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Just for clarification on my part, will I be able to install SL at all. I'm not sure what OpenCL is, but I'm willing to do without just to have all the new bells and whistles.

unless it's cooler to have opencl
 
Just for clarification on my part, will I be able to install SL at all. I'm not sure what OpenCL is, but I'm willing to do without just to have all the new bells and whistles.

unless it's cooler to have opencl

you will most definitely be able to install SL. any intel mac w/ 1GB of RAM can.
 
So the passively cooled 9400M in the iMac is allowed?

Yes - but the importance is that the GPU is adequately cooled, not whether it is passive (in the chassis airflow) or cooled by a heatpipe and dedicated fan.

Considering the timing, it should have been clear to the engineers designing the 9400M systems that OpenCL was coming, and that they had to consider the thermal output of the GPU under heavy, sustained load. Mostly likely, OpenCL was a big factor in deciding to move to Nvidia chipsets.

(The point of the Imac picture was to call into question the earlier claim that it didn't matter whether the watts were used in the GPU or CPU.)
 
Yes - but the importance is that the GPU is adequately cooled, not whether it is passive (in the chassis airflow) or cooled by a heatpipe and dedicated fan.

Considering the timing, it should have been clear to the engineers designing the 9400M systems that OpenCL was coming, and that they had to consider the thermal output of the GPU under heavy, sustained load. Mostly likely, OpenCL was a big factor in deciding to move to Nvidia chipsets.

(The point of the Imac picture was to call into question the earlier claim that it didn't matter whether the watts were used in the GPU or CPU.)
It's still possible to have a high load across all components without OpenCL though. You're telling me that Apple's engineers didn't take that into account as well?

Why do people keep saying that the components would overheat under OpenCL but won't in other situations? I've encoded DVDs in Handbrake and gamed simultaneously before. It's entirely possible to place 100% load on those components regardless.
 
Yes - but the importance is that the GPU is adequately cooled, not whether it is passive (in the chassis airflow) or cooled by a heatpipe and dedicated fan.

Considering the timing, it should have been clear to the engineers designing the 9400M systems that OpenCL was coming, and that they had to consider the thermal output of the GPU under heavy, sustained load. Mostly likely, OpenCL was a big factor in deciding to move to Nvidia chipsets.

(The point of the Imac picture was to call into question the earlier claim that it didn't matter whether the watts were used in the GPU or CPU.)
I still think you are placing to much focus on thermal considerations as a limitation to H.264 and OpenCL acceleration. It is highly unlikely that H.264 or OpenCL could exceed the thermal output of a GPU fully loaded in OpenGL.

In the case of H.264, most of the GPU isn't even being utilized. For example, in the lowly HD2400XT, H.264 is handled by a dedicated subunit called the Unified Video Decoder. The UVD is basically an integrated Xilleon video processor, which was originally designed for set-top boxes and flat screen TVs. These embedded applications don't tolerate extremely high-thermal loads and so it's hard to see the UVD being a concern.

Similarly, OpenCL just doesn't make use of as much of the GPU as OpenGL for things like games or even Core Image. OpenGL can load up all subunits of a GPU (except maybe the video decoder), including memory and caches, the stream processors to run shaders, and notably the texture units and ROPs to manipulate the image. Doing computation work with OpenCL doesn't make use of the texture units and ROPs freeing up thermal room. A GPU is designed for graphics first so it isn't surprising that only OpenGL can fully make use of all the transistors in a GPU.
 
That's what I was just thinking - kinda sucks doesn't it!
Glad SL only costs $29 because this is one of the main things I was looking forwards to... :(

I am beginning to wonder if it is even worth $29. It is clearly a cheap upgrade, and I may do it if my software requires it, but otherwise my X3100 BlackBook is unable to take advantage of both OpenCL and H264 acceleration. I will probably wait to see if it really speeds up other programs or adds enough minor features to make the upgrade worth it.
 
what does this mean for average joe user such as myself? Should I upgrade before the masses find out that my white macbook with the intel X3100 graphics doesn't cut it? Or is this really not a big deal :confused:
edit: I use my macbook for the stuff that 90% of people out there use a computer for. I'm not a video editor/etc.

I'm pretty sure then, that you'd be right. You have a recent, excellent machine and it should do what you want it to do even with Snow Leopard.
 
Loss of Innocence

This is an excellent point and the actual truth is that Apple isn't doing anything Microsoft hasn't already done (as well as just about any other OS maker). There are no assurances from any computer manufacturer that you'll be able to exploit all features in some OS release many months in the future.

