anywhere would be roughly 12 bucks. Unless a tube ticket is good for say, like three hours for all forms of public transit, commuter train, metro, and bus. When I was in Edinbourgh they were charging about 22 pound for the quicky tour of the castle. Food wasn't as bad price wise, certainly not Parisian prices, but still not as low as German or Spanish. It's not just that the exchange rate is terrible, it's that there's no semblance of price parity.

 

[SMM]

Or too young? I never cared for "sights" until I was 16 and went to the Isle of Mull with my aunt and uncle for a few days. It opened my eyes and I realised I had taken all my previously UK-based holidays for granted

Many American visitors to the U.K. miss the experience. They go to the tourist attractions, and miss the wonder that is before them.

I have a sure-fire way to see the U.K. and really appreciate it.

1) Do your homework well in advance. Send away for an Ordinance Map so you can locate the places you wish to see, and plot the driving time, and distances between them. Allow yourself at least 1-2 days at each location.

2) Get a copy of "The Best bed and Breakfasts In The World" for the U.K. Find B & B's near each place you intend to go. B & B's allow you to actually meet people and learn about the local history and meet fellow travelers. From them you will receive a wealth of helpful information; the best local ale, marvelous places to visit, the best places to eat, etc. You may also meet future life-long friends, as I have done. Make your reservations before you leave!

3) Stay away from cities, except for day excursions. Spend your time in small rural towns. VISIT THE LOCAL CHURCHES. This is where much of the history is maintained. They are always open and I have never felt a visit was wasted.

4) Plan for, and take a few walks through the countryside. England has over 50,000 miles of walking trails. They were established before property ownership was established. The trails cross through private property, but the public has free right-of-way. Landowners must provide gates and maintain the trails. They are not allowed to discourage walkers in any way (dogs, bulls, etc).

5) Learn the customs before you go. Many Americans have a stereotype view of the English. They believe them to be distant, snobbish and cold. That is the exact opposite of the truth. They have what few Americans possess, good manners. There is an old saying, "The sun never sets on the British Empire". I have a newer version, "The sun never sets on an English friendship".

Some of my favorite places:

1) The small towns and villages of Hertsfordshire.
2) Northumbria - the beautiful rolling hills, small valleys, Hadian's Wall..
3) Cornwall - even with development, it is like stepping into a time-warp
4) North Sea Coast - take a long beach-walk from Sea Houses to Holy Island
5) York - you can spend days just walking the streets
6) Yorkshire Moors - an incredible place where history and fiction have become inseparable over the ages
7) Wye River Valley - beautiful and steeped in history. It is the boundary of the Forrest of Dean and Wales.
8) The Channel Coast - so many places to see - I spent an entire day at Hastings, walking the the battlefield of 1066
9) Coswolds - you could spend your entire vacation here
10) Bath - many tourists, yet it should not be overlooked.
11) Salisbury - an incredible place, especially for those who have done some homework

I could go on for a long time. The U.K. has so much to offer. Those who are planning a holiday there, do some research before you go.

 

[Queso]

Wouldn't a better reason for the British immigration folks to turn people down be because it's so expensive? I read that a tube ticket costs three quid? That's ridiculous, round trip anywhere would be roughly 12 bucks.

Although a zone 1 single ticket on the Tube now costs £4, you're missing an important point. England is far more that just London. London is a world city as well as the UK capital, therefore it's ridiculously overcrowded and priced accordingly. To see England you need to get outside of the M25.

As a comparison you can cross the whole of Greater Manchester from Trafford to Oldham for £3 on the Metrolink. Food and drink is also way cheaper than in the capital.

 

[killerrobot]

@guifa -- to stop hijacking this thread, I started a new one here

Once again, my apologies to everyone that wants to talk about England for the previous interruptions. Should´ve done this sooner.

 

[0098386]

As a comparison you can cross the whole of Greater Manchester from Trafford to Oldham for £3 on the Metrolink. Food and drink is also way cheaper than in the capital.

Are you from Oldham?

Anyways - if you buy a DaySaver bus ticket you can even get from Woodford way up to Shuttleworth and Whitworth. People mock public transport in Britain, but at least it's fairly cheap and you can get pretty much anywhere.

 

[guifa]

Although a zone 1 single ticket on the Tube now costs £4, you're missing an important point. England is far more that just London. London is a world city as well as the UK capital, therefore it's ridiculously overcrowded and priced accordingly. To see England you need to get outside of the M25.

As a comparison you can cross the whole of Greater Manchester from Trafford to Oldham for £3 on the Metrolink. Food and drink is also way cheaper than in the capital.

Oh, I know England is more than London, in fact of the cities I've not yet been to in the Isles, London is at the bottom of my list. (Much like Paris was at the bottom of my France list until I unfortunately got stuck there on a layover. Four days of my life I want back) It's more that with the terrible exchange rate and lack of PPP, things are still quite expensive. But it is good to know that elsewhere the public transit rates aren't quite as high. I couldn't imagine paying £8 roundtrip, although I'm certain there are discounts for en masse tickets (Metro Madrid gives almost 40% off for buying 10 in advance, as such 0,60-0,65 € per trip, which makes it around a pound per round trip IIR my exchange rates correctly).

I much more of a small town person and if it weren't that it'd feel like a waste of going to places near big cities without going to certain places (the castles, museums, cathedrals, etc) I'd spend most all of my time much farther away from them. That's why I'm really looking forward to my job in Spain, since I'll be in a much smaller town and a good distance away from the city of Madrid (the job is in the CA de Madrid tho).

 

[Southerner]

raggedjimmi,

You've said you weren't keen on the South. I understand about London, it's kinda hellish there. But what about Gloucestershire's Cotswolds, Somerset, Devon, Dorset, Cornwall and Hampshire's New Forest - all beautiful to see!

I would have to say the South tends to get far better weather than up North anyway. I remembered having to travel up to Blackpool by train from Bournemouth all in a day which it was warm and sunny in Bournemouth then to arrive in Blackpool that it was bucketing down with rain and felt chilly!

I wouldn't call Saddleworth as beautiful as it's an infamous murder scene after all plus Manchester can get a tad grimy in the dark winter months anyway.