So does the new ATV do 24p?


peterjcat

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Jun 14, 2010
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No, it doesn't output 24p. The pulldown judder is one more reason to keep buying Blu-rays for me. But most people don't seem to notice.
 

heliocentric

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Nov 26, 2008
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still not a viable purchase if you want to play bluray rips then :(

Although I guess it would be ok for dvd rips...
 

steve-p

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Oct 14, 2008
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I wonder what it would do if you manually set Apple TV to output 1080p/50Hz. A lot of modern TVs can do both 50Hz and 60Hz, and 24fps to a multiple of 25 can be somewhat easier.
 

kiranmk2

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Oct 4, 2008
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It's probably safer not to have a separate 24p option but instead simply incorporate it into the Auto setting. I recommend people fill out the feedback form on the Apple website to let Apple know we want this feature:

http://www.apple.com/feedback
 

peterjcat

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Jun 14, 2010
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It would be even better if "Auto" tried to match the output refresh rate with the source framerate, but it doesn't -- it just switches permanently to the preferred refresh rate reported by the display.
 

141077

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Jul 1, 2011
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Excuse me but I don't understand the problem. Can someone explain me why the Apple TV has problems with 23,976 fps movies?
 

heliocentric

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Nov 26, 2008
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if it's outputting 60 frames, but the source is 23.976, each frame of the source lasts for 2 1/2 frames of the output. it's trying to make each frame match up that leads to problems.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#2:3_pulldown
has a good graphic that explains is.
I think you mean 60hz right?

The ATV outputs 30 frames (60hz) or 25 frames (50hz)...

I don't understand why they wouldn't include 24p?! Isn't their 1080p content encoded at 23.976?
 

BeatCrazy

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Jul 20, 2011
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I think you mean 60hz right?

The ATV outputs 30 frames (60hz) or 25 frames (50hz)...

I don't understand why they wouldn't include 24p?! Isn't their 1080p content encoded at 23.976?
The new ATV does output 60 frames. 24p can be too problematic for casual users. The 1080p60 output from 1080 p24 looks pretty good to me.
 

heliocentric

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The new ATV does output 60 frames. 24p can be too problematic for casual users. The 1080p60 output from 1080 p24 looks pretty good to me.
It does not output 60 frames. It outputs 60hz which is 30 frames.



30 frames is a long way from 24p, which causes judder and frame skipping...

I don't understand, why is 24p problematic?
 

Ballis

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May 27, 2008
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I think you mean 60hz right?

The ATV outputs 30 frames (60hz) or 25 frames (50hz)...

I don't understand why they wouldn't include 24p?! Isn't their 1080p content encoded at 23.976?
60hz = 60 frames. Its 720 or 1080 P. The P is short for Progressive. 30 frames equaling 60hz as you say, would be i (as in 1080i) where the i is short for interlaced.

720P and 1080P @ 60 hz = 60 Progresive / Full frames a second
1080i (or any other interlaced signal) @ 60 hz = 60 interlaced / half) frames a second.
 
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heliocentric

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What commercial content out there on dvd or bluray is 60 frames per second? Its either 24, 25 or 30 isnt it?

and to output 30 frames it should be set to 60hz, in the uk everything is 25 frames (50hz)...

anyway here is a picture that shows the 24p at 60hz problem -



I really thought once we hit 1080p on the atv they would of allowed true 24p...
 

141077

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Jul 1, 2011
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Do you think 24p support could come with a future update or is it somehting the hardware has problems with?
 

GenesisST

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Do you think 24p support could come with a future update or is it somehting the hardware has problems with?
I would say to both. SJ was quoted saying that "Bluray was a bag of hurt". So I don't think his company would support it.

Maybe a good conversion when doing the rip would be needed, via, say, Handbrake.

I don't know if my TV does it, but I know my amp has a Faroudja chip that handles it for me.
 

heliocentric

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I would say to both. SJ was quoted saying that "Bluray was a bag of hurt". So I don't think his company would support it.

Maybe a good conversion when doing the rip would be needed, via, say, Handbrake.

I don't know if my TV does it, but I know my amp has a Faroudja chip that handles it for me.
It shouldn't have anything to do with bluray though.

I wonder is it possible to convert a 24p file to 25 or 30 to make it compatible?
 
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BeatCrazy

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It does not output 60 frames. It outputs 60hz which is 30 frames.
See below.

60hz = 60 frames. Its 720 or 1080 P. The P is short for Progressive. 30 frames equaling 60hz as you say, would be i (as in 1080i) where the i is short for interlaced.

720P and 1080P @ 60 hz = 60 Progresive / Full frames a second
1080i (or any other interlaced signal) @ 60 hz = 60 interlaced / half) frames a second.
I will do more experimenting this evening. I only got my ATV last night. I do have a 1080p24 movie in my iTunes that played just fine on the ATV.
 

heliocentric

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I will do more experimenting this evening. I only got my ATV last night. I do have a 1080p24 movie in my iTunes that played just fine on the ATV.
Thanks, that would be interesting...

I may be wrong on a few things and right on a few things on this subject. It's a bit of a minefield really.

All I can say is in the past when I have tried to play 24p content through atv it judders and skips occasionally (on shots that pan scenery it's most obvious).
 

MacinJosh

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Jan 29, 2006
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You guys need to have a 120hz TV to be able to test 24p. Even if the ATV did support 24p but you had a 60hz TV, a pull down would be done. So make sure your TV can display true 24p when you report back.
 

Ballis

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All I can say is in the past when I have tried to play 24p content through atv it judders and skips occasionally (on shots that pan scenery it's most obvious).
Well this will be the case on any device with 24p content. Maybe slightly less so with a player that supports native framerate playback, but it will still be evident. Why do you think TV manufacturers all include Frame Interpolation nowdays? Or why do you think Peter Jackson shoots the hobbit @ 48 fps? (source: http://insidemovies.ew.com/2011/04/12/the-hobbit-48-frames-peter-jackson/). The fact is, 24p is a bag of hurt, either way you try and view it. Its simply not enough frames to provide smooth playback during fast moving scenes. To deal with it, max out your FI settings on your TV or Projector, and pray more directors do as Peter Jackson, and start filming at decent speeds.
 

peterjcat

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Jun 14, 2010
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You're right that a 60Hz display will get no benefit from 24Hz output, but it doesn't have to be 120Hz -- any multiple of 24 will do. Eg Pioneer plasmas have done 72Hz forever and in PAL regions there are quite a few 96Hz ones.

iTunes store content is mostly 23.976fps in my experience so 24Hz output would have made sense IMO. Most recent video SOCs have 1080p24 capability so there's a chance it might be enabled in a firmware update but because the ATV is basically an iPhone in a box, it might not have the same capabilities.
 

peterjcat

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Jun 14, 2010
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Why do you think TV manufacturers all include Frame Interpolation nowdays? Or why do you think Peter Jackson shoots the hobbit @ 48 fps
They include frame interpolation to reduce smearing on crappy LCD panels. Native 48fps is another story but so far ~100% of movies have been shot at 24fps and the answer isn't frame interpolation, it's displaying the material as it was shot.