There were lots of PC sold in the weeks prior to Vista's release that could not run it's Aero interface. How is that any different than what Apple's doing with OpenCL? . . .

Nothing. It's just a splash of cold water in the face for those who have drunk too deeply of the Apple Kool-Aid. Call it a loss of innocence or a coming of age.

I have yet to be really contented with an Apple laptop since the introduction of the G4 Titanium PB. I am now waiting for Apple to reinstate the ExpressCard slot and matte screen on the 15" and to enact on-the-fly switching between integrated and dedicated graphics without having to log in and out, among other wishes (e-SATA/USB port). Then I will be happy.
 
Not that I know of. Apple is infamous for releasing minor software improvements while screwing over people who just got a new machine a year ago.

That's because they make their BIG money off selling you the HARDWARE not the software. So they have every incentive to try and force you to buy as much hardware as often as they can possibly get you to do it, not to try and make your life more pleasant by making OS X faster and more efficient and support older computers (e.g. say like the G5 machines, some of which are only around 3 years old and faster than many lower-end Intels). Your G5 Quad isn't supported anymore? We have this nice Mac Mini we could sell you....

Apple was right about one thing. Snow Leopard isn't a huge step forward. But it's not just an efficiency update either. It's actually a huge step backward...in terms of market share. Some estimates still put anywhere from 35-50% of the Mac market share as being older PPC machines. So with one stroke of the keyboard, Apple has reduced their market share from 9% to around 4.5%-6%. And that's supposed to be a good thing? That's right. They don't care about market share, just how much profit they're raking in from one quarter to the next.

The problem with that attitude is the same as that from GM and Chrysler, really. Sooner or later, your market share drying up equates to bankruptcy. Apple used to have near 20% of the market share in the late '80s. Along came Windows 95 and reduced that to less than 4% in less than 5 years. Right now OS X is riding high from the clunky disaster that is Vista plus the cachet of the hit iPhone. But for ever hit like the iPhone or iPod, Apple has had at least twice as many failures (Newton, Pippin, Lisa, etc.) So if it took less than 5 years for Apple to lose 15% of the 20% of the market share it once had, how much faster is it going to fall from 5% of the market share it will have once Snow Leopard comes out? 5% could disappear in less than two years if Windows7 is a big hit or within 5 if it's "just OK" (i.e. as good as or somewhat better than XP). Apple had the chance to increase it's market share much faster than it did during this time, but instead chose short-term profits over long term market share. Windows can afford to have a "flop" like Vista and people will still buy it because they HAVE TO and because it take a much longer time to lose share when you have 90% of the market.

For those that think PPC will live on while regular Leopard gets a few more updates and that software will continue to be made for awhile for them as Universal Binaries, this isn't going to be the case. Universal Binaries worked because developers basically got the PPC version for free. But supporting new features of Snow Leopard will mean branches in the development tree and who wants to BOTHER supporting Leopard a year or two from now, let alone release PPC binaries that can suck up twice the disk space and have to alter their development tree to do so? The answer is NOT MANY. For all intensive purposes, I would estimate over 80% of the commercial software being newly released for the "Mac" will not support PPC period within 1 year of Snow Leopard's release. Yes, Apple will release updates to iTunes and some security updates for a couple of years and I'm sure Firefox will support Leopard for years to come, but your G5 Quad has seen its last days and you won't be able to sell it for squat now because it's now designated to be unsupported.

I'm sure if there were competitors to Apple in the HARDWARE department (I mean machines that can run OS X, not Windows which IRRELEVANT to this discussion) that Apple wouldn't so quick to ditch support and/or not bother to support slightly old hardware with new features. It's BECAUSE they have an incentive to make you buy hardware all the time that they do these things. It would make a lot more sense for a "small update" like "Snow Leopard" to support PPC for one last update (that would then shove G5 Quads into the 5 year cycle range for the next OS X version) and the mere fact that Snow Leopard is FASTER and MORE EFFICIENT would plainly mean that even G4s would run better with it than they do with the current Leopard. But none of that logic matters (and no taking up a little bit more disk space is not a good reason when you can get a 1.5TB drive for $120 or less so spare me the 'it saves disk space BS arguments'). The ONLY thing that matters is that Apple pushes its fanatics into buying ever more hardware. What they should be doing is trying to attract a lot more switchers, but Apple knows that its most ardent supporters won't touch Windows no matter how good Windows7 or 8 might be. It's more of a religion. And what do you do with religious zealots? You SOAK THEM FOR ALL THEY'RE WORTH. Watch any TV evangelist to see what I mean. Half of them end up in jail for their greed. Apple is no different. It didn't get $30 billion in petty cash by being generous or by caring about its customers. It got there by soaking their customers regularly and by thwarting and litigating its way out of all competition for hardware for its core OS X market.

Welcome to the real world. Apple is not your friend. They are your addiction dealer. Quitting Apple to go back to Windows is about the same as quitting smoking cigarettes. Only about 8-10% of the truly addicted will succeed. But recent switchers will find it much easier, especially since to go back to Windows all they need to do is reboot into it. The ardent faithful hate Windows too much to do that. But even half of them will boot into it in order to play a game (since Apple doesn't care about providing gaming support in OS X or selling hardware that is really suited for it; too bad if anyone else wants to sell you that hardware, though. Apple won't allow it).
 
I'm sure if there were competitors to Apple in the HARDWARE department (I mean machines that can run OS X, not Windows which IRRELEVANT to this discussion) that Apple wouldn't so quick to ditch support and/or not bother to support slightly old hardware with new features. It's BECAUSE they have an incentive to make you buy hardware all the time that they do these things. It would make a lot more sense for a "small update" like "Snow Leopard" to support PPC for one last update (that would then shove G5 Quads into the 5 year cycle range for the next OS X version) and the mere fact that Snow Leopard is FASTER and MORE EFFICIENT would plainly mean that even G4s would run better with it than they do with the current Leopard. But none of that logic matters (and no taking up a little bit more disk space is not a good reason when you can get a 1.5TB drive for $120 or less so spare me the 'it saves disk space BS arguments'). The ONLY thing that matters is that Apple pushes its fanatics into buying ever more hardware. What they should be doing is trying to attract a lot more switchers, but Apple knows that its most ardent supporters won't touch Windows no matter how good Windows7 or 8 might be. It's more of a religion. And what do you do with religious zealots? You SOAK THEM FOR ALL THEY'RE WORTH. Watch any TV evangelist to see what I mean. Half of them end up in jail for their greed. Apple is no different. It didn't get $30 billion in petty cash by being generous or by caring about its customers. It got there by soaking their customers regularly and by thwarting and litigating its way out of all competition for hardware for its core OS X market.

I'd rather they charge more for the hardware. The advantage with this approach is that once I've purchased a Mac I'm not constantly hounded to provide my "credentials" a la Microsoft's Genuine Advantage. Because my "tax" has been paid in hardware I'm free to run my software without fear of a rogue "GA" server causing problems. I find it odd that many of you are talking out both corners of your mouth. If Snow Leopard is a step backwards then why are complaining? Methinks thou doth protest too much. You want Snow Leopard...you feel like a jilted lover that didn't get asked to the Prom and you're on here unleashing invective at Apple and contradicting yourself at every turn. Even if Mac marketshare was 50% PPC (which I highly doubt) Snow Leopard is $29 so what kind of massive profits do you really think Apple's going to make here? You haven't created a conclusion (that is logical) that fits within your premise that leaving PPC users behind is somehow going to have deleterious effects on Apple.

Apple had %20 marketshare with the Apple I, II, III series of computers. They never had %20 marketshare with Macs. Microsoft was already established with Windows while Apple transitioned from the Apple computers to the Lisa and then Macintosh. Of course Macintosh was delivered in 1984 but at that time the dominant OS was Microsoft's DOS which then attained GUI "Mac like" features with Windows 30 in 1990 . The Mac never had marketshare that it lost to Windows, this is a common fallacy perpetrated by those who forget their amongst others that were living during that era and following the computer world.

Am I no less a fanatic for wanting new hardware as you for preserving your hardware? Am I no less a zealot?
 
I'm beginning to really question why the normal user (internet, e-mail, movies, office suites) should even upgrade to Snow Leopard at this point. It seems to be more of a developer direction than anything. $29 pricepoint says so.

Apple should have just called it Leopard Pro and been done with it.
 
I'm beginning to really question why the normal user (internet, e-mail, movies, office suites) should even upgrade to Snow Leopard at this point. It seems to be more of a developer direction than anything. $29 pricepoint says so.

Apple should have just called it Leopard Pro and been done with it.

Speed

The Finder has been rewritten it displays icons faster, and has one feature i've wanted for a while. The ability to set whether Spotlight searches happen only in a particular folder or more global.

Faster wifi login, wakeup from sleep or shutdown. Mail is much faster and Stacks now has a scrollbar.

Media

Quicktime X -Hardware accelerated on many newer computers but more fleet footed even if you don't have acceleration. Plus it doesn't look like there will be a Quicktime Pro saving you $29 right there.

Video Screen capture and iPod/AppleTV export options

Footprint

Gives me 6GB of my HDD space back. Installs faster.

PDF handling

Trying to copy text in colums won't suck anymore. Better markup tools and scanner support.

Internet

Safari doesn't implode when a rogue plugin goes haywire.

And probably a hundred other things that I don't know about. It's basically taking Leopard and polishing it. I bet the stability is going to improve and reports are the performance is great.

$129 dollars....I'd think twice..more likely thrice. $29 bucks ..why would I prevent myself from enjoying more computer more for a measly $29. That's a night out for two without the alcohol tab.
 
The acceleration possible from OpenCL should be far greater than Grand Central, if developers bother to use it. nvidia have had their CUDA for ages and it hasn't generated a whole lot of interest.
 
I sure hope Snow Leopard and OPENCL would give smoother playback of 1080p mkv file than this one here (played on 2008 MacBook Unibody) :



3618503765_aae4639556_b.jpg
 
... and please don't forget GCD! Your graphics card may not be supported but every Intel Mac has at least two cores and will be able to take advantage of GCD.
Actually, not true. The 1st gen Core Solo-based Mac Minis are one of the few NON-dual core Intel Macs out there.
 
Considering the timing, it should have been clear to the engineers designing the 9400M systems that OpenCL was coming, and that they had to consider the thermal output of the GPU under heavy, sustained load.

as opposed to engineers missing this forethought of an "opencl world" and made gpu's incapable of heavy, sustain loads -- essentially overheating the chip and making it useless, if "non-graphics" task are sent to it, which is what opencl allows developers to do?

Mostly likely, OpenCL was a big factor in deciding to move to Nvidia chipsets.

And not CUDA?
 
Look at the history...

as opposed to engineers missing this forethought of an "opencl world" and made gpu's incapable of heavy, sustain loads -- essentially overheating the chip and making it useless,...

May I suggest a few searches on the web:

  • (436,000 hits) "macbook air core shutdown"
  • (802,000 hits) "macbook overheat"
  • (438,000 hits) "macbook game overheat"
  • (39,700 hits) "macbook game overheat shutdown"
  • (310,000 hits) "imac overheat"
  • (36,600 hits) "imac overheat shutdown"
  • (202,000 hits) "macbook burns legs"
  • (20,700 hits) "macbook severe burns"
  • (74,700 hits) "macbook melts desk"
After you've read a few of those replies, come back and tell us how confident you are of Apple's thermal engineering team.

Apple has a pretty dismal track record with thermal issues running *expected* loads.
 
May I suggest a few searches on the web:

  • (436,000 hits) "macbook air core shutdown"
  • (802,000 hits) "macbook overheat"
  • (438,000 hits) "macbook game overheat"
  • (39,700 hits) "macbook game overheat shutdown"
  • (310,000 hits) "imac overheat"
  • (36,600 hits) "imac overheat shutdown"
  • (202,000 hits) "macbook burns legs"
  • (20,700 hits) "macbook severe burns"
  • (74,700 hits) "macbook melts desk"
After you've read a few of those replies, come back and tell us how confident you are of Apple's thermal engineering team.

Apple has a pretty dismal track record with thermal issues running *expected* loads.

i rest my case.

ur examples don't count b/c those computers are not running Snow Lepoard.

u can go home now!
 
May I suggest a few searches on the web:

  • (436,000 hits) "macbook air core shutdown"
  • (802,000 hits) "macbook overheat"
  • (438,000 hits) "macbook game overheat"
  • (39,700 hits) "macbook game overheat shutdown"
  • (310,000 hits) "imac overheat"
  • (36,600 hits) "imac overheat shutdown"
  • (202,000 hits) "macbook burns legs"
  • (20,700 hits) "macbook severe burns"
  • (74,700 hits) "macbook melts desk"
After you've read a few of those replies, come back and tell us how confident you are of Apple's thermal engineering team.

Apple has a pretty dismal track record with thermal issues running *expected* loads.
Apple's computers needlessly hot without Snow Leopard. Stop the presses.
 
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